130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

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dragoongfa
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by dragoongfa »

The 1 AU distance has been retconned to an estimated 64 solons distance from the star, a little more than 1 light minute, which as a distance is 1/3 of the distance between sun and mercury. The Shells jumped danger close.

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Arioch
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by Arioch »

1 AU was meant to be the diameter of the entire system. That's what the transit times are based on.

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icekatze
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

So, at 64 light solon, that's about 69.888 light seconds. Around that distance, given Sol mass white dwarf, the gravitational pull is about 0.302 m/2^2 That's nothing to scoff at, but not unreasonably close either.

Myrddin
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by Myrddin »

Krulle wrote:Since current knowledge tells us nothing about how gravity contorts realspace for hhyperspace transitions, whetever Arioch tells me, I'll accept.
For the story, and since that science simply is unknown, as of now.
Seems to me that's the issue - the given explanations don't make sense.

Attempting a deep jump into a white dwarf system should be less dangerous, not more, than attempting to do so into a red giant of the same mass.

Outside the red giant's diameter, the slope of the wells should be equivalent for the two cases, and inside the red giant's diameter - well you've already collided with the red giant, whereas you at least still have a chance of re-entering realspace outside the white dwarf.
Last edited by Myrddin on Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:48 am, edited 1 time in total.

harlequin2262
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by harlequin2262 »

I assumed it was more of a function of gravity in general more than the White/Red comparison.

Essentially, the low gravity means that there's a very limited acceptable zone of ingress from hyperspace. You need to get very close to the star's well to overcome the limited gravity.

To recall the diagram of the hyperspace 'well' in the Insider page, the White Dwarf would have a very shallow, very narrow 'dip', and thus be a difficult target. Assuming a certain dispersion on the X-Axis of the same diagram, one can see that such a small target is difficult to hit.

koliup
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by koliup »

I wrote a whole nice thing about the misconceptions and confusion in this thread, but it was eaten by the auto log-off.
So I'm going to do this again a whole lot less fancy and talky-like because my brain hurts now.

Image
See the above picture? Same mass, different radius. We don't care what goes on 'inside' the radius because if you're there you are dead - inside a star, or inside a black hole, or inside a rock. Or about to be.
Note that both possess different gravitational values at their 'surfaces' (r=1's surface was cut off when i made the image - but it's down there) - like how white dwarves have greater surface gravity than equivalent red dwarves, and differently sized black holes have different tidal forces at the event horizon.
Now note that both possess the same curve, except where the radius intersects the gravitational curve. From this we can deduce that it is mass, not size, that will be the largest determinate of how an object defines the jump-routes leading to it. And the only determinate of the precise shape of the gravity well in places outside the radius.
Except size does matter - sufficiently large objects have less 'room' for travelers to land when they jump, compared to smaller objects of the same mass. Deep jumps may or may not be easier - but there is less room for defenders to be uncertain about.
Caveat for my model and math: I looked at the masses as point masses - looking at them as proper 3d masses may result in changes for especially large AND heavy objects.
Finally: For gravity wells which are small and heavy to not follow this, generally, the gravitational constant must change as a function of something.
While the system's white dwarf may appear to have a 'narrow but deep' gravity well, it is actually just a regular gravity well for its mass, but with lots and lots of 'free space' to 'land' in. As an aside - I'm surprised we don't see any Umiak vessels in the space between the deep jump and regular jump groups - some ships coming up short wouldn't have been a surprise.

My math, done on Desmos:
Image
I apologize for the use of constants like that. The gravitational constant was omitted/rolled into m2 for ease on my eyes.

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Corpsman_of_Krieg
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by Corpsman_of_Krieg »

Regarding the jump diagram posted previously, specifically with the depiction of a gas giant interfering with what I suppose you could call “optimal glidepath” for a hyperspace transient craft’s reentry vector, does this mean that star systems where gas giants exist create a sort of natural defensive topography that makes inbound jumps all the more dangerous? I’m thinking along the lines of how terrain can create challenges for an attacker, in that a defilade might force one to commit his strength along a known path in mountainous terrain.

I realize also that when you account for orbital rotation, a planet does not affect a given jump vector all the time, but if you take Sol for example, with two gas giants (I am assuming Neptune and Uranus are not large enough to be considered true gas giants, but Arioch, please correct me if I am wrong) rotating at different distances and speeds, it seems that it would put attcking forces at a severe disadvantage in anticipating precisely when a planet is going to have an impact (how close to the inbound vector are each if the planets, are they at apogee, etc), and that unless the inbound vessel or fleet was willing to risk an incredibly dangerous jump, that the navigator would have to plot a shallow, distant jump in-system.

Furthermore, with such advantages and knowledge of in-system jump viable zones, a defender would seem to have a very straightforward “shooting fish in a barrel” task of pointing all their guns at the one or two spots an attacker could reasonably be expected to jump.

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Siber
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Re: 130: deep jumps vs. white dwarves

Post by Siber »

Finally: For gravity wells which are small and heavy to not follow this, generally, the gravitational constant must change as a function of something.
While the system's white dwarf may appear to have a 'narrow but deep' gravity well, it is actually just a regular gravity well for its mass, but with lots and lots of 'free space' to 'land' in.
I agree with all of this if we assume that the jump-governing shape of hyperspace is entirely the same as the real curvatures of gravity. If Arioch wants superdense objects to behave differently I have no problem assuming that there's related but different math in play, perhaps math that for some reason does care about what's going inside that radius circle somehow, though I can't produce the math myself.
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