[Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Completed: 06/04/2018)

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Hālian
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by Hālian »

Not to naysay but I hope an explanation is eventually offered for Alex' being an apparent Marty Stu...
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dragoongfa
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

He is as much of a 'Marty Stu' as every other human by that point:

Theoretically immortal (aging is a thing of the past), telepathic, telekinetic, eidetic and with an average IQ of 150 (genetic upgrades which make the current average seem retarded in comparison).

He looks and sounds like a 'Marty Stu' because he is a Senator of the Terran Confederation which now is the unified body of the entirety of humanity.

The fun thing is that I aim for him looking like this at first, a visage that may shatter in chapter 4 if what I have in mind pans out properly.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by raistlin34 »

Why do I have the suspicion Alex is going to make his personal mission in this fic to drive Stillstorm to drink? :lol:

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by Suederwind »

Hm... I am sorry, but that is just too much over the top for me. Nevertheless, its well written.
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by joestej »

Not a huge fan of "Humanity, F- Yeah!" stories myself, but I figured I'd give it a skim...until I bumped into the part where Humanity is at Tech Level 16.

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More seriously, I shall now offer some criticism that I hope will be constructive. Feel free to ignore it at your leisure, of course.

As a fellow writer I can understand the temptation of throwing a new version of Humanity into the Outsider universe, especially one strong enough to enforce its neutrality. I've made outlines for two stories almost exactly like that. Unfortunately, you could have achieved this just by making them Tech Level 12.

Because you put Humanity at TL 16, you've really go nowhere to go with this story from a narrative standpoint, because there are no real challenges for them to overcome. They can solo Umiak fleets, you've already given them the moral high ground by having the Loroi act like jerks, and even in a physical battle they're pretty much guaranteed to win. There's no suspense, and any personal virtues this version of Alex might have aren't going to show through because he'll never actually have to work for his victories.

The idea of Humanity as the true identity of the Soia is an interesting one, but that doesn't stop the story from being a glorified shooting gallery so long as they have their insane technological advantage. The story itself has no major flaws besides this, which is what makes the TL problem so obvious, sadly.
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dragoongfa
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

So, you think that the Humans are some short of good-willing heroes?

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Yes, keep believing that...

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by joestej »

dragoongfa wrote:So, you think that the Humans are some short of good-willing heroes?

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Yes, keep believing that...
Well it would certainly be more interesting if the Humans were the villains, since now you have a nifty underdog story with the Loroi/Umiak as the protagonists, but the tech balance is so lopsided even that wouldn't really help. Since they can create fleets of AI warships, dyson spheres, and black hole generators, it wouldn't matter if every Outsider race in existence banded together to stop Humanity: they'd still all lose.

And if the Soia/Humans are going to be the antagonists, why have them be Human at all? Keep the Outsider universe the same and just have the Soia return as a new alien race. The effect would be the same for your narrative, and you'd run into less problems with people dismissing your story as just a pro-human power trip.
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

Its going to be a short story but I am not going to hint the plot any further than this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... AreCthulhu

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by joestej »

dragoongfa wrote:Its going to be a short story but I am not going to hint the plot any further than this:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... AreCthulhu
I did notice the link, but that brings me back to my other point: why make the Humans be Cthulhu? The canon Soia are perfectly capable of being Cthulhu all on their own.

But if you really liked the idea of Cthulhu Humans in the Outsider-verse, it might work best to not even say that these are Humans. Robotic uploads, radical mutations, and other transhuman technologies are obviously within their reach, so there's no need to reveal that the new race is Humanity until pretty much the last line of your story. That makes it a dramatic twist and keeps up the suspense, while keeping the story itself relatively unchanged.

Alternatively, go for broke! You can make Cthulhu!Humanity work in this story if you embrace the full potential of the tech gap. Don't have the Human ship be taken out by the Umiak, have it be a pan-dimensional runner that was knocked into this plane of reality by a weapon that strikes its targets in the past, present, and future simultaneously. Don't make it a diplomatic ship, make it a scout vessel for a war so advanced the Loroi can't even detect that is being fought. Humanity's total disinterest in the Loroi and their primitive war problems keeps the tech levels from being an issue, and Alex becomes a unique puzzle the Loroi characters must overcome, instead of an overpowered protagonist that will make the other characters irrelevant.

"I have just picked [an ant] up on the tip of my glove. If I put it down again, and it asks another ant, "what was that?", how would it explain? There are things in the universe billions of years older than either of our races. They're vast, timeless, and if they're aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants, and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us. We know, we've tried, and we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot or be stepped on."
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

Because what you are presuming is not the point of the story ;)

A construct like what the Historians use would not be able to fulfill the duties that Senator Alexander Jardin chose for himself fulfill; for a variety of personal reasons.

EDIT: The Loroi interest Humanity a LOT, their primitive war with the Hierarchy is mere background noise to their greater plans.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by joestej »

dragoongfa wrote:Because what you are presuming is not the point of the story ;)

A construct like what the Historians use would not be to fulfill the duties that Senator Alexander Jardin chose to himself fulfill; for a variety of personal reasons.
I'm not sure if I'm not following you or you aren't following me. Maybe both?

Let's try again:

If we didn't know Alex was Human then his character would be a fun puzzle with a dramatic twist. If you made this Humanity so advanced that the Loroi can't even comprehend them, you've got a episode of Star Trek, Babylon 5, or Stargate (all three shows had the 'ultra-advanced guest' problem pop up more than once). But Humanity as you have written it feels more like a power fantasy than an interesting species.

No Cthulhu story is actually about Cthulhu, it's about the pathetic ants around it. Thus, your story should actually be about the Loroi. We don't need to know anything about these Humans, beyond the fact that they are insanely powerful. Knowing that they are a Confederation and that he is a Senator ruins their mystic. Having them actually send a mission to contact the Loroi is even worse, because it makes zero sense. The Loroi have absolutely nothing Humanity wants, so it would be like the UN sending an official delegation to an anonymous jungle tribe.

This story should be a cool culture clash as the Loroi struggle to understand just how big their universe really is. Thus far, this doesn't feel like that sort of story, because Humanity doesn't feel big. They feel like your standard sci-fi Humanity with some neat gadgets.

One way or the other, the Humans are what's holding this back. Fix them, you've fixed your story.
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

I understand the point and you partially got what I am going for. Yes the story is about the Loroi and yes one aspect of what I am going for is to humble the Loroi by introducing a monster. I don't believe however that the monster has to be hidden behind a veil for tension, tension can be added by pointing out the complete helplessness of the Loroi hosts when they come face to face with someone far greater than them that constantly shows how far ahead he is with a smile on his face.

In part Alex Jardin plays the horror of the universe at large finally coming to pay a visit, he is open and plain to see for everyone while he subtly hides some small details for his own reasons.

Senator Alex Jardin ain't the protagonist, nor does he serve the purpose of the antagonist; he represents an unstoppable force of the universe at large that is amused by the petty fighting when he knows that something far bigger is at stake and he suspects that universe shaking events are already in motion. I intend to portray humanity as an 'evil' we the readers believe we know about, through events we believe we know how they pan out, only to have the truth of everything come out in the end. The reader believes that they know what is coming (all readers know what Cthulhu is), the Loroi and the Hierarchy don't, to their detriment, but the reader keeps reading even if he knows because they want to see the upstart apes get smacked around by forces that are beyond compare.

That's what I am trying to go here for.

If I have one failing is that I posted the human background now, when it should be posted after the end of the story; that or I should have spoiled it at the very least. I haven't spoiled the key elements of Human intentions but I did betray Humanity's size and what they have already done.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by joestej »

dragoongfa wrote:I understand the point and you partially got what I am going for. Yes the story is about the Loroi and yes one aspect of what I am going for is to humble the Loroi by introducing a monster. I don't believe however that the monster has to be hidden behind a veil for tension, tension can be added by pointing out the complete helplessness of the Loroi hosts when they come face to face with someone far greater than them that constantly shows how far ahead he is with a smile on his face.

In part Alex Jardin plays the horror of the universe at large finally coming to pay a visit, he is open and plain to see for everyone while he subtly hides some small details for his own reasons.

Senator Alex Jardin ain't the protagonist, nor does he serve the purpose of the antagonist; he represents an unstoppable force of the universe at large that is amused by the petty fighting when he knows that something far bigger is at stake and he suspects that universe shaking events are already in motion. I intend to portray humanity as an 'evil' we the readers believe we know about, through events we believe we know how they pan out, only to have the truth of everything come out in the end. The reader believes that they know what is coming (all readers know what Cthulhu is), the Loroi and the Hierarchy don't, to their detriment, but the reader keeps reading even if he knows because they want to see the upstart apes get smacked around by forces that are beyond compare.

That's what I am trying to go here for.

If I have one failing is that I posted the human background now, when it should be posted after the end of the story; that or I should have spoiled it at the very least. I haven't spoiled the key elements of Human intentions but I did betray Humanity's size and what they have already done.
True, but that's the trick: Alex doesn't seem scary. He seems arrogant. True, his confidence is quite justified, but by humanizing him you've taken away the fear. Were he an alien (or if we didn't know he was human) it wouldn't be so bad, but because your readers are also human (probably) they will automatically put themselves in Alex's shoes. Cosmic horror is only scary if you are the ant, or if you can sympathize with the ant. When the ant's a jerk who is obviously about to get what's coming to them from the all-powerful superior being, it's boring. When that superior being is a stand-in for the reader? That's a power fantasy.

Were this an original fiction, I think it might still work. But this is an Outsider story, posted in the Outsider forum. If we hated the Loroi and Umiak so much that we wanted the mighty tentacles of Cthulhu to wipe them from the galaxy, we wouldn't be here. We LIKE the Loroi, aggression and all. Who wants to see them get their asses kicked by an opponent who so obviously has the deck stacked in their favor? Humble them with superior strategy. Humble them with tactful diplomacy. Just don't do it via a magic "I win" button.
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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

As the writer I share the same 'fears' in regards to the story; yes the Human cosmic horror, read by a human can be seen as a power fantasy but that's part of the trick I want to play with him and humanity as a whole. He seems arrogant with the Loroi, that's my intention. He will seem ordinary and perhaps pleasant in seemingly casual discussion, that's also my intention. He is human and has a lot of pull but is he someone the reader can actually relate to? I hope so because that's my intention. Now is he someone that the reader SHOULD relate to?

That's for later.

Are the Loroi like able? Of course, I wouldn't paint them in such positive light if I didn't believe they are like able.

However, is this the whole picture about them?

That's also for later.

Will what I have in mind actually work?

I want to believe that it will but I am not sure myself.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by raistlin34 »

If I understand it correctly, Humanity at its whole is like the Continuum of this universe, with Alexander playing Q in the Loroi ship?

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

The Q continuum is naturally omnipotent and omnipresent; this Humanity still has to do a lot of legwork for both of these traits.

And this Alex isn't Q in the Enterprise calling shenanigans.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by peragrin »

Wow that is a whole lot of speculation on the authors intent after just a couple pages.

Jeez people have a little patience. This is the outsider forums. We are used to just a couple of updates per year. Stop trying to guess dragoongfa intent after a couple of paragraphs

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by Absalom »

joestej wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:So, you think that the Humans are some short of good-willing heroes?

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Yes, keep believing that...
Well it would certainly be more interesting if the Humans were the villains, since now you have a nifty underdog story with the Loroi/Umiak as the protagonists, but the tech balance is so lopsided even that wouldn't really help. Since they can create fleets of AI warships,
Hmm. If they have telepathic user-interfaces, then that can easily (and almost instantly) lead to post-human intelligence, just by being close enough to the right computer.
joestej wrote:"I have just picked [an ant] up on the tip of my glove. If I put it down again, and it asks another ant, "what was that?", how would it explain? There are things in the universe billions of years older than either of our races. They're vast, timeless, and if they're aware of us at all, it is as little more than ants, and we have as much chance of communicating with them as an ant has with us. We know, we've tried, and we've learned that we can either stay out from underfoot or be stepped on."
Works a lot better if the ant doesn't get approached by the giant. Humans are Vorlons or Shadows by this analogy, though both worked better as secretive "also Humans" than as Cthulhu.
joestej wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:Because what you are presuming is not the point of the story ;)

A construct like what the Historians use would not be to fulfill the duties that Senator Alexander Jardin chose to himself fulfill; for a variety of personal reasons.
I'm not sure if I'm not following you or you aren't following me. Maybe both?

Let's try again:

If we didn't know Alex was Human then his character would be a fun puzzle with a dramatic twist. If you made this Humanity so advanced that the Loroi can't even comprehend them, you've got a episode of Star Trek, Babylon 5, or Stargate (all three shows had the 'ultra-advanced guest' problem pop up more than once). But Humanity as you have written it feels more like a power fantasy than an interesting species.
Well, to be honest, the stereotypical "visiting aliens" thing feels like a power fantasy too, just for the aliens instead of humanity.

But admittedly, the writing is a little bit uninspiring at the moment. Perhaps it would have benefited from writing as if Jardin's presence changed the nature of reality or something, basically turning the universe in a localized area from the corporeal universe that we all know and love, into something out of an acid trip, or thr contents of an exhaustive but mostly metaphorical philosophy textbook as rendered by a 9-dimensional Picasso.

That sounds difficult, though. And at any rate, perhaps Jardin choose to manifest this way?
joestej wrote:No Cthulhu story is actually about Cthulhu, it's about the pathetic ants around it. Thus, your story should actually be about the Loroi. We don't need to know anything about these Humans, beyond the fact that they are insanely powerful. Knowing that they are a Confederation and that he is a Senator ruins their mystic. Having them actually send a mission to contact the Loroi is even worse, because it makes zero sense. The Loroi have absolutely nothing Humanity wants, so it would be like the UN sending an official delegation to an anonymous jungle tribe.
Humans have sent out plenty of missions to study nematodes. These just happen to be more intelligent than normal.
joestej wrote:One way or the other, the Humans are what's holding this back. Fix them, you've fixed your story.
Eh, dialogue and portrayal improvements would do the trick. The appearance of having rushed through the awkward parts is what's struck me as needing to be fixed so far.

My thoughts on the writing:
1) Too much "telling", not enough "showing";
2) Rushing too much in to make it work well (plays in with 1 ).
dragoongfa wrote:I understand the point and you partially got what I am going for. Yes the story is about the Loroi and yes one aspect of what I am going for is to humble the Loroi by introducing a monster. I don't believe however that the monster has to be hidden behind a veil for tension, tension can be added by pointing out the complete helplessness of the Loroi hosts when they come face to face with someone far greater than them that constantly shows how far ahead he is with a smile on his face.
That can probably be done, but it requires more subtlty than you're applying. It's coming off as Marty-Stu-ish instead... or to put it another way, it's coming off as preachy. That sort of thing got done in old sci-fi movies a lot, but not because it's a good writing technique: those were pulp sci-fis, with the appropriate level of writing.

Revealing that the monster is a monster early on is fine, but you're doing it like a slasher-flick, not like a suspense. If you want both tension, and for the tension to be well received, then you need to at least back off from the "stated fact" thing.

Also, Jardin has seemed too detached from his canon counterpart: Arioch's Jardin probably would have kept more of those cards hidden, or at least played them a little better.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by dragoongfa »

Absalom wrote:
My thoughts on the writing:
1) Too much "telling", not enough "showing";
2) Rushing too much in to make it work well (plays in with 1 ).
I agree for the 'telling' and the partial 'rushing' but that's going to flip flop from here on out; the human ambassador will not always be present.

Also, Jardin has seemed too detached from his canon counterpart: Arioch's Jardin probably would have kept more of those cards hidden, or at least played them a little better.
This is intended.

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Re: [Fan Fiction] The pale horse (Updated: 03/02/2016)

Post by joestej »

Fair enough. I agree that perhaps I'm reading ahead a bit, and the idea of what a TL 16 civilization might look like is certainly quite subjective. There is no reason dragoongfa should have to subscribe to my definition of how an ultra-advanced Human/Cthulhu fusion would act. I don't really have all the information either, so maybe I'm missing something that will explain away my concerns. I shall await further developments before rendering a final verdict.
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