Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

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Mr.Tucker
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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

I believe that it was stated sometime earlier on some thread that the Loroi do most of the fighting, while the Neridi and Barsam do most of the logistical work. So they would not really need us for that purpose.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by JQBogus »

The truth about where this is all going, about what humanity can do for the Loroi has already been hinted at on page 43.

In a strange reversal of a traditional human fairy tale, it will actually be humans who make shoes for elves...

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by GeoModder »

Arioch wrote:If fusion drives made for more efficient merchant vessels, then wouldn't the Loroi already be using them?
To use an analogue, why not using a nuclear plant on all merchant vessels here on Earth? I mean, the nuclear submarines -and surface vessels on our world are unrivaled in endurance.
To me, its more likely the use of the fuel that has the most extensive infrastructure for 'manufacture' and distribution. Going back to for instance fusion would essentially force the Loroi Union to maintain two competing fuel sources for their starship drives.
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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

The Law of Comparative Advantage shows how it can be beneficial to have someone who is at an absolute disadvantage do some of the work, as long as the party with an absolute advantage has a difference in efficiency within their own production. Even if the Loroi already have sufficient logistics to wage war as they are currently doing, it could still be beneficial to have more low level support.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Razor One »

RedDwarfIV wrote:They're also holding off colonising the Wastelands because they don't need to... yet. At some point they'll be forced into it, and if they're forced into it, they're not ready.
Source on this? I don't recall coming across this while reading Insider, though it'd be easy to miss given all the material there. I had it down as them not really colonising that region because it was a barren wasteland with nothing of worth or value; Antarctica in space essentially, sans any treaties against mineralogical exploitation or scientific benefit. Sure, you could live there if you wanted, and sure, there's resources there to exploit if you really wanted them, but the undertaking would be a huge one, it'd be as expensive as all get out, and at the end of the day, not a whole many people would want to live in a frozen wasteland where you don't see the sun for six months at a time.
icekatze wrote:hi hi

The Law of Comparative Advantage shows how it can be beneficial to have someone who is at an absolute disadvantage do some of the work, as long as the party with an absolute advantage has a difference in efficiency within their own production. Even if the Loroi already have sufficient logistics to wage war as they are currently doing, it could still be beneficial to have more low level support.
Tyranny of distance kind of nixes that though. Establishing a reliable supply chain over a 200 LY distance would be a logistical nightmare, securing it would be impossible, and anything we deliver would have to be raw resources (our hardware is bunk and our only labour of worth is unskilled) which they can get easier and cheaper at home unless we just give it gratis or on a lend/lease basis and they pay the Terrans back after the war, in which case it's only a minor supplement to their massive economy.

Terrans unskilled labour is probably more valuable than any amount of raw resources they could ship in over that incredibly long distance. Setting up a Terran enclave in Loroi territory and then taking up various unskilled jobs would free up Loroi to do other and more valuable tasks, provided they'd allow it. Every Terran mopping floors and hand-delivering shoes to the unshod is another Loroi doing more skilled labour or undertaking the training necessary to do so. This assumes of course that they're tight for labour, if they have high unemployment in the middle of a war... I'd eat my hat.
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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Food is one thing that Terrans could provide without much advanced technology. The Soia-Liron crops are hearty and adaptable. And since a lot of the Loroi's tech is more advanced than the Terran's they could pawn of some last generation junk in exchange. Let the terrans worry about the distance problem, as long as they're not spending more than the normally would on the produce. True, the terran's limited production capacity would mean that it wouldn't be a major advantage, but sometimes lots of little things can compound into a noticeable difference.

(If in the process of growing a compatible ecosystem, the Terrans eventually make some planets in the wasteland more appealing for colonization, that would be nice too, but it would probably not be feasible on a short term timescale.)

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Razor One wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
icekatze wrote:hi hi

The Law of Comparative Advantage shows how it can be beneficial to have someone who is at an absolute disadvantage do some of the work, as long as the party with an absolute advantage has a difference in efficiency within their own production. Even if the Loroi already have sufficient logistics to wage war as they are currently doing, it could still be beneficial to have more low level support.
Tyranny of distance kind of nixes that though. Establishing a reliable supply chain over a 200 LY distance would be a logistical nightmare, securing it would be impossible, and anything we deliver would have to be raw resources (our hardware is bunk and our only labour of worth is unskilled) which they can get easier and cheaper at home unless we just give it gratis or on a lend/lease basis and they pay the Terrans back after the war, in which case it's only a minor supplement to their massive economy.

Terrans unskilled labour is probably more valuable than any amount of raw resources they could ship in over that incredibly long distance. Setting up a Terran enclave in Loroi territory and then taking up various unskilled jobs would free up Loroi to do other and more valuable tasks, provided they'd allow it. Every Terran mopping floors and hand-delivering shoes to the unshod is another Loroi doing more skilled labour or undertaking the training necessary to do so. This assumes of course that they're tight for labour, if they have high unemployment in the middle of a war... I'd eat my hat.
As a logistical base, the TCA is usefull. As a major supplier of trade ships, the Barsam and Neridi (who, I might add are subjected to a very similar disadvantage as humans, only for different reasons: religious for Barsam, racial for Neridi) do it better. Better economies, better tech. Basically we'd be the village outside the military base: a place where you can get a drink, repair your shoes, buy some gas, but not somewhere where you'd manufacture your trucks or tanks.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by RedDwarfIV »

Razor One wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:They're also holding off colonising the Wastelands because they don't need to... yet. At some point they'll be forced into it, and if they're forced into it, they're not ready.
Source on this?
Arioch wrote:The "Great Wasteland" is a region of lower-than-normal star density, with few habitable planets and no known native intelligent species or precursor ruins. It's so-called because nobody lives there. The Loroi haven't expanded in that direction because they haven't found any suitable colonization targets within a comfortable range. The larger distances between stars means you have to make longer jumps through the region; this speeds up travel, but introduces additional risk if you don't have a well-planned, well-surveyed route.
So the Loroi haven't been expanding much. But the Umiak almost certainly are. the Great Wastelands is pretty much the only direction the Loroi can expand into.
Razor One wrote:I don't recall coming across this while reading Insider, though it'd be easy to miss given all the material there. I had it down as them not really colonising that region because it was a barren wasteland with nothing of worth or value; Antarctica in space essentially, sans any treaties against mineralogical exploitation or scientific benefit. Sure, you could live there if you wanted, and sure, there's resources there to exploit if you really wanted them, but the undertaking would be a huge one, it'd be as expensive as all get out, and at the end of the day, not a whole many people would want to live in a frozen wasteland where you don't see the sun for six months at a time.
It's not that there's nothing of value. It's that the things that are valuable are distant from each other, and longer jumps are more dangerous without survey maps. Clearly the TCA isn't starved for colonies.

At some point the Loroi will have to expand into the Great Wastelands to keep up with the Umiak. That process would go much more smoothly, or may even be able to start much earlier, if Humanity (which is experienced in long-jumps and having to search more to find suitable colony systems) could provide them with surveys of the area. Then the Loroi would know exactly where to go to colonise without having to look around a lot themselves with crews who have little experience long-jumping.
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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

The Loroi have been expanding, just not in the direction of the Wastelands. The Loroi and Barsam have been jointly founding new colonies coreward and anti-spinward (southeast on the map) of Justa and Kabel.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

RedDwarfIV wrote:
Razor One wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:.

At some point the Loroi will have to expand into the Great Wastelands to keep up with the Umiak. That process would go much more smoothly, or may even be able to start much earlier, if Humanity (which is experienced in long-jumps and having to search more to find suitable colony systems) could provide them with surveys of the area. Then the Loroi would know exactly where to go to colonise without having to look around a lot themselves with crews who have little experience long-jumping.
Not really sure about that. The TCA colonies appear somewhat more rugged than the ordinary Union worlds which seem to be preterraformed (by the Dreiman? Soia? I MUST KNOW MORE....). The Loroi don't seem to be having a massive overpopulation problem. And the TCA works with what it has, because before contact with the Orgus, it seemed reasonable to just expand in a pseudo-spherical fashion. That experience may prove valuable, but the risk of being surrounded by Loroi colonies and not being able to expand should put the TCA administration on guard.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Zakharra »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
RedDwarfIV wrote:
At some point the Loroi will have to expand into the Great Wastelands to keep up with the Umiak. That process would go much more smoothly, or may even be able to start much earlier, if Humanity (which is experienced in long-jumps and having to search more to find suitable colony systems) could provide them with surveys of the area. Then the Loroi would know exactly where to go to colonise without having to look around a lot themselves with crews who have little experience long-jumping.
Not really sure about that. The TCA colonies appear somewhat more rugged than the ordinary Union worlds which seem to be preterraformed (by the Dreiman? Soia? I MUST KNOW MORE....). The Loroi don't seem to be having a massive overpopulation problem. And the TCA works with what it has, because before contact with the Orgus, it seemed reasonable to just expand in a pseudo-spherical fashion. That experience may prove valuable, but the risk of being surrounded by Loroi colonies and not being able to expand should put the TCA administration on guard.
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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Oooh, Starship Troopers. Awfull movie but still a hallmark of my childhood :D .

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Cy83r »

Verhoven's first propaganda piece was significant in that it provides an in to better science fiction, even Heinlein's actual unmolested work, for the general consumer. Roughneck Chronicles, a nice mix between Verhoven's "adaptation" and the Heinlein classic, is the definitive military drama of my childhood before things like Gundam (namely, the Romeo & Juliet reboot, 08th MS Team, and Beowulf's 0080: War in the Pocket) hit American shores. The large troop movements of Star Wars are great and piqued my love of wargames, but the nitty gritty of the combat unit holds more appeal off of the tabletop.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

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Cy83r wrote:Verhoven's first propaganda piece was significant in that it provides an in to better science fiction, even Heinlein's actual unmolested work, for the general consumer. Roughneck Chronicles, a nice mix between Verhoven's "adaptation" and the Heinlein classic, is the definitive military drama of my childhood before things like Gundam (namely, the Romeo & Juliet reboot, 08th MS Team, and Beowulf's 0080: War in the Pocket) hit American shores. The large troop movements of Star Wars are great and piqued my love of wargames, but the nitty gritty of the combat unit holds more appeal off of the tabletop.
i'm still mad about roughnecks remaining unfinished.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Roeben »

You saw Verhoeven's adaptation and got propaganda out of it?

Please elaborate.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Verhoeven's Starship Troopers was delicious, delicious social satire. And oh so quotable. :)

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Roeben »

Especially when you consider that it retroactively predicted and satirized the war on terror.

I know it's cracked, but read about it in more detail here. It's actually a pretty cool article.

It's a common misunderstanding that Verhoeven's adaptation is fascist propaganda, but this is in fact not the case. Verhoeven himself claims it's a harsh, satirical criticism on Fascism, which isn't a strange thing considering the youth he had in WW2 Europe.

In fact, it's Heinlein's original novel that tries to intellectually sell the reader on a spartan, military society.

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

It was always my understanding that Verhoeven was satirizing Heinlein. The movie was horrible as an adaptation, but strangely compelling and campy in its own way. I only finished seeing it through to the end with my friends because the aliens were so cool. In another frame of mind I might have cut is some slack, but after having recently re-read the book at the time, I wasn't expecting such a nose-tweak to the book (and author) and got a little irritated at it!

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Mr.Tucker »

While I respect Verhoeven's choice, it is not representative of Heinlein's work. Basically it delights in missing the point: ''Starship Troopers'' is as much a philosophical work about society and citizen-state interaction as it is a novel about powered armor soldiers fighting giant bugs. The only merit the film has is raising interest in ''Starship Troopers'' among foreign audiences (especially here in Europe; at the time the novel came out, european audiences were still extremely opposed to any sort of military implications; today's a new generation, and given the general disgust EU authorities have against their own militaries, it's not necessarily a bad thing).

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Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

I thought that Starship Troopers was an enjoyable action movie, taken on its own merits. Naturally, any adaptation of the seminal "powered armor" novel that doesn't even mention powered armor has to be a bit disappointing, but I was aware of that going into the theater, and I was surprised that the social/political element from the novel was largely intact. Verhoeven deals with the subject of the soldier-citizen-state with a satirical eye, but I think that's to be expected from someone who was alive during the Nazi occupation of the Netherlands (and for whom satire is the perhaps the biggest arrow in his directorial quiver).

Heinlein is one of my favorite authors, and so I bristle a bit when it is suggested that he is advocating a Spartan society in the novel. A science fiction author ought to be able to propose a "what-if?" scenario in a story without being accused of advocating that scenario for real life. I've read nearly all of Heinlein's fiction, and I don't recall any of them besides Starship Troopers that present a similar veteran-run society. In most of them, I feel that he viewed government with libertarian suspicion, and often a with heavy helping of satire. Friday in particular comes to mind, in which the future America has Balkanized into a dozen independent countries, including the dictatorial Chicago Imperium and the democratic-to-ridiculous-extremes California Confederacy (the absurdity of which would feel right at home in one of Verhoeven's films).

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