Dreaming of the Garden Discussion Thread

[inxsi]

How did the Umiak even get in there, or did those minions contact them instead?

The Umiak learned how to enter it as part of the data they seized from the Historians - either during their invasion or possibly as part of a deal the Historians made with them to get the Umiak to leave their space. The Historians restricted themselves to only sending in personality constructs. The Umiak are not aware of the minions - they think that they have figured out enough of how this space works to use it for their plan safely.

Alex seems to be better at flirting than Beryl, although he is too calm about the Loroi invading his mind.

Well, I assume Alex has a lot more experience flirting than Beryl does. Agreed on him being too calm - I don't think I'm cut out for writing so much paranoia between the main characters. And I wasn't sure how to increase the tension on that without dragging it out more, which would have had to extend other parts... if I come up with another story, I'll try to keep it simpler.

An errorShow

I’ll admit I don’t [know of?] what use I can be though.

Thanks - fixed.

[Cthulhu]

The Umiak learned how to enter it as part of the data they seized from the Historians - either during their invasion or possibly as part of a deal the Historians made with them to get the Umiak to leave their space. The Historians restricted themselves to only sending in personality constructs. The Umiak are not aware of the minions - they think that they have figured out enough of how this space works to use it for their plan safely.

So they copied a property of this space in order to achieve the psi-cloak?

Well, I assume Alex has a lot more experience flirting than Beryl does. Agreed on him being too calm - I don't think I'm cut out for writing so much paranoia between the main characters. And I wasn't sure how to increase the tension on that without dragging it out more, which would have had to extend other parts... if I come up with another story, I'll try to keep it simpler.

Normally, his paranoia should exceed his "pucker-factor 9,5" by an order of magnitude. Since he can't know what Beryl learned from him, he has to assume that all information that he has is now compromised. Even remaining silent is no longer an option, and everything can and will be used against him.
Writing this paranoia is actually not that challenging, though, if you keep it simple. The trick is "underwhelming" and "guilt", basically, at first, have Beryl catch glimpses of Alex' rampant and ever-increasing paranoia that he tries to hide. Then, prompted by guilt, have them compare the dreams in greater detail, only for Alex to realize that most of it is distorted beyond being useful information. Finally, either or the Leviathan using their mind-link to invade our realm.

[inxsi]

So they copied a property of this space in order to achieve the psi-cloak?

My idea is that the Umiak figured out a way to have the minds of Umiak in the real-world be stored in this space, essentially remote operating the bodies back in the real-world. The Loroi farseers are not detecting the Umiak because this space is beyond the reach of their senses. The Umiak crews do perform slightly worse in the real-world than they normally would, and there are some losses where the "tether" breaks (some of which are naturally occurring and others due to the minions deciding to snack and disguising it as "expected losses").

Normally, his paranoia should exceed his "pucker-factor 9,5" by an order of magnitude. Since he can't know what Beryl learned from him, he has to assume that all information that he has is now compromised. Even remaining silent is no longer an option, and everything can and will be used against him.
Writing this paranoia is actually not that challenging, though, if you keep it simple. The trick is "underwhelming" and "guilt", basically, at first, have Beryl catch glimpses of Alex' rampant and ever-increasing paranoia that he tries to hide. Then, prompted by guilt, have them compare the dreams in greater detail, only for Alex to realize that most of it is distorted beyond being useful information. Finally, either or the Leviathan using their mind-link to invade our realm.

I think portraying Alex's paranoia that way can be fit in - I'll give it a shot. Thank you for the advice. I do wonder if he would be more worried than in the webcomic - he has not seen any of Tempo's abilities yet. I wonder if those would be considered worse than Beryl sharing his past through a dream - on the other hand, I don't think Alex will be able to convince himself that there was a reference to the Adrift Astronaut that Beryl's subconscious just put together from learning English despite his best efforts

As for the eventual ending, we will have to see what happens.

[Snoofman]

So Alex and the loroi, or at least Beryl, seem to be on good terms again. I'm even more curious about the leviathan. I can almost guess what it could be, but won't say too much to avoid potential spoilers.

[inxsi]

So Alex and the loroi, or at least Beryl, seem to be on good terms again. I'm even more curious about the leviathan. I can almost guess what it could be, but won't say too much to avoid potential spoilers.

Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much more will be revealed in the story about the leviathan, but I'm glad you are curious. Maybe I'll see about working a bit more into the story on it. Thank you for the feedback

[Snoofman]

Hamilton, a man with a heart of gold.

[inxsi]

Hamilton, a man with a heart of gold.

I figured he would (at least subconsciously) help Lynne/Beryl, even if it is just him feeling responsible for her since she is his aide, and he seemed like he cared about the development of the cadets in the flashbacks in the webcomic. And it helps move the plot forward

[Snoofman]

I’m a little confused after the latest update. Does Beryl know Alex is in danger or is she simply fretting?

Anyway, now I can see how Alex’s dreams tie in and are affected by his real life situation.

[inxsi]

I’m a little confused after the latest update. Does Beryl know Alex is in danger or is she simply fretting?

Anyway, now I can see how Alex’s dreams tie in and are affected by his real life situation.

Yeah, looking at it again I don't think I made that very clear. Sorry about that.

She thinks Alex is in danger, but is trying to convince herself that she is wrong. After all, if the dream gave her a concussion, what would happen if Alex died in it? And the victims in the dream had somewhat similar calls with the Apology Line, though they all were convinced something was coming for them while Alex is not. So she is trying to convince herself that she is being irrational, but I don't think she is succeeding.

[Cthulhu]

Poor Beryl is so stressed out that she does not seem to realize that the dreamworld diverges from reality, since there's no way that a cadet will be found floating in space just like that. Yet it this insertion of her dream-persona that contributes to the derailment of Alex' life.

Also, it seems that you have incorporated some of my critique regarding those leaks. Those hosts still seem to be too naive, though. To label the acts of insurgence as terrorism requires taking sides, since it is nigh impossible to be objective in this matter.

[inxsi]

Poor Beryl is so stressed out that she does not seem to realize that the dreamworld diverges from reality, since there's no way that a cadet will be found floating in space just like that. Yet it this insertion of her dream-persona that contributes to the derailment of Alex' life.

Also, it seems that you have incorporated some of my critique regarding those leaks. Those hosts still seem to be too naive, though. To label the acts of insurgence as terrorism requires taking sides, since it is nigh impossible to be objective in this matter.

Thanks for the feedback!

I think she is aware of the divergence, though she is not sure how wide it is or if the dream reflects or impacts Alex in the waking world. I'm not sure if I conveyed it very well in the story though.

I probably should have had the announcers be a bit more professional there, even though they are pro-Loroi. I think I lost track that the information on that incident would be suspect since the Loroi are so insular.

[Cthulhu]

I think she is aware of the divergence, though she is not sure how wide it is or if the dream reflects or impacts Alex in the waking world. I'm not sure if I conveyed it very well in the story though.

It's explained well enough, she is just underestimating the significance of her interference in the dream.

I probably should have had the announcers be a bit more professional there, even though they are pro-Loroi. I think I lost track that the information on that incident would be suspect since the Loroi are so insular.

We Humans have a very long history of wars that were always accompanied by propaganda. So, unless the announcers are following an agenda or are actually believing their own propaganda, they should treat any kind of information from and about both sides with utmost caution.
Pardon my professional (and quite pessimistic) outlook, but releasing uncommented information of this caliber upon the unsuspecting and frankly, quite ignorant population, is a sure way to create great disaster. Therefore, in most cases such leaks are staged, either to prepare grounds, or to gauge reactions.

SpoilerShow

For example, the most recent "confession" of that Facebook employee. This is nothing but a political tool of dubious quality.

[inxsi]

It's explained well enough, she is just underestimating the significance of her interference in the dream.

Almost certainly. She does not feel she can gauge how things would have gone, short of quizzing Alex about his life when he is awake which would be awkward for her given her feelings about the dreams.

We Humans have a very long history of wars that were always accompanied by propaganda. So, unless the announcers are following an agenda or are actually believing their own propaganda, they should treat any kind of information from and about both sides with utmost caution.
Pardon my professional (and quite pessimistic) outlook, but releasing uncommented information of this caliber upon the unsuspecting and frankly, quite ignorant population, is a sure way to create great disaster. Therefore, in most cases such leaks are staged, either to prepare grounds, or to gauge reactions.

Well, they want the Loroi to be better than they can probably be. And they have a dangerous commitment to democracy so they are happy to have all of the information released on the issue - which was mostly their goal in the former broadcast - if Humanity cannot deal with making a decision they are fine with that outcome.

[Cthulhu]

Well, they want the Loroi to be better than they can probably be. And they have a dangerous commitment to democracy so they are happy to have all of the information released on the issue - which was mostly their goal in the former broadcast - if Humanity cannot deal with making a decision they are fine with that outcome.

The way to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. In this scenario, however, it may be quite literal, since even a single Umiak or Loroi division can send all of Humanity down there. Also, do they have detailed information about Seren, or was that conveniently omitted?

A commitment to democracy is not dangerous, but being blinded by their own self-righteousness certainly is.

[inxsi]

The way to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say. In this scenario, however, it may be quite literal, since even a single Umiak or Loroi division can send all of Humanity down there. Also, do they have detailed information about Seren, or was that conveniently omitted?

A commitment to democracy is not dangerous, but being blinded by their own self-righteousness certainly is.

Detailed information on Seren was not included - I don't think it made its way to the Orgus due to the Loroi (who I imagine were clamping down on information to the outside world by then) and the Umiak not wanting to provide too much information (since it would either be killing the civilians out of hand or admitting any possibility of resisting the Umiak).

[Cthulhu]

I'm a bit confused about who is saying what in the first part of the new chapter. Is Alex worried about the 51st, is that Beryl's line, or are there more conversational partners?

Also, that tracking device is a great idea to have Alex show himself to the other Loroi.

[inxsi]

I'm a bit confused about who is saying what in the first part of the new chapter. Is Alex worried about the 51st, is that Beryl's line, or are there more conversational partners?

Also, that tracking device is a great idea to have Alex show himself to the other Loroi.

The "Maybe it is just worry about Strike Group 51" line is Alex's line.

Maybe I have Alex being shown to the other Loroi... I had kind of gotten used to just dealing with the characters I had. Sunfury should trust him by now.

[Cthulhu]

As Dream leads them to the farseer, Beryl sense Alex’s apprehension. “I am sure you will do fine,” she says, squeezing his hand slightly.

Perhaps senses? Also, walking around the station, holding hands with a male, how lewd!

The "Maybe it is just worry about Strike Group 51" line is Alex's line.

Then the next sentence is also coming from Alex?

“I don’t know. Maybe it is just worry about Strike Group 51. I never thought I would be hearing about other groups going into combat, I always thought I would be involved in the fighting.”

Frankly, this entire line doesn't make any sense to me, because it sounds like something Beryl should be saying. The part about worrying of the 51st's fate is weird, since everyone he came to know is now with him. What is so strange about other groups going into combat, and why or how should he be involved in the fighting?
The real cause of Alex' worry should be whether the Loroi can even win at this point.

[inxsi]

Perhaps senses? Also, walking around the station, holding hands with a male, how lewd!

Yeah, that should be senses.

My original idea was that they were holding hands so they could sanzai each other without disturbing Starcry, then I decided that did not make sense (that there would be too much worry of disturbing her anyone given how close they were). I missed removing them holding hands when removing all of the italics tags. Not sure if I'll update it to remove them holding hands or not. I probably should remove it, since squeezing hands for reassurance is probably not a loroi behavior.

Then the next sentence is also coming from Alex?

No, the next sentence is Beryl - it should go:

SpoilerShow

“You won’t let me down. You have learned how to generate a lotai. Starcry is really the one being tested to see if she can figure out some way to detect you despite the lotai. What is really bothering you?” [Beryl asks.]

“I don’t know. Maybe it is just worry about Strike Group 51. I never thought I would be hearing about other groups going into combat, I always thought I would be involved in the fighting.” [Alex says.]

“I understand, since I feel the same way. This is the first time I have been away from the Tempest while they were going into action. I mean, since I’ve been assigned there.” [Beryl says.]

“Right. I also think I am worried about what humans having an ability to generate a lotai that the loroi cannot pierce would mean. It pains me to admit it, but there is some anti-loroi sentiment in the TCA. Not much, since almost everyone has been made to understand how outclassed humanity is, but some. I don’t think anyone would try anything if they knew about the lotai today, but in the future, when humanity has better technology? I could see some humans using it to cause a big problem. I’m hoping Starcry figures out a way to pierce the lotai, since I would not want to see humanity make such a choice.” [Alex says.]

Frankly, this entire line doesn't make any sense to me, because it sounds like something Beryl should be saying. The part about worrying of the 51st's fate is weird, since everyone he came to know is now with him. What is so strange about other groups going into combat, and why or how should he be involved in the fighting?

The real cause of Alex' worry should be whether the Loroi can even win at this point.

Yeah, I agree - he did see other loroi on board the Tempest but did not get to know any of them. My thinking was he is deflecting his real concern (whether the Loroi win) onto the survival of the 51st (since they are an elite group and possibly due to Beryl's worry about them), but I probably should have gone the other way. I think his concern is that, as he understands the situation, the Loroi should be able to win the battle, which makes him think that the Umiak have something more planned.

As for his feelings about watching other groups going into combat, I do not think Alex is used to waiting to hear about how battles went - he is used to having some sense of involvement in the outcome, not just passively waiting for the results. But I might be having him bond too soon with the Loroi. Maybe the charitable interpretation is that he is trying to find a reason for his unease with the upcoming battle without worrying Beryl about the fate of the Loroi? Though he probably should not be holding her hand as she would realize that.

[Cthulhu]

My original idea was that they were holding hands so they could sanzai each other without disturbing Starcry, then I decided that did not make sense (that there would be too much worry of disturbing her anyone given how close they were). I missed removing them holding hands when removing all of the italics tags. Not sure if I'll update it to remove them holding hands or not. I probably should remove it, since squeezing hands for reassurance is probably not a loroi behavior.

Touching is a very private matter for the Loroi since it enhances the bandwidth of the mental link by an order of magnitude. I guess it might be normal for friends or family to touch each other, but Alex is a male and Loroi do not have much contact between the sexes outside mating encounters. Or does Beryl want to explore that strange pair bonding practice?

Yeah, I agree - he did see other loroi on board the Tempest but did not get to know any of them. My thinking was he is deflecting his real concern (whether the Loroi win) onto the survival of the 51st (since they are an elite group and possibly due to Beryl's worry about them), but I probably should have gone the other way. I think his concern is that, as he understands the situation, the Loroi should be able to win the battle, which makes him think that the Umiak have something more planned.

As for his feelings about watching other groups going into combat, I do not think Alex is used to waiting to hear about how battles went - he is used to having some sense of involvement in the outcome, not just passively waiting for the results. But I might be having him bond too soon with the Loroi. Maybe the charitable interpretation is that he is trying to find a reason for his unease with the upcoming battle without worrying Beryl about the fate of the Loroi? Though he probably should not be holding her hand as she would realize that.

If he wants to be sympathetic towards Beryl, it needs to be worded differently, too. This sounds like he considered himself to be part of Tempest's crew, but he was effectively a prisoner the entire time. Honestly, in a similar situation, I wouldn't shed a single tear if the ship were to be destroyed. It's war, after all, and losses are to be expected.
Alex is also unaccustomed to fighting or interstellar warfare in general, since all the space battles he "participated" in were simulations.

The new chapter is very interesting. I doubt that the Umiak are foolish enough to risk a 5% chance, therefore it's highly likely that they can twist the odds in their favor.