Dreaming of the Garden Discussion Thread

[Dan Wyatt]

So the new guy is one of Alex's tulpa?

[inxsi]

Don't sell yourself short. All writers seem to worry about how good their story sounds, but you won't know until you publish/post it. And learn from it. A lot of novels have subplots that steer away from the main plot and they seem to do just fine. Look at Game of Thrones. There were plenty of subplots and minor characters unrelated to the war between the Lannisters and Starks and audiences still ate it up. In Leviathan's Wake, the story constantly changes between Miller and Holden, exploring both characters personal lives with characters that either hung on with the story or just made brief appearances.

Just trying to understand the reason for the dislike of it (and if it was just the one part or more). I imagine the story seems like a mess of plot ideas at the moment, which hopefully has a payoff the readers will find worthwhile. On the other hand, I'm committed to the ideas I had for this story since I don't want to rework it again (which was part of why I decided to start posting it - I'd reworked it a few times and decided I wasn't making it better, just different - even if trying a version with Fireblade as the main character was tempting).

So the new guy is one of Alex's tulpa?

Sorry - I'm not sure who you mean here - Claude or Caitlyn?

[Dan Wyatt]

Sorry - I'm not sure who you mean here - Claude or Caitlyn?

Claude.

As per the new info, are there now two individuals named Kaetlin and Caitlyn? Are they also Tulpas?

[inxsi]

Sorry - I'm not sure who you mean here - Claude or Caitlyn?

Claude.

As per the new info, are there now two individuals named Kaetlin and Caitlyn? Are they also Tulpas?

There is Kaetlin (Alex's girlfriend who is a civilian extensively trained in guns) and Caitlyn (a captain with the TCA who also seems to be Alex's girlfriend).

Not sure I have a good answer on the question of whether they are Tulpas. My understanding of a Tulpa is that they would be a free-willed entity within the dream ? They seem to have their own personalities and work against Alex's dream-self so I think they could be? Beryl thinks they are memories of people Alex knew, so they are free-willed but they are only characters acting as the person Alex remembers would - much like someone could have a nightmare of being hunted by Jason Voorhees without that being an independent entity, but it might seem free-willed (since one's dream-self would not want to experience that).

Fireblade didn't tell Beryl what to expect, so she is not aware of what should happen in such a dream (and Fireblade doesn't know what should happen in a non-loroi dream) - maybe all of these are some kind of defense system (like Inception - skilled loroi might be able to do something similar) or just Alex's emotions running loose in a way that normally wouldn't be dangerous for a human. Alex would not want Beryl to actually be hurt in his dream but he might not realize it is a dream (much like people do not want to have nightmares but still do).

[Cthulhu]

The issue is that you have three plot lines, the real-world, the dream-person of Lynne (that Beryl, but not Alex, can remember), and the wholly separate Leviathan dreamscape that neither of then can recall. Then, you are trying to advance all of them at the same time, introducing numerous new characters and switching between subplots all the time. Also, all of them are from the same point of view! Remember how confused you were as I merely hinted at a new plot line in a separate Intermission?

It's not a problem yet, but you need to keep the overall plot line in mind, otherwise, the three subplots may develop a life of their own as they diverge too far away from each other. This will make the reunification of the dream sequences with the waking world later on a big problem, especially if they may become more detailed and elaborate than the reality-based one.

As I said, I have no authority to order you or enough experience to teach you how to write. I'm merely telling you that having so many story lines advance at the same time is quite the challenge.

SpoilerShow

In my fanfic, for example, there's actually only a single one yet. The intermissions merely hint or point out that something related to the overall plot is happening outside the current point of view.

[inxsi]

The issue is that you have three plot lines, the real-world, the dream-person of Lynne (that Beryl, but not Alex, can remember), and the wholly separate Leviathan dreamscape that neither of then can recall. Then, you are trying to advance all of them at the same time, introducing numerous new characters and switching between subplots all the time. Also, all of them are from the same point of view! Remember how confused you were as I merely hinted at a new plot line in a separate Intermission?

It's not a problem yet, but you need to keep the overall plot line in mind, otherwise, the three subplots may develop a life of their own as they diverge too far away from each other. This will make the reunification of the dream sequences with the waking world later on a big problem, especially if they may become more detailed and elaborate than the reality-based one.

As I said, I have no authority to order you or enough experience to teach you how to write. I'm merely telling you that having so many story lines advance at the same time is quite the challenge.

SpoilerShow

In my fanfic, for example, there's actually only a single one yet. The intermissions merely hint or point out that something related to the overall plot is happening outside the current point of view.

That makes sense - it is a concern I have with the story as well. I guess I will have to see how it goes and what readers end up thinking - I have the rest outlined and I think I'd make it worse trying to change anything. Thank you for the feedback.

[Snoofman]

Damn you write quick. How do you do it? Really I want to know because I find myself overthinking sometimes. What's your secret?

Great chapter btw. Something tells me there is more to Caithylin than meets the eye.

[inxsi]

Damn you write quick. How do you do it? Really I want to know because I find myself overthinking sometimes. What's your secret?

Great chapter btw. Something tells me there is more to Caithylin than meets the eye.

Well, I've been thinking of this story (in various forms) for two years before I started posting it. I created a pretty detailed outline to flesh out the plot and cover what would be in each part (and make sure I would have an ending to the story - I worried about running out of ideas part way through the story so I wanted to make sure of that). This was the last of several drafts of the outline - an earlier version had Tempo as the main character entering the dreams until I decided Beryl worked better for the story. And some parts I ended up writing while doing the outline (since they were particularly well-formed as I was outlining or were parts I was really looking forward to) and saved for when I reach that part in the story.

I look over the outline for a part a day or two before I write so I can think about what action needs to happen before I sit down to write - I find it a lot easier to write when I only have to come up with the words to explain what I have pictured in my mind for that scene, and I'm too worried about overlooking something that needed to happen. I end up with a fair amount of time during the day to think about the story so my writing time can be very productive for getting the words written.

You do a very good job of moving your story forward (and I am enjoying it very much) - I don't think I'll ever have the confidence to start writing something to share without a bunch of planning beforehand so I envy you for that.

Glad you enjoyed it - there is probably something about Caitlyn since Beryl told her things that she has not told Ellen (and is not looking forward to telling the other loroi).

[Snoofman]

Damn you write quick. How do you do it? Really I want to know because I find myself overthinking sometimes. What's your secret?

Great chapter btw. Something tells me there is more to Caithylin than meets the eye.

Well, I've been thinking of this story (in various forms) for two years before I started posting it. I created a pretty detailed outline to flesh out the plot and cover what would be in each part (and make sure I would have an ending to the story - I worried about running out of ideas part way through the story so I wanted to make sure of that)...

...I look over the outline for a part a day or two before I write so I can think about what action needs to happen before I sit down to write...

...You do a very good job of moving your story forward (and I am enjoying it very much) - I don't think I'll ever have the confidence to start writing something to share without a bunch of planning beforehand so I envy you for that.

Glad you enjoyed it - there is probably something about Caitlyn since Beryl told her things that she has not told Ellen (and is not looking forward to telling the other loroi).

Good to know and thanks for the advice. And for the praise. I've enjoyed "Dreaming of the Garden" also.

Like I said, don't sell yourself short. When I wrote "Dawn", I spent literally a whole day writing and outlining in my room... just to write half or even a third of a chapter. And then going back to rewrite a few chapters when I wasn't satisfied. It takes a lot out of you. This was a problem because it was interfering with my other responsibilities at home and I became a bit of a hermit, prioritizing writing over socializing with family and friends. I have to plan a bit too when I write, but I found as I wrote out my ideas that what worked in my head didn't quite fit because of roadblocks in the story. That's why I don't stress over details in the outline, because I suspect it might change along the way.

Everyone has different ways of writing. I wrote a fanfic for Avatar years ago in 2010. The story seemed good, but in hindsight the dialogue and writing was terrible. The point is don't regret your stories. Learn from them. Because we all have to start somewhere. You just have to get it out, see what works, and be able to take criticism. In the words of Sean Connery, "No thinking - that comes later. You must write your first draft with your heart. You rewrite with your head. The first key to writing is to write, not to think."

And I'm still learning to follow that advice!

[inxsi]

Good to know and thanks for the advice. And for the praise. I've enjoyed "Dreaming of the Garden" also.

Like I said, don't sell yourself short. When I wrote "Dawn", I spent literally a whole day writing and outlining in my room... just to write half or even a third of a chapter. And then going back to rewrite a few chapters when I wasn't satisfied. It takes a lot out of you. This was a problem because it was interfering with my other responsibilities at home and I became a bit of a hermit, prioritizing writing over socializing with family and friends. I have to plan a bit too when I write, but I found as I wrote out my ideas that what worked in my head didn't quite fit because of roadblocks in the story. That's why I don't stress over details in the outline, because I suspect it might change along the way.

Everyone has different ways of writing. I wrote a fanfic for Avatar years ago in 2010. The story seemed good, but in hindsight the dialogue and writing was terrible. The point is don't regret your stories. Learn from them. Because we all have to start somewhere. You just have to get it out, see what works, and be able to take criticism. In the words of Sean Connery, "No thinking - that comes later. You must write your first draft with your heart. You rewrite with your head. The first key to writing is to write, not to think."

And I'm still learning to follow that advice!

I've tried writing for a full day on the weekends - I end up having two very productive hours and then it drops off very rapidly (even with trying to take breaks) - the same seems to apply to outlining and then trying to write. I can spend some more time on the weekend thinking about the upcoming parts if I have a rough idea for a scene planned - I end up getting more writing done than on a weekday but not that much more. I have listened to some writing podcasts where authors talk about the importance of not letting writing take over your life - and these were full-time authors who can put in a full eight hours on their writing if they want to and still have the free time of writers who are doing their writing in their free time will being a student or working full-time.

[Snoofman]

The ominous video game speaks to Beryl! I wonder what that wish is also.

[inxsi]

Hopefully things will be resolved to the satisfaction of the readers - I guess we will see when we get there.

[Cthulhu]

Beryl using Fireblade as a punching bag to release stress was utterly ridiculous, yet immensely funny. I'll read the rest later, for now, I can finally spend some time with my family and bake them a cake.

[inxsi]

Thanks for the feedback - I am glad you enjoyed the sparring between the two. Enjoy the time with your family.

[Snoofman]

As for me, it did seem bit much for Beryl to get violent with Fireblade. Beryl strikes me as a more level-headed loroi who reasons and is slow to anger, except when there is gossip of an Umiak incursion. But on the other hand, people in real life, even the best among us, take their frustrations unfairly out on easy targets. I should know...

Something tells me the Twins might have had something to do with Claude's demise. Won't say the bastard deserved it, but by the sound of his background he had it coming. Although if he has a wake that Beryl decides to attend, I wonder if she'll see there was a gentler side to the monster.

I also get the feeling the Twins are covering for Lynne (Beryl). Anyway, keep it up.

[Cthulhu]

The leviathan dream was interesting, so those scientists were its minions? But then, where is this realm? In negative hyperspace, perhaps?

[inxsi]

As for me, it did seem bit much for Beryl to get violent with Fireblade. Beryl strikes me as a more level-headed loroi who reasons and is slow to anger, except when there is gossip of an Umiak incursion. But on the other hand, people in real life, even the best among us, take their frustrations unfairly out on easy targets. I should know...

Something tells me the Twins might have had something to do with Claude's demise. Won't say the bastard deserved it, but by the sound of his background he had it coming. Although if he has a wake that Beryl decides to attend, I wonder if she'll see there was a gentler side to the monster.

I also get the feeling the Twins are covering for Lynne (Beryl). Anyway, keep it up.

Thanks for the feedback!

Hopefully today's part clears up what happened between Beryl and Fireblade - I should probably edit the fight part, I think I should have written it more clearly that Beryl lost track of it only being a practice session and so she treated it much more as a real fight than she intended to. I think that Beryl is frustrated since she does not like the deceptions she is doing both in and outside of the dream, but would not intentionally hurt her companions physically. On the other hand, sometimes it is the people who seem the most calm who snap the worst when they finally do.

I will say that the Twins certainly like to act like they know everything that is going on They definitely wanted to cover the cadets legally, whether that is for the protection of the cadets or the Academy's reputation could be debated. I'd like to think they feel that they can deal with the issue internally without the police being involved, and also that they feel that they are protecting Lynne (Beryl) since they view her as less sophisticated as someone who lived on Earth or Mars would be. And this is Lynne's second bad experience with the Academy (the first being stranded in space).

The leviathan dream was interesting, so those scientists were its minions? But then, where is this realm? In negative hyperspace, perhaps?

Yes, the scientists were minions of the leviathan, who are impersonating the umiak scientists who were studying the realm.

My idea was that the realm with the leviathan is somewhere in hyperspace, though I had not decided if it was negative hyperspace or simply much "higher" than any ship has managed to reach - negative probably makes more sense, since it would be awkward for the leviathan to have to dodge ships just trying to travel.

[Cthulhu]

Yes, the scientists were minions of the leviathan, who are impersonating the umiak scientists who were studying the realm.

My idea was that the realm with the leviathan is somewhere in hyperspace, though I had not decided if it was negative hyperspace or simply much "higher" than any ship has managed to reach - negative probably makes more sense, since it would be awkward for the leviathan to have to dodge ships just trying to travel.

Then was that silvery Umiak the representation of an Umiak mind or even "soul" that those creatures feast upon? They sound more like my minions.

As to the new chapter, the last line should've been Beryl asking "Are you interested, then?"

[inxsi]

Then was that silvery Umiak the representation of an Umiak mind or even "soul" that those creatures feast upon? They sound more like my minions.

As to the new chapter, the last line should've been Beryl asking "Are you interested, then?"

Yes - the silvery Umiak is the mind or "soul" of one Umiak, depending on how you interpret sanzai working. It being consumed ends up with the Umiak becoming brain dead in the real world.

[Cthulhu]

Yes - the silvery Umiak is the mind or "soul" of one Umiak, depending on how you interpret sanzai working. It being consumed ends up with the Umiak becoming brain dead in the real world.

How did the Umiak even get in there, or did those minions contact them instead?

Alex seems to be better at flirting than Beryl, although he is too calm about the Loroi invading his mind.

An errorShow

I’ll admit I don’t [know of?] what use I can be though.