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I beg to differ.We have Mannadi, Golim, Neridi, Tithryc , Morat just in there. The rest of the Union also contains Loroi (probably slighly larger space), along with Barsam, Pypolsid and Delrias. Yet in a space roughly the size of the entire union there's only us. The Umiak also appear to have a myriad of species.

Would it be something to do with the nature of the stars in the great wasteland?

hi hi

Travel in Outsider is done from star to star, between stars that are reasonably close enough together. The stars in the Milky Way galaxy are not evenly distributed throughout. If there is an area with few stars, there will be fewer options for travel, and fewer places to host life.

Sol is located in a small cluster of stars near the center of a bubble, aptly named the local bubble. As you can see, there are some areas where there are fewer stars than others.

discord wrote:actually analog signals fare MUCH better on long ranges and 'decoding' interestingly enough, unless you specifically design the signals in that manner(hint, we have not most of the time), analog signals get garbled(but still sorta understandable) while digital get CRC errors and packet loss.....the much lower data density works to the favor of analog signals....and some of those early transmitters were scary powerful.

"the most powerful commercial radio station ever was WLW (700KHz AM), which during certain times in the 1930s broadcasted 500kW radiated power. At night, it covered half the globe. Neighbors within the vicinity of the transmitter heard the audio in their pots, pans, and mattresses."

that is a flipping fuckton of signal, if the combatants do not know where earth is yet, they soon will.

The inverse square law says hello.

I = P/A = P/4*PI*R^2

P = 500,000 W
A = 4 * PI * R^2 = 4 * PI * (6000 KM)^2 = 452,389,342.12 square KM

I = P/A = 500000 / 452389342.12 = 0.0011~ W / square KM, or 1.105 W / square Meter.

This of course is just for a terrestrial distance. We're talking about light years here. Two hundred of them.

1 LY = 9,460,730,472,580,800 Meters
200 LY = 1,892,146,094,516,160,000 Meters

I = P/A = P/4*PI*R^2

4 * PI * (1892146094516160000)^2 = 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 (At this point, my calculator refuses to not use scientific notation)

= 500,000 / 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 = 1.1113498851570630408234376076642e-32 Watts / square meter.

This is ten million times fainter than Voyager 2 (1.9 * 10^-26 W/SqM). In order to get to Voyager 2 levels of being able to hear things across this distance, you'd probably need to increase the signal power by that factor, or a signal of 5,000,000,000,000 Watts, Five trillion watts, A 5 Terawatt signal.

So let's refactor:

5000000000000 / 4.4990331728817951594980068575904e+37 = 1.1113498851570630408234376076642e-25 Watts / square meter.

The only radio telescope capable of transmitting at that level of power is Arecibo AFAIK, and only in the narrow band and not as an isotropic radiator as traditional radio and television signals. It was built in 1963. If they signalled in the precise direction of the Loroi upon the moment of completion at 5 TW, the Loroi would be able to hear it a bit better than we can hear Voyager 2. If they transmitted at the full EIRP of Arecibo, 20 TW, they'd hear that signal about half as well as we can hear Cassini.

However, Outsider's date (2160) is three years too soon for any signal to have been sent.

The chances of the Loroi ever having received signals from Earth is bupkus. Even using an extremely powerful transmitter and signalling as soon as it's complete, assuming that they even transmit in the correct direction and that the Loroi are listening for a signal let alone something they can decode and play back, they're three years away from hearing anything at all at the very best.

I wasn't kidding when I said the odds of them hearing a signal from us is astronomical. It's more likely that we've heard signals from the Loroi, since they've probably had radio longer than we have, and that we've simply missed their signals in all the noise.

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Now, I'm a fan of Babylon 5. Mimicking previous design work is honestly rather common in science fiction, so I'm not even saying they're villains because of it. My guess is they were going for homage, but in that case, I don't think they were designing things with practicality in mind.

Like so:

SpoilerShow

Actually, the Starfury is probably one of the most practical and best star-fighter designs in Sci-Fi.

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Travel in Outsider is done from star to star, between stars that are reasonably close enough together. The stars in the Milky Way galaxy are not evenly distributed throughout. If there is an area with few stars, there will be fewer options for travel, and fewer places to host life.

Sol is located in a small cluster of stars near the center of a bubble, aptly named the local bubble. As you can see, there are some areas where there are fewer stars than others.

But here's my problem: it seems that when stars are closer together it's actually more time-consuming to travel (given that most of the time is spent inside a stellar gravity well, navigating from one jump point to another). Is this correct or am I missing something? Why is that region termed ''The Great Wasteland''? It surely contains stars (prehaps not planets? low metalicity?)

Mr.Tucker wrote: But here's my problem: it seems that when stars are closer together it's actually more time-consuming to travel (given that most of the time is spent inside a stellar gravity well, navigating from one jump point to another). Is this correct or am I missing something? Why is that region termed ''The Great Wasteland''? It surely contains stars (prehaps not planets? low metalicity?)

The stars and maps Arioch is using are based on real astronomical observation and astrometry. It's very likely there are perhaps some brown dwarfs or the like in "The Great Wasteland," but we can be reasonably sure there are no stars.

CJSF

cacambo43 wrote:

Mr.Tucker wrote: But here's my problem: it seems that when stars are closer together it's actually more time-consuming to travel (given that most of the time is spent inside a stellar gravity well, navigating from one jump point to another). Is this correct or am I missing something? Why is that region termed ''The Great Wasteland''? It surely contains stars (prehaps not planets? low metalicity?)

The stars and maps Arioch is using are based on real astronomical observation and astrometry. It's very likely there are perhaps some brown dwarfs or the like in "The Great Wasteland," but we can be reasonably sure there are no stars.

CJSF

I think you missunderstand. There ARE stars there: the TCA systems. Sun, Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Eridani, and many others. The Great Wasteland isn't BETWEEN Loroi and TCA space, it's everything galactic east of Loroi space. So why is it called the Great Wasteland?

The "Silk Road" refers to ancient trade routes that lead spinward out of the Local Bubble, to distant civilizations in the Ophiuchus Superbubble up-arm. The Orgus and other nations along the periphery still have some knowledge of these routes, and the Orgus evidently knew of at least one path that led into what is now Human territory.

The "Great Wasteland" is a region of lower-than-normal star density, with few habitable planets and no known native intelligent species or precursor ruins. It's so-called because nobody lives there. The Loroi haven't expanded in that direction because they haven't found any suitable colonization targets within a comfortable range. The larger distances between stars means you have to make longer jumps through the region; this speeds up travel, but introduces additional risk if you don't have a well-planned, well-surveyed route.

Massive stars and supernovae constantly blow bubbles in the thin gas and dust of the interstellar galactic medium. As these bubbles merge and grow and interact, shock waves form at their boundaries, compressing the gas into nebulae and triggering star formation. The "Gould Belt" that forms the boundary of the Local Bubble along the galactic plane contains many of the well-known nearby star-forming regions and clusters of young, massive stars, including M41 (Canis Major), the Orion Molecular Cloud Complex, the Taurus Molecular Cloud, the Rho Ophiuchi cloud complex, the Scorpius–Centaurus Association and the Coalsack. The nebulosity and massive star clusters in these boundary regions present hazards to jump travel, and so most travel and settlement by interstellar civilizations tends to be confined to the cavities of the superbubbles and the tunnels between them.

Mr.Tucker wrote:
I think you missunderstand. There ARE stars there: the TCA systems. Sun, Alpha Centauri, Epsilon Eridani, and many others. The Great Wasteland isn't BETWEEN Loroi and TCA space, it's everything galactic east of Loroi space. So why is it called the Great Wasteland?

Yes, I did misunderstand you! Thanks for the clarification. See Arioch's reply above!

CJSF

Probably because there are a dearth of inhabited or inhabitable planets in that region. If there's nothing but barren planets (or no planets at all) as far as you can reasonably scout in systems that have greater separation (and thus riskier jumps), and there are far greener pastures closer to home, it becomes reasonable to write off that area in its entirety.

It also explains why humanity is relatively isolated. We rose up around the only oasis in a barren land. The crossing is itself a major risk and a huge endeavour, and the return just as much if not more so.

It could also just be (definitely IMHO) a shoutout to Homeworld, which had a region called The Great Wastelands as you can see Here.

Mr.Tucker wrote:http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/image ... r_map2.gif

I beg to differ.We have Mannadi, Golim, Neridi, Tithryc , Morat just in there. The rest of the Union also contains Loroi (probably slighly larger space), along with Barsam, Pypolsid and Delrias. Yet in a space roughly the size of the entire union there's only us. The Umiak also appear to have a myriad of species.

Would it be something to do with the nature of the stars in the great wasteland?

You're right, those sectors within the Loroi Union, and bordering Umiak space, appear to have a larger density of sentient species. I only took the whole Alliance under consideration, not a couple sectors.

hi hi

One long hyperspace jump might be faster than a bunch of short ones, but it significantly increases the risk of missing your target and being lost in hyperspace forever. Or if you're slightly less unlucky, getting pulled out by a random star that just happened to be in your path, probably billions of lightyears off course.

The question is, was that by random chance, or by some ancient design? Dun dun dun.

In as much as space fighters are practical at all in science fiction, the Starfury is practical in all the same ways that the Gunstar is practical. They have some respect for Newton, but understandably no respect for Tsiolkovsky.

A more symmetrical design might be more effective in terms of maneuverability. A design with propellant tanks might be more plausible in terms of reality.

Arioch wrote:The Loroi haven't expanded in that direction because they haven't found any suitable colonization targets within a comfortable range. The larger distances between stars means you have to make longer jumps through the region; this speeds up travel, but introduces additional risk if you don't have a well-planned, well-surveyed route.

... well, THERE's something Humans could do to help the Loroi.

Jump surveys. Find potential colonies. We're already experienced with performing long, uncertain jumps, so it's something we'd be well prepared for doing. It doesn't require especially high-tech spacecraft, just crews willing to fly on them. And it's exactly the sort of long-term assistance that would help cement Humanity's place in the Alliance, while the Loroi help them gear up for war with the Umiak.

Nah, the Loroi can do it faster than we can either way. We DO have our area mapped and one of the somewhat valuable things we have is our maps and the Orgus maps.

fredgiblet wrote:Nah, the Loroi can do it faster than we can either way. We DO have our area mapped and one of the somewhat valuable things we have is our maps and the Orgus maps.

The Loroi can do it faster, yeah...

... but they haven't, despite having a lot longer to do it in. And now they're probably too busy building and crewing warships to be trying to get survey spacecraft operational.

RedDwarfIV wrote:

fredgiblet wrote:Nah, the Loroi can do it faster than we can either way. We DO have our area mapped and one of the somewhat valuable things we have is our maps and the Orgus maps.

The Loroi can do it faster, yeah...

... but they haven't, despite having a lot longer to do it in. And now they're probably too busy building and crewing warships to be trying to get survey spacecraft operational.

Except for, if I remember correctly, the war is heading into Human space in the near future. The Loroi will map out what they can and just take from us what they don't have. The Human race can't offer anything to the Loroi since they trump us in every aspect.

hi hi

If I were a Loroi commander, I would be suspicious of any navigational maps that were taken by force from an opponent who knew I was coming. It would be enough to wipe the records out of spite, but option of faking records could be even more devastating.

icekatze wrote:hi hi

One long hyperspace jump might be faster than a bunch of short ones, but it significantly increases the risk of missing your target and being lost in hyperspace forever. Or if you're slightly less unlucky, getting pulled out by a random star that just happened to be in your path, probably billions of lightyears off course.

The question is, was that by random chance, or by some ancient design? Dun dun dun.

In as much as space fighters are practical at all in science fiction, the Starfury is practical in all the same ways that the Gunstar is practical. They have some respect for Newton, but understandably no respect for Tsiolkovsky.

A more symmetrical design might be more effective in terms of maneuverability. A design with propellant tanks might be more plausible in terms of reality.

Tetships are overcomplicated for the limited redundancy they provide. Linear designs, I think, will see popular usage long into the development of spheroids and long after spheres are abandoned as a waste of structural bracing.

Proper space-fighters, IMNSHO, would be short-range attack drones, the archetypal 'lancer'; a small AWACS craft sits off at the edge of the engagement window (with escort) and holds the drone operations shed in a mission module section, possibly multiple sheds if the admiralty feels safe putting all their eggs in one basket. AWACS serve dual role as jamming and counter-jamming specialist craft in addition to being the primary operations platform for drone pilots. Think of it like an AC-130 except your guns are a flock of predator drones three hundred miles off your port window and your gunners sit in the spooky piloting them; there is also a large semi-offensive radome on the roof. Drone launch cradles optional. Your enemy is the russian version piloting a much larger cloud of long-range cruise missiles through your spooky's jamming cloud- the mission is to efficiently cycle your predators through the engagement zone as they launch missiles at missiles and return to an airfield to rearm while the airfield launches more predators to replace them before the remaining russian missiles can reach the airfield and hit sensitive buildings. If you're lucky, you will be able to take out the Russian Spooky before you run out of predator drones or time and be able to jam the weaker radars on the unassisted cruise missiles.

By the way, the russians have an arsenal ship over the horizon and are launching more cruise missiles to resupply their spooky operators. If either of your launch facilities are slightly off on their timing, especially your ground crews rearming, launching, and landing the predator drones, the other side will quickly gain numerical superiority and defeat the opposing AWACS craft and its escorts before moving on to the airfield/arsenal ship. The russians have logistical advantage, you have the endurance advantage.

Easy Mode: your enemy has only one flight of drones and no launch facilities to reinforce its combat cloud
Hard Mode: both sides have multiple AWACS groups trying to outmaneuver each other
Nightmare Mode: they also have multiple launch facilities
Bear Mode: Russian arsenal ships can launch all of their missiles at once, the war is now to beat their logistical chain of arsenals rotating out of the motherland's homewaters
Bugbear Mode: apply these concepts to two spacefaring parties where distances are longer, timing is critical, and communication is limited to what your personal taskforce can see through the lightspeed barrier. you still aren't the russians.

Welcome to to the Loroi/Umiak spacewar.

hi hi

All the problems that Tetships have are exactly the same problems that the Starfury would have, only worse, since they're not symmetrical on all axes. I'm not even going to get into a discussion about what an actual realistic space fighter might be like, cause space is so vastly different than atmospheric engagements that trying to make comparisons is inevitably going to be silly. My only point, which I will reiterate, is that the designs were largely inspired by previous science fiction entries, with all the realism (proper RCS thrusters) and un-realism (Having the CIC on an exposed tower) that the past designs had.

"Yes, I can confirm that I ‘lifted’ the centre section off the Leonov in 2010 for the centrifuge. That's why the profile is exactly the same. I was feeling mischievous, so I added this little nod to the design. I thought someone was going to spot it immediately but no, it was years before anybody called me on it (it would have been an easy fix to change the profile)."

— Paul Bryant

Whether this is homage or a rip-off, is also something I am not making a statement on. It does happen all the time in science fiction though.

Has Arioch or anyone else mentioned how large/powerful Terran civilian vessels are? If there are any battleship size freighters which can be retrofitted into combat capable vessels, I would think that would help quite a bit.

I was just reading about Zheng He's Merchant Fleet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zheng_He

And specifically the massive size of his aptly named "treasure ships":http://5thworld.com/Paradigm/Postings/! ... 20Ship.jpg

I have to wonder how the Loroi/Umiak would feel if a few dozen 1000+ meter long, heavily armed merchant vessels suddenly showed up in their territory looking to trade.