Well of Souls Forums

Ithekro wrote:While Earth doesn't have much of a fleet, and they are technologically inferior. I wonder if they have the means of forming a commerce raiding group that could attack a long supply chain?

I reckon even the commerce -and transport ships of both the Umiak and Loroi have a significant acceleration advantage over any Human ship.
And a single escort vessel should be sufficient to deter a Human raiding group

If they're military convoy/resupply ships, they might even be armed with what Loroi/Umiak military consider to be basic armaments, which would still outgun a Human military ship.
On top of that, their drive technology should be sufficiently far advanced enough that us attacking their supply lines would require a considerable logistical planning and effort, nearly matching their effort to get to us. Better drives means longer range per flight, so for the distance it takes them to get here, we need a lot more effort to get around their front line to be able to attack supply lines...

Nope, not feasible, IMHO.

Ithekro wrote:Tactically, what options do the Terrans have in facing either of the currant combatants in a small skirmish in neutral space?

Strategically, Terrans have an advantage of being a long ways away from both major combatant's spheres of influence, and thus to mount any kind of offensive in the direction of Earth would require a large supply train or a long series of expeditions to set up supply bases as their territory expands in Earth's direction to reduce the length of the supply chain.

While Earth doesn't have much of a fleet, and they are technologically inferior. I wonder if they have the means of forming a commerce raiding group that could attack a long supply chain?

Tactical options depend heavily on the context of who they're fighting, where, and why... all of which is hypothetical at this point, as I think it's probably unlikely that a human force would attempt to engage the enemy unaided outside their own territory. In general, since human ships are likely at this point to be outclassed in numbers, speed, firepower, range and endurance by most any hypothetical opponent, I can't say there are a lot of good options. Human forces need to find some kind of way to get the enemy at very close range, and that's difficult to do out in no man's land.

Commerce raiding is difficult in Outsider because of the way jump drive makes it relatively easy to isolate the enemy's forces from your own. All you have to do is control the star systems along the front lines to prevent the enemy from having any access to your supply lines, which is why breakthroughs or flanking/bypass movements are so important. Although a hypothetical attack on human territory presents some long supply lines to maintain, humanity is at an extra disadvantage, because (as the others mention above) even its fastest warships are slower than most Loroi or Umiak supply vessels, and human ships have shorter endurance, making flanking movements or extended chases more difficult.

Given the severe near-term disadvantages that humanity has in fleet strengths and technology, I think you have to expect that the only circumstance under which human vessels will be fighting in this war would be in some kind of cooperative manner in concert with allied forces. In the hypothetical case where one side got an invasion force into human territory before the other side could get any of their own forces there to help defend, it's difficult to see a case where solo human forces wouldn't simply get walked over. One can't say for certain without knowing all the details of the situation, but I think it's most likely in such a case that the human forces would be better off to simply surrender.

I think the best use for current human ships in a mixed battle would be as part of a force defending a location, where their reduced speed and shorter weapons range will be less of a disadvantage. If the allied ships have to stay near to this location anyway, the human ships can stay near enough to provide defensive fire with their shorter-ranged weapons.

On the plus side, humanity's distance and technological disadvantage should make it a very unattractive target.

Provided the Loroi aren't lying about whether they genocide neutrals, the original issue that drove the TCA to try to make contact may not even be real. There is no reason they must join one side or the other, and they don't have the tech level to affect the outcome even if they did get involved. All the problems discussed with uplifting the TCA's tech base apply just as much to anyone trying to conquer and enslave humanity for the extra industrial capacity.


The war would be over one way or the other long before humanity becomes advanced enough for either side to take notice (even the scout ships might not make them care enough to bother launching an attack on humanity.)

Krulle wrote:If they're military convoy/resupply ships, they might even be armed with what Loroi/Umiak military consider to be basic armaments, which would still outgun a Human military ship.
On top of that, their drive technology should be sufficiently far advanced enough that us attacking their supply lines would require a considerable logistical planning and effort, nearly matching their effort to get to us. Better drives means longer range per flight, so for the distance it takes them to get here, we need a lot more effort to get around their front line to be able to attack supply lines...

Nope, not feasible, IMHO.

I suspect that better jumpdrives can consider some jump zones viable that a human vessel would not try allowing more advanced ships to take other routes with fewer jumps to get to the same destination.

Best utility human ships would have is:
1) Point defence, owing to their large number of laser weapon mounts. You can use a heavy laser to shoot down a missile just as easily as a light laser. Must make sure you can keep up, however, with whatever it is you be defending. So, restricted to battlestations, which have lower innate acceleration, and can kill offending ships proper.
2) Clean up: letting their more advanced allies move onwards, while not wasting time bombarding planets and taking out space-borne structures. The size and lower acceleration of battlestations means that they would be vulnerable to mass driver fire from much further away than ships. And since slugs are unaffected by shields, they can do their full damage. Same for the Mjolnir.

The Terrans should have the advantage of mapping the region and knowing the jump routes. It will take time for others to learn all that. Knowing all the jump routes around various systems can at least be useful knowledge for ambushes and flanking maneuvers.

Ithekro wrote:The Terrans should have the advantage of mapping the region and knowing the jump routes. It will take time for others to learn all that. Knowing all the jump routes around various systems can at least be useful knowledge for ambushes and flanking maneuvers.

If there is an unknown fourth loroi world in Hiarchy space then the Hiarchy forces may have access to their own careers. If that is true humans, in slightly obsolete Union vessels doing mapping missions could really be useful.

Question: it is my understanding that the TCA in 2160 is roughly on technological parity with the Loroi as they were during the Delrias (or maybe Mannadi?) wars. However, the Loroi are notable for having used space fighters in most instances before the Umiak War made them mostly obsolete.
So... does humanity use fighters? If not, why not?

Humans use defense drones with point defense lasers, from what I recall.

Ithekro wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 2:35 am

Humans use defense drones with point defense lasers, from what I recall.

And did the Loroi and Delrias/Mannadi... not?

Humans have the technology to build fighters, but they don't have any carriers. Humanity hasn't fought a real "hot war" in space, and so the Colonial Fleet is mainly a police force. Even the heavy cruisers are overkill for patrol duties; they haven't had any need for carriers.

The Loroi used manned fighters that can pull 40G accelerations. The Human built drones can do 4G acceleration. But you they are tiny, so you could fit more in a hanger, and mass a hundred times less than a Loroi heavy fighter. (Terran drones are only 4 tons). Earth has the smallest combat craft.

Earth only had First Contact with an alien race around 21 months ago, as Alex is stuck in a drifting Loroi pinnace. They are currently trying to upgrade with what they could get out of the Orgus and any experimental weaponry that was in development. Refitting their heavy cruisers with spinal particle cannons and building a new class of destroyer armed with the same spinal particle cannons is their first step to attempting to field a force that can at least threaten an invading fleet. However Earth's weapon only become effective around 20 Megameters, while typical Umiak weapons are becoming as effective at 90 Megameters. And Earth's ace in the hole (the mass drivers), have even shorter effective ranges against fast moving warships, in the 2 to 4 Megameter range. Assuming that the Umiak don't just melt the projectiles with their plasma weapons.

I understand lack of carriers but aren't station based fighters patrols will be much cheaper that corvette patrols?

Chekist_Felix wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:10 pm

I understand lack of carriers but aren't station based fighters patrols will be much cheaper that corvette patrols?

I doubt a fighter has the endurance to patrol at days' end.

Earth drones have the shortest range. They have the least amount of fuel and low acceleration. They are for point defense against missiles, I think. Loroi fighters might be able to operate across system for a time, but Earth does not have that luxury. Earth just doesn't have the acceleration possible for a manned fighter to do interplanetary patrols.

Chekist_Felix wrote: ↑

Wed Aug 12, 2020 4:10 pm

I understand lack of carriers but aren't station based fighters patrols will be much cheaper that corvette patrols?

I guess that depends on what your patrol needs are. Stations have pretty good visibility of most of the star system, so I think the patrol needs are: a) check the outskirts of the system for suspect activity near outer planets that might be hidden from station view; b) "show the flag" by having armed vessels cruising out in the flow of civilian traffic as a deterrent to misbehavior and to be ready to respond to distress calls; c) check what's in the neighboring systems. Small craft, especially very small ones, have limited endurance and no jump drives, so they're not really well suited to any of these tasks.

I suppose the notion then is that space is sparsely populated to the point that fighter patrol range is largely inadequate so therefore larger ships are needed.

I don't remember this question being asked (it may have been), but why would someone in the mid-22nd century know the ending theme of the Mickey Mouse Club? I barely know it because they showed reruns of the original Mickey Mouse Club on the Disney Channel when they started up decades ago (around 1990). I would question how someone born in this century would even know that song, much less someone born over a hundred years from now.

(I find the song appropriate for the mood, just I don't know why Alex would even know that song).

Ithekro wrote: ↑

Sun Feb 21, 2021 8:49 am

I don't remember this question being asked (it may have been), but why would someone in the mid-22nd century know the ending theme of the Mickey Mouse Club? I barely know it because they showed reruns of the original Mickey Mouse Club on the Disney Channel when they started up decades ago (around 1990). I would question how someone born in this century would even know that song, much less someone born over a hundred years from now.

(I find the song appropriate for the mood, just I don't know why Alex would even know that song).

Well, as a practical matter of storytelling, the references wouldn't be meaningful if the contemporary audience didn't recognize them. But I don't think it's implausible that someone would know music from earlier eras. The Mickey Mouse Club song is from 1955, before I or most likely anyone here was born, but we all know it. In addition to reruns of the actual show, it's referenced in other more modern media; music becomes part of the culture. I routinely hum tunes from Tchaikovsky, Beethoven, and Bach that are 141, 217, and 298 years old, respectively... and I doubt that's unusual, even though those are from eras even before recorded music.