Well of Souls Forums

boldilocks wrote:If running 10 km burns 700-1000 kcal in a human, would it burn the same amount in a loroi, or is their musculature simply more efficient at the point of use.

I think the Loroi muscle system is probably slightly more efficient in terms of generating less waste heat, but it's probably not a major difference. I think the largest difference is in the idling state, with a lower body temperature and more efficient homeostasis mechanisms. Humans (and most mammals) burn a lot of energy just sitting around.

That high body heat has a function, and while it is ineffective in and of itself to produce that heat, it causes faster, and often moderately more efferent chemical reactions in other places in the cells. The Loroi lower body heat might not really be all that much of an advantage in many cases.

asaenvolk wrote:That high body heat has a function, and while it is ineffective in and of itself to produce that heat, it causes faster, and often moderately more efferent chemical reactions in other places in the cells. The Loroi lower body heat might not really be all that much of an advantage in many cases.

I think we need to infer that the Soia-Liron body chemistry works slightly differently, and is efficient at this lower temperature. Otherwise, as you mention, it wouldn't be an advantage.

So, they're not just cold-blooded killing machines?

(I'm sure you=ve read this joke many times before, but could not resist it anyway - sorry)

I assume the Loroi can give birth to identical twins but that they would feel different to their sanzai. Is that accurate and would that be well known to the Loroi?

inxsi wrote:I assume the Loroi can give birth to identical twins but that they would feel different to their sanzai. Is that accurate and would that be well known to the Loroi?

Loroi can have twins, though this is more rare in Loroi than in humans. Identical twins are formed from the same DNA, but they are two individual organisms, each with a distinct mind, so in terms of telepathic signatures they are not appreciably different from two unrelated persons.

How large were the original populations of the Sister Worlds after the Fall?

Can the Loroi see traces of genetic bottlenecks in their genome?

Werra wrote:How large were the original populations of the Sister Worlds after the Fall?

Can the Loroi see traces of genetic bottlenecks in their genome?

There's no way to know for sure... as there are no samples of pre-Fall Loroi or other Loroi populations that did not experience population bottlenecks to compare them to, but the distinct differences in the gene pools of the three Sister Worlds combined with a general lack of diversity suggests that the populations may have gotten quite small in some cases -- perhaps less than 100 individuals on Perrein, for example.

Deinar probably started with a larger population, but suffered repeated bottlenecks due to the overpopulation cycles of the nomadic tribes.

Question, Arioch: were there any fossils/skeletal remains found from the time of the Fall? If there are, how different were those Loroi compared to todays' ? Were they augmented in any way?

Mr.Tucker wrote:Question, Arioch: were there any fossils/skeletal remains found from the time of the Fall? If there are, how different were those Loroi compared to todays' ? Were they augmented in any way?

Yes, there are Loroi remains starting around the time of the Fall. The skeletons are not substantially different from modern Loroi, taking into account regional variations over the intervening ~275,000 years.

What sort of "augmentations" do you mean?

Arioch wrote:

Mr.Tucker wrote:Question, Arioch: were there any fossils/skeletal remains found from the time of the Fall? If there are, how different were those Loroi compared to todays' ? Were they augmented in any way?

Yes, there are Loroi remains starting around the time of the Fall. The skeletons are not substantially different from modern Loroi, taking into account regional variations over the intervening ~275,000 years.

What sort of "augmentations" do you mean?

Of course outsider is just for fun & i don't expect it to be logical.

However, you are aware that because of selection, the loroi distribution of male/female offspring is unstable and would quickly tend towards a 50/50 distribution if not artificially kept in check?

Arioch wrote:What sort of "augmentations" do you mean?

I'd expect to see medical procedures, artificial teeth, implanted hearing aids, titanium screws and plates and other such stuff. And also scars from space age weaponry. Other kinds of augmentations that might keep as long could be cybernetic upgrades and sidegrades. Maybe something as simple as those plugs modern day Loroi have for amplifiers.
But such things would only appear in the very first generations post-fall.

Arent wrote:However, you are aware that because of selection, the loroi distribution of male/female offspring is unstable and would quickly tend towards a 50/50 distribution if not artificially kept in check?

That's only true if it's beneficial for a tribe of Loroi to have parity in gender ratios. Which isn't a given, since Loroi are highly dimorphic. More menfolk around puts a higher strain on fewer females to procure more resources.

Werra wrote:That's only true if it's beneficial for a tribe of Loroi to have parity in gender ratios. Which isn't a given, since Loroi are highly dimorphic. More menfolk around puts a higher strain on fewer females to procure more resources.

You mean because the men are so small they can't equally contribute? Could be, but if you have a single mutation that produces a man as large as a common Loroi female that would immediately remove that restriction.

Arent wrote:However, you are aware that because of selection, the loroi distribution of male/female offspring is unstable and would quickly tend towards a 50/50 distribution if not artificially kept in check?

There are all kinds of Earth organisms that don't have a 50/50 gender distribution, and there are lots of different mechanisms for gender determination (of which X/Y is only one; RI has a really interesting video on the evolution of gender here). Especially given that Loroi genes have been artificially modified (at the very least), I don't think it's implausible that Loroi gender determination could use a mechanism that does not easily allow the distribution to float.

However, even if it could float, I'm not sure it's necessarily the case that it would drift to a more even distribution. I was thinking about the subject some time ago and it occurred to me that there would seem to be a strong selection pressure for females to give birth to more males, since a female with more male offspring will have more descendants. However, there is also significant pressure in the opposite direction in favor of the survival of the group, since a smaller percentage of females means a smaller fighting force and a lower reproduction rate (since total maximum reproduction is limited by the number of females, not males). There are plenty of examples, especially in social animals, of cases where benefit to the group seems to trump the "selfish genes" of the individual, since if the entire group is wiped out, the individual also loses.

One possible adaptation is that the males could get larger, so that they can better participate in key activities. However, another possible adaptation is to make the males as small and few in number as possible, so that they consume the minimum amount of resources. We see the latter adaptation in many Earth species.

Werra wrote:I'd expect to see medical procedures, artificial teeth, implanted hearing aids, titanium screws and plates and other such stuff. And also scars from space age weaponry. Other kinds of augmentations that might keep as long could be cybernetic upgrades and sidegrades. Maybe something as simple as those plugs modern day Loroi have for amplifiers.
But such things would only appear in the very first generations post-fall.

The number of remains that have been clearly identified as first-generation after the Fall is fairly small. It seems logical that those proto-Loroi enclaves that still had access to ultra-tech tools used methods of corpse disposal that left no observable remains, and so the only surviving examples are ones in which the body was either left in place or else disposed of by lower-tech means (often burned in mass pyres). These examples usually show lower-tech injuries, or more mundane causes of death such as exposure or malnutrition. There aren't any known, unambiguous examples of bone injury such as a blaster might cause.

TL10+ medicine mostly involves regeneration and reconstruction using native tissues, so you can see cases of bone injury that has been healed, but you don't really see the kinds of prostheses and mechanical repairs that you might in modern humans. A healed blaster wound wouldn't look much different from any other kind of healed bone injury, so you would only expect to see a distinctive wound if it happened after ultra-tech medicine was no longer available, or if it was fatal and the body was not disposed of via ultra-tech methods. Loroi tradition holds that the first terrestrial settlements were survivors from the lost dread-stars after the conflict was over; if there were any wounded bearing the distinctive marks of ultra-tech small arms, it seems they did not make it to the surface... or else they died and were disposed of before ultra-tech methods failed.

The only examples of cybernetic augmentation that exist are individuals with psionic amplifiers. There are only a few examples of this, found on Mezan as part of what seems to have been a group that all died together, seemingly of exposure. It was the discovery of this group, along with the remains of manufacturing facilities found elsewhere on the planet, that allowed to Loroi to figure out and replicate the function of the amplifiers.

Arent wrote:You mean because the men are so small they can't equally contribute? Could be, but if you have a single mutation that produces a man as large as a common Loroi female that would immediately remove that restriction.

We can only speculate, but I don't think it would be so simple. There's more to it than size and even then, a large male could be disadvantaged in other ways. Such as being seen as feminine.

@Arioch
Did that group contain examples of both telekinetic and telepathic amplifiers?

Werra wrote:Did that group contain examples of both telekinetic and telepathic amplifiers?

The examples found on Mezan comprise essentially all the types of amplifiers that are currently used by the Loroi. They haven't really invented much in the field that's new, since they understand how but not really why the amplifiers work.

Arioch wrote:The examples found on Mezan comprise essentially all the types of amplifiers that are currently used by the Loroi. They haven't really invented much in the field that's new, since they understand how but not really why the amplifiers work.

Then Farseers were either included in that original group or don't use specialised amplifiers.

Why do I feel the urge to listen to Saboteurs from Sabaton now?

Edit: It also means there were no amplifiers in circulation on Deinar before they reached Mezan. Which is really strange for a random selection of warriors numbering hundreds. Could Deinarid Loroi all be descended from civilians?

Werra wrote:Edit: It also means there were no amplifiers in circulation on Deinar before they reached Mezan. Which is really strange for a random selection of warriors numbering hundreds. Could Deinarid Loroi all be descended from civilians?

I can't remember if it was ever stated on the forum that current-day Loroi civilians are barred from carrying amplifiers.

Besides, it could also be that only the dry conditions on Mezan kept the amplifier artifacts sufficiently intact for study in the current era.

Arioch wrote:

Arent wrote:However, you are aware that because of selection, the loroi distribution of male/female offspring is unstable and would quickly tend towards a 50/50 distribution if not artificially kept in check?

There are all kinds of Earth organisms that don't have a 50/50 gender distribution, and there are lots of different mechanisms for gender determination (of which X/Y is only one; RI has a really interesting video on the evolution of gender here). Especially given that Loroi genes have been artificially modified (at the very least), I don't think it's implausible that Loroi gender determination could use a mechanism that does not easily allow the distribution to float.

However, even if it could float, I'm not sure it's necessarily the case that it would drift to a more even distribution. I was thinking about the subject some time ago and it occurred to me that there would seem to be a strong selection pressure for females to give birth to more males, since a female with more male offspring will have more descendants. However, there is also significant pressure in the opposite direction in favor of the survival of the group, since a smaller percentage of females means a smaller fighting force and a lower reproduction rate (since total maximum reproduction is limited by the number of females, not males). There are plenty of examples, especially in social animals, of cases where benefit to the group seems to trump the "selfish genes" of the individual, since if the entire group is wiped out, the individual also loses.

One possible adaptation is that the males could get larger, so that they can better participate in key activities. However, another possible adaptation is to make the males as small and few in number as possible, so that they consume the minimum amount of resources. We see the latter adaptation in many Earth species.

Well, you could argue that the Soia designed the Loroi such that several mutations would be necessary to overcome the differences between the sexes & that those mutations are even designed to be lethal. In that case, such a development might still occur over long timeframes, but it would be less likely.

Arioch wrote: The only examples of cybernetic augmentation that exist are individuals with psionic amplifiers. There are only a few examples of this, found on Mezan as part of what seems to have been a group that all died together, seemingly of exposure. It was the discovery of this group, along with the remains of manufacturing facilities found elsewhere on the planet, that allowed to Loroi to figure out and replicate the function of the amplifiers.

Ty, this was what I wanted to know.

WRT the gender imbalance, I would like to point out that having a small (and presumably isolated, with controlled access) gender (male or female) makes it quite easy to tweak genetic characteristics and see those tweeks carried out through the rest of the populace easily. A single male sires hundreds throughout his life.