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Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
hi hi

Maybe it's time to separate the discussion on racism and immigration to another topic so it can more easily be skipped.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 10:07 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Or....get it back on topic.

What if Alex gets confronted with a Loroi argument for genetic superiority? Any possible counter arguments you guys can think off?


Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:14 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Werra wrote:
Or....get it back on topic.

What if Alex gets confronted with a Loroi argument for genetic superiority? Any possible counter arguments you guys can think off?

In terms of being an interstellar species of war I think the Loroi have the evidence on their side. Though, a disruptive counter-argument would be to point out that their enemies have fought them to a stand-still.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 11:49 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Werra wrote:
Or....get it back on topic.

What if Alex gets confronted with a Loroi argument for genetic superiority? Any possible counter arguments you guys can think off?


Obviously, that the ability to be telepatically resistant or invisible is highly desirable.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:08 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arent wrote:
Werra wrote:
Or....get it back on topic.

What if Alex gets confronted with a Loroi argument for genetic superiority? Any possible counter arguments you guys can think off?


Obviously, that the ability to be telepatically resistant or invisible is highly desirable.

Is it? Any Loroi found dead can suddenly be blamed on humans, the 'perfect assassins'.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:29 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
EDIT: Deleted.

You know what, there's not a lot of point in us smugly arguing our corners at each other.

I will leave one thought: it would indeed suck for a person to be perceived as inferior and unfairly suspected of wrongdoing just because they were different from the majority population.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 1:52 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
kiwi wrote:
I will leave one thought: it would indeed suck for a person to be perceived as inferior and unfairly suspected of wrongdoing just because they were different from the majority population.

Key-word being unfairly.


Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:41 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
As I said - if we can't even agree on the facts, we're nowhere.

Have fun sledging this back on topic. Imma hang out elsewhere for a bit.

CJSF


Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:07 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Immigration
Spoiler: show
icekatze wrote:
You might be surprised at how much an influence peoples' environment has on their behavior.

Werra wrote:
The general heritability of polygenic traits is actually around 80%. In addition consider that the childrens genes are already actively shaping the environment thanks to the parental generation providing it.
Which isn't even important imo, since european age brackets are well known. Why would migrants that come for wealth switch their culture if they know that in 30 years their people make up sizeable parts of the populace?
Fun fact: Berlin has a shortage of german children. In some schools 90+% of the children do not speak German as a primary language. Not new arrivals, 3th or 4th generation.
Which, again, is only partially true. Seeing the male lineage, yes, it might be 3rd or later generations, but in most cases the sons go to their ancestral country and take a wife from there (as dictated by historical traditions). She is 1st generation immigrant then, has never learned Berlinerisch (nor German), and therefore her kids are 2nd generation again. The daugthers often go home, and stay there, marrying there (or being married).


Also, "viable" political parties for muslims and the like already exist in Europe. In the Netherlands they've become sought-after coalition partners in municipal councils.
I am fearing the day the muslim parties are not "muslim", but "wahib", "Sunni", or whatever direction within the islam.
(edit: sorry, I replied after the quoted post, and did not see the calls for "back to topic"....)

Spoiler: show
Anyway, edits to reply to the rest:
Also, I am an expat, living in the ghetto of Expats, German sub-ghetto.
And I've learned the local language.

But I am ashamed if a colleague retires after 20 years here, and speaks no Dutch. Their spouse and kids usually do, but having worked in the English expat community (where work is also in English), work put no pressure on them to learn it. Alas.

And colleagues who do learn it tell stories of "I go to the butcher, baker,... instead of supermarket to be able to talk Dutch. But when I try to order something in Dutch, I get an English reply.".
Well. My baker, butcher, ... does not understand English if you tell him you're trying to learn his language.... Which apparently the one my colleagues go to don't (I also live in the suburb, and not in the city.)


boldilocks wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
Which they by and large DO, despite sound bites and social media shares to the contrary. Just because someone is speaking another language around you doesn't mean they don't know your language too. This is especially true of the 2nd and 3rd generations. Immigrants (legal an otherwise) are statistically less likely to be a burden to "the state" than citizens/born-heres.


That's certainly not the case in my country. Here, both 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants are a burden on the welfare state, in that they are taking more out of the system than they are putting in, and I am not aware of any 1st world nation where that is not the case.

Germany. The big immigration wave of Greeks, Italians, and Turkish peoples of the 50's, 60's and early 70's made Germany the rich country it is today. Without them, our economy would've starved back then, and the jobs would've move abroad.
So, yes, they brought massively more into the social systems than they took out.
So much indeed, that the current costs right now don't even weigh in on the numbers yet. (and that aside from the moral obligations German put on itself after the havoc it caused during the second worldwar)
That might change sometime, but I fear the automatization of Industry will cause more job losses than the number of jobs immigrants took.

(Also, the immigrants coming is largely our fault too. We spent development money on feeding and arming them, instead of teaching them how to farm and build their own future. But that discussion would open even more cans of worms.)



And I agree, Loroi would be a novelty in our society, but I fear they would integrate rather badly.
Best chances to increase production and synergize abilities would be through the use of military Loroi of the engineer departments being stationed to work together with Human engineers.
But free, solitary Loroi? Nah.


Arent wrote:
Werra wrote:
Or....get it back on topic.

What if Alex gets confronted with a Loroi argument for genetic superiority? Any possible counter arguments you guys can think off?


Obviously, that the ability to be telepatically resistant or invisible is highly desirable.

Sure. Because genetic superiority apparently has been given to them as being an artificial species, despite their claims of being the true Soia-inheriters.
And if they are truly evolutionary results, as they claim, then their genes are evolution-made, with all the drawbacks that has.

But still, they haven't found out how telepathy works, while the Umiak apparently have found a way to remain undetected. Which apparently the Loroi haven't found out themselves.
This just proves that teh Umiak are prima-facie better.

While the Loroi bodies may work their tasks better than the Umiak counterparts, in a world where tools are used, the use of the tools is more important than what our body can do, and the use of tools is limited by the brain and its adaptability to new tools. (See the result of Humans on Earth. We are far from being the strongest animal, cannot climb or jump well, don't exactly breed fast, yet we have conquered Earth.)
Which apparently the Umiak can do better, so the "genetic superiority" lies with the Umiak, and the Humanity might be ill-advised to join the Loroi Union if this is the Loroi reaction...

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Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:51 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
boldilocks wrote:
Arent wrote:
Obviously, that the ability to be telepatically resistant or invisible is highly desirable.

Is it? Any Loroi found dead can suddenly be blamed on humans, the 'perfect assassins'.


Exactly! They are the perfect assassins! Tempo should immediately recruit Alex as Mizol :mrgreen:


---

Immigration:
Spoiler: show
Guys, the point of a common state is not, and has never been, economic questions or money. The question is whether someone is trustworthy. We have groups like IS, Hamas, BDS, which do ethnic cleanings, slavemarkets, terror attacks, they call western countries animals, they want to wipe them out.

I am extremely disappointed by the left, that they try to hush up and divert attention from this actual racism and antisemitism. And that some extreme leftists even cooperate with Hamas, BDS or grant citizenship to IS members.

You simply have to check whether someone is trustworthy. If people hate French, English, Germans or simply pursue organized crime as their professional 'career', you can't give them citizenship.


Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:07 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Immigration:
Spoiler: show
Arent wrote:
Guys, the point of a common state is not, and has never been, economic questions or money. The question is whether someone is trustworthy. We have groups like IS, Hamas, BDS, which do ethnic cleanings, slavemarkets, terror attacks, they call western countries animals, they want to wipe them out.

I am extremely disappointed by the left, that they try to hush up and divert attention from this actual racism and antisemitism. And that some extreme leftists even cooperate with Hamas, BDS or grant citizenship to IS members.

You simply have to check whether someone is trustworthy. If people hate French, English, Germans or simply pursue organized crime as their professional 'career', you can't give them citizenship.

True, but in out democracies, where innocence is presumed until proven otherwise, authorities cannot deny someone from Syria anything.
The authorities are also not equipped with enough manpower and money to check the background of everyone. Nor are they legally equipped to do so.
The problem is in having changed the immigration laws and citizenship laws to the degree, that citizenship is attainable easily.
And easing the laws without providing the means to do the "required" background checks?

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Mon Sep 16, 2019 4:33 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arent wrote:
boldilocks wrote:
Arent wrote:
Obviously, that the ability to be telepatically resistant or invisible is highly desirable.

Is it? Any Loroi found dead can suddenly be blamed on humans, the 'perfect assassins'.


Exactly! They are the perfect assassins! Tempo should immediately recruit Alex as Mizol :mrgreen:


But that presents a problemt. With Loroi, you can be assured of loyalty as telepathy guarantees truthfulness, with humans, who knows where their loyalties lie?

---

Immigration:
Spoiler: show
Arent wrote:
Guys, the point of a common state is not, and has never been, economic questions or money. The question is whether someone is trustworthy. We have groups like IS, Hamas, BDS, which do ethnic cleanings, slavemarkets, terror attacks, they call western countries animals, they want to wipe them out.

I am extremely disappointed by the left, that they try to hush up and divert attention from this actual racism and antisemitism. And that some extreme leftists even cooperate with Hamas, BDS or grant citizenship to IS members.

You simply have to check whether someone is trustworthy. If people hate French, English, Germans or simply pursue organized crime as their professional 'career', you can't give them citizenship.


On the contrary, states have historically been founded along ethnic or racial lines. And I see no more ethical problems in hamas ethnically cleansing their lands than israelis ethnically cleansing israel. These are fundamentally ethnic nations trying to secure their own people. As for slave-markets, I find it ironic for westerners to complain about slavemarkets that began to thrive once the western powers decided to have gadhafi, a more or less secular dictator of the region, deposed and murdered, when he was instrumental in striking down on and suppressing these kinds of activities. Or like the attempt in Syria.


Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:32 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
It is in TCA interest to get as much loroi at their hands as possible, and more important, make them VERY happy.

It will allow TCA to get huge advantage in case Loroi once will decide to remove kebab attack TCA, simply because TCA will be able to see Loroi fleet movement, but Loroi wont be able to see TCA fleet movements.


Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:36 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Having a few Loroi immigrants doesn't give you Farseer capability.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
That only means the Loroi won't be able to detect TCA movements in nearby star systems via Farseer. The TCA will still be in the dark unless they can use the Loroi's telepathic blindness to Humans as a tactical advantage in setting up well hidden observation posts along the systems leading to TCA space, and just hoping the Loroi sensors aren't up to detecting their outposts, while also somehow finding a way to relay that information ahead of any Loroi movements....which, since there are presently no FTL communications, would involve someone having to jump back to warn command....and the Loroi sensors would likely spot someone jumping out. Plus TCA ships can't accelerate all that fast anyway. So while they could go as quickly as a Loroi ship in real space, it would take a lot longer to get the ship up to that speed, and a lot longer to slow down from that speed (light speed being the speed limit).

Earth has very, very few advantages in space combat, and most of them are extremely situational, and only viable at ridiculously close ranges. And while I'd like Earth to be able to field something that can fire a beam weapon out to one light-second range, we just don't have a viable one. (A nice positronic impact shock cannon would do wonder right now. Even in a spinal mount).

Which reminds me. I assume their is a visual idea for the Wave Loom's beam. What's that suppose to look like in use?


Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:22 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
Having a few Loroi immigrants doesn't give you Farseer capability.



You just need to get one with DNA of farseer and then:
Spoiler: show
Image


Or you can get one with male loroi DNA on a salvete and then let things go naturally.
I am talking about 100-200 years after the conflict end anyway (or even more), before that i see no way of TCA preventing loroi from doing anything they want.


Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:33 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
That could turn into a lot of Babylon 5 style Psi Corps nonsense really quickly. "The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father."

Bonus points if the Historians play the Vorlon roll in the equation.


Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:48 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
You guys think humans make good spies? I think we won't be able to go anywhere close to Loroi without causing huge attention. Not to mention that knowing who's around the corner or in the next room is an awesome ability to have while sneaking.
We might be able to become the criminal underclass, if the Loroi tolerate that.

Immigration:


Mon Sep 16, 2019 12:00 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
I think a non-telepathic spy in a telepathic society in which little is spoken or written down would not be a very effective spy, especially when he or she is obviously alien.

Zorg56 wrote:
You just need to get one with DNA of farseer and then:

First of all, psionic abilities are not genetic, so there is no "Farsensing gene." Even if you could get the DNA of a Farseer and clone her -- and I'm not sure how you'd do that, without capturing the Farseer herself -- all you'd get is a Loroi who looks like the Farseer.

Second, even if you somehow smuggled a Farseer out of Loroi territory (which would be harder than you might think), she would be useless without the material and mechanical components of the system. You'd somehow need to steal the whole apparatus, which is not something you can hide under your coat... and when they notice it's been stolen, the Loroi are going to want it back.

Third... well... let's just say that there is a lot that has not yet been revealed about what Farseers really are and how they operate.

Werra wrote:
Immigration:

I'll accept a large part of the responsibility for starting the immigration argument, but if you want to continue a discussion about current events, please move it to another thread.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Werra wrote:
What if Alex gets confronted with a Loroi argument for genetic superiority? Any possible counter arguments you guys can think off?


That's not a good argument to get into. Like, if you lose, then you lose, and if you win, then they're mad at you, and you still lose. You might be able to effectively hold your ground enough to impress them without also offending them? But it would be tricky and require a fairly decent amount of social acumen. I would just try and change the subject, personally. Though, even there you'd need a fair bit of social acumen. Feel really bad for Alex if he has to field that question. :lol:


Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:30 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
That’s a good point. If the Emperor puts it to Alex in front of her ‘court,’ he’d be in a difficult situation. We’ve seen that Alex has a smart-ass side which he can usually but not always reign in.

As a Mizol, she might enjoy some verbal sparring. But the rest of Loroi High Command - who presumably aren’t all Mizol - might not.

On another note, how hard would it be for a human form to manufacture and ship fuel for the Loroi? Given the massive trade off between system transit time and fuel consumption, a quiet refueling stop could be a good strategic offering.

Edit: dang auto correct


Last edited by kiwi on Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.



Mon Sep 16, 2019 10:41 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
kiwi wrote:
That’s a good point. If the Emperor puts it to Alex in front of her ‘court,’ he’d be in a difficult situation. We’ve seen that Alex has a smart-ass side which he can usually but not always reign in.

As a Mizol, she might enjoy some verbal sparring. But the rest of Loroi High Command - who presumably aren’t all Mizold - might not.

On another note, how hard would it be for a human form to manufacture and ship fuel for the Loroi? Given the massive trade off between system transit time and fuel consumption, a quiet refueling stop could be a good strategic offering.


They use antimatter as fuel, don't they? Or some form of exotic matter? That's not gonna be cheap to make. :/


Tue Sep 17, 2019 12:17 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
kiwi wrote:
On another note, how hard would it be for a human form to manufacture and ship fuel for the Loroi? Given the massive trade off between system transit time and fuel consumption, a quiet refueling stop could be a good strategic offering.

They'd need to learn the technology and build the appropriate infrastructure. Although taimat production is not as energy intensive as antimatter production, I have to assume that it will require extensive energy allocation.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Perhaps off topic, but I couldn’t resist...
Gallen: “... I have never seen a Tiamat facility made out of struts and balloons before. What were you thinking?
Engineer: “Well. We were in a hurry. And we thought it would probably explode at some point, so we should make it cheap. So we said ‘screw it, let’s go full Kerbol on it.’”
Gallen: “I’m requesting a transfer back to the raider fleet where it’s safer.”

No, wait, I can shoehorn it back on topic :D. Would a typical Gallen caste Loroi by impressed, bemused or horrified by an improvised bulk Tiamat facility? What might she ‘say’ to her boss?


Tue Sep 17, 2019 9:34 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
kiwi wrote:
No, wait, I can shoehorn it back on topic :D. Would a typical Gallen caste Loroi by impressed, bemused or horrified by an improvised bulk Tiamat facility? What might she ‘say’ to her boss?


What makes you think improvising is not be the usual state of affairs on a raider fleet? :P

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