Terran Ship Classes

[Demarquis]

Something else occurred to me. If humans can be trained to communicate psychically, they could, in theory, serve as crew on Loroi warships, I don't think any other species is able to do that. Not a huge gamechanger, but it might help make up for personnel losses.

[GeoModder]

Something else occurred to me. If humans can be trained to communicate psychically, they could, in theory, serve as crew on Loroi warships, I don't think any other species is able to do that. Not a huge gamechanger, but it might help make up for personnel losses.

Most likely that would stay theory. I reckon Soroin caste members are too focused on their caste priviliges as ship billets were a coveted thing pre-war. In this case, its more likely human personnel would be used in ground roles or support roles.

[discord]

Tamren, Quake me thinks you are missing the point, ofcourse we do not have the facilities to build taimat, we do not know what it is.
But we do have the capacity to build 'stuff' which we could use(with a tech update package) to build such facilities much cheaper for the Loroi than them doing it themselves, and possibly faster given the distances involved.
And no, not implying we could fuel their war on the main front, but we could stock up and therefore fuel a possible NEW front, lessening the logistics cost of such for the Loroi.

Although it seems like we are going to be a refugee haven instead.... still going to need those workhorse ships to move stuff.

[QuakeIV]

It just seems very optimistic to me that that could occur in a timely fashion. If its anything like how fission seemed to go, the first tiny amounts of production might happen fairly quickly, but it would take years if not decades to reach an industrial scaled rate of production.

Getting the process kick started may be as cheap as simply sending over a bunch of technical manuals and so on, so arguably it could basically be free, however it would be a long time before fuel production started happening. It would be a lot faster if they sent experts along. There isn't really an upper limit on how much the loroi could invest to speed the process up. They could go so far as shipping over machinery themselves and then simply training us to put it to use. That might be the only viable way to make that happen in a matter of months or a year, but would presumably be kindof costly.

Its also not clear if that is the main problem for staging a fleet out of human space. In the real world providing harbor services such as utility power and fresh water and so on (not just for the people on board but to keep the machinery going) is rather vital for keeping a fleet in good condition. Ships want to turn off their power plants while at dock. Wearing out the powerplant is a major factor to how much maintenance is required and how long the ships can remain there before going home for their next major overhaul. A drydock that could be used to facilitate repairs would also be very valuable. If we were to extend that metaphor to space, its possible it would be a truly huge task to be of any real help there, as far as making an invasion from our space viable for them goes. It depends on how self sufficient super high tech space warships are compared to real life current day ocean going ships, and how hard it would be to provide those services while at a much lower level of technology.

e: If a destroyer today went to a harbor 100 years ago, it might actually not be that hard. Ships back then would also expect fresh water and power (though they might be a bit perturbed by the amount of power that is desired), so it would mainly be a question of providing the right voltage and manufacturing fittings and so on.

[Demarquis]

@Geomodder: "Most likely that would stay theory. I reckon Soroin caste members are too focused on their caste priviliges as ship billets were a coveted thing pre-war. In this case, its more likely human personnel would be used in ground roles or support roles."

I would think that would depend on loss and replacement rates. If the Loroi are losing right now, that might not be going well.

@QuakeIV: "If a destroyer today went to a harbor 100 years ago, it might actually not be that hard. Ships back then would also expect fresh water and power (though they might be a bit perturbed by the amount of power that is desired), so it would mainly be a question of providing the right voltage and manufacturing fittings and so on."

Hmm. A naval drydock in 1924 might not be deep enough for a modern vessel. They won't be able to refuel. Various supplies will be unavailable or inappropriate (medical supplies for example). Various technical services like specialized repair won't be available either, and of course they will never have heard of digital technology. All in all, I think we could dock there, but it might not be worth it, and it certainly wouldn't do as a major base for an expeditionary force. Nor am I convinced that the local population, with 1920's industrial technology, could build up any useful infrastructure for us within a very short period of time (say, two years). They could perhaps figure out how to recharge our batteries, provide food, maybe repair minor physical damage to a ship, but that's it.

Explosive munitions, nuclear power, digital electronics, modern medicine, it's all beyond them.

The one exception might be providing the logistics tail. Cargo vessels are essentially just hollow hulls with an engine attached. A steam powered tramp could do this almost as well as a modern container ship, if there were enough of them. Extending this comparison to the story, humanity might very well be able to transport supplies from safe depots to the rear area of the invasion zone. That's not nothing, so useful. Useful enough that that factor alone convinces them to open a second front? No, probably not. but if they were inclined to open a second front anyway, the presence of Humanity would likely figure into their calculations of where to stage it.

[QuakeIV]

Hmm. A naval drydock in 1924 might not be deep enough for a modern vessel.

Modern destroyers do not have atypical draft, and aren't dimensionally abornmal. Any drydock that could handle a battlecruiser of the time would have zero issues admitting an arleigh burke (which frankly is one of the fatter and heavier destroyers of today).

They won't be able to refuel.

They actually probably could, although in the (soon to be extended) loroi metaphor thats presumably entirely untrue. They could supply fuel oil which would be of a sufficient octane to run acceptably well. Modern turbines are omnivorous.

Various supplies will be unavailable or inappropriate (medical supplies for example). Various technical services like specialized repair won't be available either, and of course they will never have heard of digital technology.

Thats all true. There is basically no way a major repair could be undertaken by the locals.

All in all, I think we could dock there, but it might not be worth it, and it certainly wouldn't do as a major base for an expeditionary force. Nor am I convinced that the local population, with 1920's industrial technology, could build up any useful infrastructure for us within a very short period of time (say, two years). They could perhaps figure out how to recharge our batteries, provide food, maybe repair minor physical damage to a ship, but that's it.

Explosive munitions, nuclear power, digital electronics, modern medicine, it's all beyond them.

The US don't have locals do that kind of repairs in forward deployments, or make ammunition. In the past local drydocks have been used, but repairs are then conducted by navy personnel. The point would be to allow the ship to limp home.

The main concern as far as harbor service goes is being able to turn off the powerplant and the evaporators, as that is the major active machinery that would be wearing out while sitting doing nothing.

Fresh water could definitely be supplied as that is a normal request for 100 years ago. Electrical power was as well, however if the ship wanted to run its sensors and so on while at harbor that might be a problem, its kindof hard to figure out how much would have been available if someone asked for enough power to run a one megawatt radar array. I would guess certain industrial cities such as coventry probably couldve done so without major issues.

While yes, if a destroyer from today was transported out of time and place it would cease to function, that isn't the question. The question is could a harbor from 100 years ago usefully facilitate a forward deployment in a reasonable time frame, and I think the answer is most likely yes. Its not clear how well that metaphor works for the loroi question, but I think its an interesting and useful comparison.

[Tamren]

Tamren, Quake me thinks you are missing the point

It's not that we can't benefit the Loroi logistically, the point we were trying to make is that that we wouldn't be able to benefit the Loroi in any meaningful time scale before the war ends. At minimum to even establish contact with humanity the loroi would first have to defeat the current umiak offensive, then push the enemy back beyond the steppes before they can make a long ranged expedition to human space. Then they would have to negotiate humanity's entry into the union, then basing rights in human space, then the scope of the tech transfer. Only after that is all done can you even start construction on a logistical support base. All of this is going to take months if not years, starting AFTER the umiak offensive has already been defeated.

More than likely the current offensive will decide the war one way or another. Either the umiak breaks the back of the loroi, or the loroi manage to deflect and counterattack with all of the reserve forces they have been building up. It is highly unlikely that we end up with a second stalemate and that is the only scenario in which humanity can even participate (other than Alex).

[Ithekro]

Assuming the Umiak offensive fails (as so many others have) than an expedition out to Earth space to set up logistics for another front in the next decade or two makes long term sense. The war has already been going on for decades, it might remain going on for decades until a new element gets introduced. Assuming the Loroi counteroffensive in the now doesn't end the war (it shouldn't), that makes Earth a potential partner in the long run. If the story is just Alex providing an outside perspective that wins the war, than Earth means nothing, and will only be a potential ally of the Loroi (or member of the Union) down the road with no involvement in the war aside from Alex's direct actions.

[Bamax]

Assuming the Umiak offensive fails (as so many others have) than an expedition out to Earth space to set up logistics for another front in the next decade or two makes long term sense. The war has already been going on for decades, it might remain going on for decades until a new element gets introduced. Assuming the Loroi counteroffensive in the now doesn't end the war (it shouldn't), that makes Earth a potential partner in the long run. If the story is just Alex providing an outside perspective that wins the war, than Earth means nothing, and will only be a potential ally of the Loroi (or member of the Union) down the road with no involvement in the war aside from Alex's direct actions.

Good point... Outsider may or may not end with the war over. If not, then the only thing Alex and Beryl and company will have achieved is prevented the Loroi for totally losing.

So the sequel or sequels would show the final end of the war.

But that's only a theory
My gut tells me Arioch will resolve the war in Outsider... but I don't actually know.

[Sweforce]

I suppose that tiamat fuel are military fuel for the loroi. I also suppose that this fuel are expensive. As such I suppose there are plenty of vessels among the loroi and their allies that essentially use the same fusion fuel that humanity use. As such refuling loroi freighters should be possible. There is a hint for this depicted at the shuttle our heroes boarded. There are what look like traditional rocket engines on it thou not in use. This could be a backup system for when tiamat fuel is unavailable. Had the fuel tanks for these been filled they would have avoided a lot of problems.

[discord]

sweforce: Probably not that expensive in the Loroi union, but having to transport it quite a few 'jumps' in a quantity to run a small fleet is however going to be annoying and expensive.

quake: 'timely fashion' the war has been going on for 25 friggin years, and as of the launch of bellarmine it showed no sign of actually stopping any time soon.
Oh and I think you were thinking of fusion, not fission, since one of those we have gotten working quite well already.
And you might be underestimating how much actual manuals of working designs could help with that, especially if it shows all the steps to get there aswell.
Yes getting small scale production in one year(lab work proof of concept) and industrial levels in two would be timely indeed, and probably doable, enough to support a new front, probably closer to three or four years.
Munitions would be on a similar timeline, design munitions that can interface with their systems, probably one year, start manufacturing on industrial scale another year, enough to support a new front(stockpile and new production) probably closer to four years, interestingly enough probably mostly limited by the fuel production.
So yeah, within five years seems quite doable.

The reason I stand behind this is that the 'cost' for the Loroi is quite small for a possible war ending gambit, how long it takes is not really relevant as the investment is quite small, also a place to delegate older ship designs for a future action.
Oh, and for a deep raid which this would lead to you need a hefty supply of fuel and munitions to go with the fleet, aka freighters, yes another reason for that workhorse freighter design and to make LOTS of them.

Huh, a actual military ship that Terrans could make and be useful.
PD barge, armoured with plenty of PD systems to take out missile swarms and 'shield' more important ships, escort for freighters for instance.

[QuakeIV]

By timely fashion I mean specifically in time for the recent intensification of hostilities, it seems like some kind of decisive outcome or another is likely, since it seems to be stated superheavies tend to be relegated to defensive duty, implying they are deploying reserves for this. I suppose it could be that they will be repulsed in spite of nullifying the long range sensor advantage, and yet will not take heavy enough casualties for a counteroffensive to be possible.

[discord]

quake: In regards if timely enough? who knows, war is kinda uncertain with the enemy having a say in the matters.
But the bottom line is something like what I proposed would have to happen regardless if this umiak offensive is easily repulsed, costly repulsed, or not repulsed.
The only thing changed is really the amount of time available to affect the changes needed.
And nothing changes the dire and existential need for a mass produced somewhat large freighter previously described.