The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

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Arioch
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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Arioch »

White wrote:
Arioch wrote:They are also not at all warlike. When threatened by the Delrias or Mannadi, in the absence of Loroi protection, they simply gave in to whatever external demands were made on them.
Was this pacifism a situational phenomenon or is it something they adhere to to great extents.

What I mean is, did they concede because the demands, from their point of view, were less costly than a war, or are they just ultimate pacifists that would stand by for their own genocide Pamelite (animorph pacifist aliens which did exactly that) style?
They're not pacifists in the sense that they refuse to fight under any circumstances, but they have very little interest in fighting. They lack physical strength and have fragile bodies; their natural response to danger is to flee and find shelter. Violence is almost unknown between Pipolsid individuals; it simply would not occur to them. They gave in to aggressors' demands early in their history because they had no military to speak of, and since the Loroi have taken out all these threats, the Pipolsid were only too happy to go back to not having to think about it. If they were suddenly and inexplicably attacked, and there were no friendly forces at hand to defend them, they would most likely surrender at the first sign of hostilities.
White wrote:Also, as to the case of Pipolsid tech development, it does sound slow, but that slowness seems to be caused more by their aquatic environment than a lack of ingenuity. Would you say they've sped up since they can now work on land with high technology? Or perhaps are they just not good at land based tech, much like many of the other races would still not have great underwater manufacturing capabilities?
The Pipolsid are very good at what interests them. Their drive tech is second to none in the Union. However, they have no interest in weapons tech. Whether they are fast or slow in technological advancement depends on who you compare them to and what subjects you have in mind. If you're expecting them to race ahead of the rest of the Union and become a danger to other races in the Local Bubble, I don't think that's going to happen.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Mr.Tucker »

boldilocks wrote:Would you prefer racially homogenous? They are a people of a common genetic ancestry of a relatively small people in a limited geographical area. And I can assure you there is a swiss people.
I think we need a definition of the word "ethnicity" and "people".
An ethnicity is a bunch of persons with a common race and language. A people or "nation" is an ethnicity that shares a common culture. Europeans divide along language (ethnic) lines rather than racial lines (which is more common in the US). Asia is it's own, extremely complicated thing....
boldilocks wrote:Carving california up into ethnically discrete blocks would probably improve conditions a great deal, especially if you could ensure a complete disconnect between rural and city politics. (Ie, ensured that one couldn't affect the others, with water rights belonging to the closest polity to the source of water, effectively giving rural areas control over the water supplies.)
I agree. The politics of it would be really complicated though....
Werra wrote:If there wasn't a Swiss people, the country would divide itself between Germany, France, Italy and Austria. Something seems to bind the Bergsepps, even if its only stubborn refusal to be anything else.
Culture and history is what binds them. But that is not enough to make a "people". What it does make is a nationality.
Werra wrote:The Swiss model would never work in Germany for example, because Germanies geography forces it to expand.
How so?
boldilocks wrote:Oh I don't agree with that at all. American cities have grown increasingly bold in their arrogance, and I've noted the same problem locally in my own country.
It's where we are in the tech tree. It's a cycle. Look at history: the first cities sprung up in the wake of the Chalcolithic, in the various cradles of civilization (India, Mesopotamia, etc) and developed into hydraulic states that build the first kingdoms on the backs of bronze and chariots. They ruled the world for nearly 3000 years, before collapsing in the Bronze Age Collapse, due to the popularization of iron tools and weaponry (which is far more readily available), leading to a 1000 year period where they became insignificant and rural lives were prevalent. Then the Classical ancient city-states rose up and once again power was vested in the cities, who now had the ability to build empires due to advancement in technology. These city states once again collaped as the introduction of steel and horsemanship lead to them becoming prime targets. They stayed down for the rest of most modern history, before once again being on the upswing today. It's a pattern that gets reproduced anywhere there is technological advancement (though with different flavors; the Americas never really progressed beyond the Neolithic, but rather developed that specific strain of technology to a high level).
Modern technology and economics relies, above all else, on human capital, and cities, by their very nature offer that in spades. Technology has advanced to the point where they can also be self-sufficient (large scale desalination, solar, wind and nuclear, vertical farming, in-vitro meat, and other such technologies; cities are affluent enough to build those) to a larger extent. Human are gregarious, and modern communications and transport have made them even more-so. It's where our path takes us (and it'll be even more prevalent in space; rural communities are impossible in space per se). We can protest, but that didn't help Rome or the Chinese Principalities, did it?...
The upshot is that urban centered periods tended to be quite good development periods (some rural centered ones were as well, but to a lesser extent).

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Mr.Tucker »

And to not wear too much from the topic at hand: power is vey relative, just like in real life. The Swiss, for instance, are terribly difficult to invade, but you can't say they are more "powerful" than say Russia or France.
So it's a matter of:
1) power projection
2) technology
3) numbers
Power projection is pretty much a prerequisite of any starfaring civilization, though some might find it easier than others. Overall I'd say the most powerful are the Umiak. They have numbers for days, massive industrial capacity and willingness for hardships, and very advanced technologies in most fields (more than the Loroi; they were using plasma from the get-go).They could mop the floor with basically anyone except maybe the Historians (depending on what they can REALLY do if bothered).
The caveat is that the Loroi cheat: they ability for superluminal detection, TK and telepathy is impossible to reproduce by technology (maybe you can with telepathy, but radio is just a poor substitute) or to counter by technology. That's why they're still in the game. It they didn't have the above, they'd probably be where the Mannadi are (and, conversely, they struggle quite bit when their opponents have less susceptibility to their mental abilities).

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Mr.Tucker »

Arioch wrote:The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.
Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

Mr.Tucker wrote:I think we need a definition of the word "ethnicity" and "people".
An ethnicity is a bunch of persons with a common race and language. A people or "nation" is an ethnicity that shares a common culture. Europeans divide along language (ethnic) lines rather than racial lines (which is more common in the US).
It's actually been very much along a sort of pseudo-racial line as well. If you look at a wide enough variety of gene markers you can group European genetic groups by country with a very high degree of accuracy. And of course with increased immigration the more obvious racial lines are becoming increasingly stark with each generation.
Mr.Tucker wrote:I agree. The politics of it would be really complicated though....
True, it would be akin to multiple secessions happening at once at the state level.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Arioch wrote:The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.
Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?
They're half-shelled heroes, as chapter 3 is going to expand upon, when we meet a team of teenage Pipolsids who've just been through a horrific industrial accident.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Werra »

Mr.Tucker wrote:Culture and history is what binds them. But that is not enough to make a "people". What it does make is a nationality.
The separation between culture and people is faulty, since genes make their own environment. There have been Swiss people before Switzerland was a thing. Just because European ancestries are so closely related they're blurry does not erase the individual ancestry.
Mr.Tucker wrote:
Werra wrote:The Swiss model would never work in Germany for example, because Germanies geography forces it to expand.
How so?
Germany is on the central european plain and has France to the west and Poland to the east. There are very little geographical barriers between these nations. So it's in Germanys natural interest to be stronger than each of them individually. This oftentimes translates into domination of surrounding countries. If Germany were still running a population surplus, it would be exporting it's people into the EU. A natural expansion of Germany -as understood as where German is spoken- thus inevitable.
Mr Tucker wrote: It's where we are in the tech tree. It's a cycle. Look at history: the first cities sprung up in the wake of the Chalcolithic, in the various cradles of civilization (India, Mesopotamia, etc) and developed into hydraulic states that build the first kingdoms on the backs of bronze and chariots. They ruled the world for nearly 3000 years, before collapsing in the Bronze Age Collapse, due to the popularization of iron tools and weaponry (which is far more readily available), leading to a 1000 year period where they became insignificant and rural lives were prevalent. Then the Classical ancient city-states rose up and once again power was vested in the cities, who now had the ability to build empires due to advancement in technology. These city states once again collaped as the introduction of steel and horsemanship lead to them becoming prime targets. They stayed down for the rest of most modern history, before once again being on the upswing today. It's a pattern that gets reproduced anywhere there is technological advancement (though with different flavors; the Americas never really progressed beyond the Neolithic, but rather developed that specific strain of technology to a high level).
You should read "Against the Grain" by James Scott. History only looks that way because nomadic people had no need to keep records, thus once an agrarian state fell, it left a dark age, which oftentimes was a prosperous age for the people.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by GeoModder »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Arioch wrote:The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.
Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?
I think Arioch meant domestic shelters (artifical cave/reef structure) rather then a sort of protective layer over the Pipolsid' natural body.
Arioch wrote:
nweismuller wrote:The Union race I'm actually interested in learning more about is the Neridi, as well as being curious to learn a little more about their constitutional monarchy.
I have an essay on the Neridi in the works, but that will take some more time to finish.
:mrgreen:
Last edited by GeoModder on Wed May 29, 2019 4:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Arioch »

Mr.Tucker wrote:
Arioch wrote:The Pipolsid evolved to be able to fabricate sophisticated structures from chemical compounds secreted by their own bodies, which were necessary to protect their fragile bodies from predators.
Wait...are the Pipolsid shelled, and use natural adhesives to form protective layers? Or are they slimy like hagfish?
They're soft-bodied. The structures they form are external to their bodies, like wasps' nests.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by SVlad »

Werra wrote:I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.
Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?
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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Zorg56 »

SVlad wrote:
Werra wrote:I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.
Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?
there is quite a few, including germany, finland and israel.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Werra »

SVlad wrote:
Werra wrote:I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.
Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?
As far as I know Russia did very well under Putin. Just imagine him continuing for three more centuries. Or some heavy hitter from history like Temudschin.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

Werra wrote:
SVlad wrote:
Werra wrote:I wonder what would be more stable and succesful, a democracy in which high technology is used to assist the voting process or monarchy in which somebody lile Friedrich the Great or Kathrine the same can live indefinitely due to technology.
Here is the list of countries, where the same president rules for decades. Do you see many advanced economies there?
As far as I know Russia did very well under Putin. Just imagine him continuing for three more centuries. Or some heavy hitter from history like Temudschin.
The entrenched corrupt powers that were holdovers of the bolshevik party leadership still exist, and as I'm aware of he hasn't been fully able to contend with them, but then I don't think anyone (or any form of government) could.
Iran is actually also doing pretty well, when you consider the powers they're up against. (Ie, effectively being blockaded by the western nations.)
Also Syria has been comparatively well off under Assad, until the recent ISIS insurrection. Of course, those were also externally imposed on the country by the western nations.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by SVlad »

Werra wrote: As far as I know Russia did very well under Putin. Just imagine him continuing for three more centuries. Or some heavy hitter from history like Temudschin.
Doesn't look so good from inside. And it's much more about oil cost than about Putin.
SpoilerShow
"Oil cost - GDP correlation"
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Then again, we have around 10 of 48 countries where long rule was good. And in other 38 - was not.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Arioch »

That's the best graph ever.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Krulle »

Yeah, I remember that oil makes about 20% of Russian economy directly. (old stat, higher oilprices usually also translate tohigher percentages....)
Any dollar down in barrel price hits directly, as the remaining industry and services are relying on oil-industry employees spending their income.
Indirect effects taken into account, the oil industry is (far) more than half of the Russian economy.
[edit]went to duckduckgo and searched a bit for sources:
https://www.investopedia.com/ask/answer ... conomy.asp 30% of GDP is oil and gas (2014)
https://carnegie.ru/commentary/61272 : <26.5%, article from 2014, therefore numbers from before that; but then calculates other major effects (state expenditure paid by oil/gas extraction and export taxes, effect of oil export to pay for import), and gets to 57% of GDP. Also three graphs showing dependency of Russias GDP, gold reserves, and federal budget from oil price.
I'm not ashamed of my previous somewhat-out-of-my-ass numbers...
[/edit]
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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by boldilocks »

Krulle wrote:Yeah, I remember that oil makes about 20% of Russian economy directly. (old stat, higher oilprices usually also translate tohigher percentages....)
Any dollar down in barrel price hits directly, as the remaining industry and services are relying on oil-industry employees spending their income.
Indirect effects taken into account, the oil industry is more than half or the Russian economy.
Is that why they're pushing into gas? As I recall they're mostly raw natural resources. I think putin himself described russia as effectively a third world economy.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Zorg56 »

Russian industry currently almsot non exist outside oil production and processing.
And even in those spheres we rely more and more on outside mechanisms.
Even in weapon production most of fire control systems produced either in belarus or in france.
More then 200 cities and vilalges were abandoned since 2010 and mroe then 1500 since 1991.
And more will come because many of cities in russia builded around one giant factory, that live it last days now.

Any other goverment will be better, this country will die very soon, in one large nuclear explousion.

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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Krulle »

boldilocks wrote:
Krulle wrote:Yeah, I remember that oil makes about 20% of Russian economy directly. (old stat, higher oilprices usually also translate tohigher percentages....)
Any dollar down in barrel price hits directly, as the remaining industry and services are relying on oil-industry employees spending their income.
Indirect effects taken into account, the oil industry is more than half or the Russian economy.
Is that why they're pushing into gas? As I recall they're mostly raw natural resources. I think putin himself described russia as effectively a third world economy.
They're pushing gas, because European green parties think that CO2 from gas is less bad for the environment than CO2 from oil.....
Also, European economies started reducing their dependencies on oil, and simply need more gas.
We heat less with oil, and more with gas.
Production uses less oil now.
Electricity nearly uses no more oil, but more gas instead due to photovoltaic and wind energy fluctuating too fast for coal and oil power stations, but gas stations can react fast enough.

So, all in all, central and western European economies need less oil, and more gas.
Father Russia provides, despite us having gone to buy elsewhere, like Iran. (to implement US led sanctions, which now backfires on us Europeans again, as the US made a somewhat surprising turn and sanctions those who buy Iranian oil)
Thankfully Father Russia is only moderatly resentful, and provides us with the fossile energy we so need.
In return we provide them with foreign currencies they so urgently need.

We've become addicts, addicted on each other.


Let's make a EURu Federation!
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Re: The Most Powerful Known Race In The Local Bubble.

Post by Werra »

Krulle wrote:So, all in all, central and western European economies need less oil, and more gas.
Father Russia provides, despite us having gone to buy elsewhere, like Iran. (to implement US led sanctions, which now backfires on us Europeans again, as the US made a somewhat surprising turn and sanctions those who buy Iranian oil)
Thankfully Father Russia is only moderatly resentful, and provides us with the fossile energy we so need.
In return we provide them with foreign currencies they so urgently need.

We've become addicts, addicted on each other.


Let's make a EURu Federation!
I don't think our politicians are as inept as they appear to be. They have to know that going for renewable energy and Russian gas makes our country less dependent on imports. Curiously, those plans finalise when a militarisation of Europe, including Germany is being implemented. It's been US doctrine for a long time now to keep Europe and Russia separate from each other. Looks like the US grip on the continent is slipping just as the US makes serious motions to return to isolation again. I wonder when the era of the aircraft carrier ends and what will do it.

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