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Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
https://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2316
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Author:  Krulle [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:13 am ]
Post subject:  Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider129.html

So, the Loroi do know about Deep Jumping.


Shall we assume those are Historians, coming to the rescue? (one may hope!)

solon n tick, heartbeat (a time of 1.092 seconds)
480 light-solon therefore make 524.16 light-seconds; 8.736 light-minutes.
About the distance between Sun and Earth. (499 light-seconds; 8,3 light-minutes) [1]

Author:  cacambo43 [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:16 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Krulle wrote:
Shall we assume those are Historians, coming to the rescue? (one may hope!)


Eh? Am I missing a panel?


CJSF

Author:  Krulle [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:21 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Pretty surely not.
But all we have right now is a "Jump signal", no identification yet.


Either way, it is bad, sicne the jump signal appeared behind the defences.

Author:  Victor_D [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Well, now would be the time to ask the Stray if the surrender offer still stands ;)

I'd assume deep jumping into a white dwarf system is even more dangerous than an "ordinary" deep jump, given that the stellar remnant's gravity well is going to be much steeper (smaller room for error). I wonder how many Umiak ships will end up materialising inside the white dwarf. Not that the Umiak would care about such losses if they're confident of victory.

Author:  sunphoenix [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Yeah... I am more and more convinced the Umiak are simply using drone automated warships.. lead by only a handful of Umiak on fire direction command ships. So yeah... the Loroi can detect the approach of massive numbers of living minds in a upcomming assault but if the Umiak are just using very sophisticated computer controlled drones controlled by only a handfull of living Umiak on a few key ships... there are only like 6 or so living Umiak in a division sized assault force...no way the Loroi Farseekers can detect so few minds in a vast volume of space!

Author:  novius [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:56 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Organic refuse is definitely coming into contact with the ventilation device...

First, what seemed to be quite a decent margin for their getaway melted down to "they got uncomfortably close".

Second, now it really looks like that taking a strategic nexus was their main objective, rather than hunting down this shuttle.

And while Umiak don't care about individuals, they surely aren't throwing away assets needlessly.

So yes, as I said, it seems very much so that they are intent on getting their pincers on whoever or whatever got away from Naam. At any cost.

On another note, Beryl had enough time to straighten herself up by now, even if the shuttle is burning at full thrust, or getting herself another seat - she does look quite comfortable in her current position now, despite the grim situation :)

Author:  novius [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:00 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Krulle wrote:
Pretty surely not.
But all we have right now is a "Jump signal", no identification yet.

Either way, it is bad, sicne the jump signal appeared behind the defences.


I gather that enemy forces don't announce themselves as such, and so every vessel jumping in and not identifying itself correctly in a given amount of time, based on transmission delays, is assumed to be hostile, in addition to other means of identification (emission signatures, profiles, whatever you may think of)

Author:  sunphoenix [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:27 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

novius wrote:
On another note, Beryl had enough time to straighten herself up by now, even if the shuttle is burning at full thrust, or getting herself another seat - she does look quite comfortable in her current position now, despite the grim situation :)


May have something to do with being held by her attractive..clearly intelligent human heat-rock.. is enough to get her aroused enough to enjoy her fortuitous current masculine seat! :lol:

Author:  Arent [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:11 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Sounds as if the Umiak have gained access to some kind of long range jump system. Maybe they have only been granted a limited amount (Historians?) or it's too dangerous to use it. Maybe they sacrificed half their fleet using it.

Author:  Krulle [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:14 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

novius wrote:
Krulle wrote:
Pretty surely not.
But all we have right now is a "Jump signal", no identification yet.

Either way, it is bad, sicne the jump signal appeared behind the defences.


I gather that enemy forces don't announce themselves as such, and so every vessel jumping in and not identifying itself correctly in a given amount of time, based on transmission delays, is assumed to be hostile, in addition to other means of identification (emission signatures, profiles, whatever you may think of)

page 124: identification takes time. Whether friend or foe.

And seeing the colours used on page 129, I assume red is unidentified, and yellow stands for (confirmed) hostile/enemy. Green for friendly/ours, white being "your" ship and larger stations/depots/fortresses, blue may be civilian/non-fighting, orange are buoys (also non-active in a fight).

Orange and red seem to be close together, while one is friendly, the other is unidentified....
I would have fears that the colours would get mixed up.
But then, the Loroi as genetecally engineered species may well be able to see far larger nuances than my baseline Human eye.

Author:  cacambo43 [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

"New enemy forces..." sort of implies that they have identified them as Umiak though, doesn't it?

CJSF

Author:  cacambo43 [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:44 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

novius wrote:
On another note, Beryl had enough time to straighten herself up by now, even if the shuttle is burning at full thrust, or getting herself another seat - she does look quite comfortable in her current position now, despite the grim situation :)


I think it's literally been seconds in "real time".. or, solons, excuse me. LOL

CJSF

Author:  Jericho [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:28 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

This monday just got a lot better!

Arioch are the green lights eminating from the yellow ships on the radar supposed to be beam weapons firing?

Author:  Arioch [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:57 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Jericho wrote:
Arioch are the green lights eminating from the yellow ships on the radar supposed to be beam weapons firing?

No, those are projected courses.

Author:  entity2636 [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 12:39 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Oh that was an unexpected pleasant surprise coming home and finding a new page (go Arioch!) and a discussion already on!

Beryl's quite the "Lieutenant Obvious" but I second Talon, that is indeed the million talent question right now, how the truckload of umiaks got past all the checkpoints. Not surprised that the pilots know about deep jumping, I suppose everyone who knows about hyperspace is familiar with deep and short jumping and the dangers involved. Maybe the umiaks have obtained better star charts and/or have developed new navigational software that allows them to safely deep jump or perhaps even double-jump (skip systems) - I gather that most stars around Leido are red dwarfs with weak gravity while Leido is a white dwarf (strong gravity). Maybe it's not outside the realm of the possible to jump over a red dwarf system if you have accurate charts and very good NavCom?

By the way, wonder what is Tempo up to while all of this is going on next door? Blissfully asleep or listening to everything telepathically? The way and tempo (pun intended) in which the situation is developing should be of interest to her...

Author:  icekatze [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

hi hi

sunphoenix wrote:
...no way the Loroi Farseekers can detect so few minds in a vast volume of space!

Arioch wrote:
Farseers can detect a single Umiak mind, if it's the only mind in a star system. What they would have trouble with is distinguishing it amongst other minds nearby.


Perhaps the Umiak got past the checkpoints by using deep jump tactics. But I'm not sure that they would be able to intercept a courier with just a deep jump. It is still at least 2 AU from jump point to courier location, probably more, and they're not necessarily jumping in on the correct vector. Will we find out that they have a new interceptor force that can close that kind of distance in time? Maybe some extra long range torpedoes?

I think it is a safe bet that Alex's observation about the diversionary tactics is important. I'm just not sure how yet. :P

Using diversionary tactics might just be a good idea regardless, since the Umiak don't necessarily know the size of the Loroi reserves. But if it were a totally obvious reason like that, then he probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Perhaps they are building a farseer hidden base(s) is the steppes and needed to keep the Loroi from stumbling across it by accident?

Author:  Krulle [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:08 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

I think it is the first step in Alexander showing his tactical prowess, and his future use in the Loroi/Umiak war.

Author:  SVlad [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:06 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

I really don't catch why Jarden thinks it is a diversion. For me it looked like full front assault two pages ago.

Author:  icekatze [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:22 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

hi hi

Where does Alex say he thinks this is a diversion? It clearly isn't. All of the other attacks on the other hand, like the diversion in Naam, are a different story.

Author:  SVlad [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Uhm, there:
Quote:
Maybe, but something doesn't add up. Why the diversionary attacks? If they have some kind of jammers, why not equip all of their ships with them?

Author:  icekatze [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:53 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

hi hi

I really don't think Alex is talking about the eight divisions currently present in the system. Rather the clearly stated diversionary attacks that happened elsewhere, that kept strike groups tied up for days prior, like in Naam.

Author:  man_of_foul_tofu [ Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:13 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

So pleased to see a new page and this page just drips with anticipation and excitement. Very very pleased.

I used to play an online game, similar to Masters of Orion - it dealt very superficially with the arrival and departure of fleets in starspanning battles - this looks like the excitement of those games, with technical details of getting in and out of systems kind fleshed out.

I dread to see a number of pages blocking up the plot unfolding showing wave after wave of ships, but I also would be really excited to see the plot unfolding with wave after wave of ships attacking and meleeing.

Like others, I don't quite get the tactical implications of this last incursion. But I am prepared to think and wait on it.

Author:  orion1836 [ Tue May 01, 2018 8:05 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

From the Insider, a deep jump is a very risky move. I find it interesting that the Umiak knew ahead of time that such a jump would be needed to cut off redeployment of Loroi forces *inside* the system. Either:

a) the move was pre-planned based on a guess as to the position of Loroi forces from their movements prior to entering the system (which the Umiak could roughly plot based on prior engagements).

b) the move was pre-planned based on direct intel of Loroi positions in-system prior to the initial jump (a scary prospect).

c) the move was ordered on the fly based on reports from the lead echelons of the Umiak forces (a scarier prospect, requiring a ship to either to jump out very quickly after arrival, or requiring the Umiak to have found a way to communicate between systems without jumping).

Then again, a pincer-like deep jump could be a common tactic for the "we have reserves" -oriented Umiak when on the offensive. If you don't care how many ships you lose, sacrificing some to get *any* force into a flanking or rear position would be worth it for the maneuver advantage.

One thing I really like about this comic is the obviously deep level of thought Arioch put into the tactics of large-scale space warfare. A lot of sci-fi either hand-waves it or gets it laughably wrong (e.g. Star Trek having ships with non-warp engines capable of 0.5c engage each other within visual range). The science may definitely be fiction here, but at least the rules are consistently applied.

Author:  icekatze [ Tue May 01, 2018 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

hi hi

Although I suspect the reason for the deep jump will become clear in the next few pages, I wonder if this is their new standard operating procedure for eliminating the early warning checkpoints. Perhaps they've been sending a deep jump group in for the last several jumps, just to be sure.

I think we know from forum posts and the insider that the Umiak used to hold this region of space, early on in the war. So they probably have detailed star charts, at least for this region. Perhaps one of their tricks is a new way of more accurately calculating jumps?

It is possible that the Umiak have developed their own farseers, but I don't think that would give them the positions in system of various fleets, unless they have a much different type of farseeing device than the Loroi have.

My best guess at present is that (a) is the most likely. The Loroi have been using the same farseer based defense strategy for ages, so the Umiak are probably very familiar with how they move ships around.

Author:  SVlad [ Tue May 01, 2018 9:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump

Umiaks somehow path through outposts. The only way to do it is to destroy courier vessels before they jump. So they had to do deep jumps during this offence.
Also they must not destroy the outpost station itself, so farseers wouldn't detect the vanish of station crew.

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