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Page 129: ¨Deep Jump 
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
I was going to support the "double-jump" idea -- where they've figured out how to skip over starsystems on a particular hyperspace path, possibly by literally "skipping" (or "doinking" as per the FTL tech page) -- but I just noticed something that supports the "automated ships" theory.

The Umiak are basing their "deep jump" strategy off of being able to quickly assault forces within a system. This can include what they did to prevent the outposts from sending word of an incursion, but definitely includes their current strategy of deep-jumping a large force close to the star.

What makes that particularly impressive is, as the FTL tech page notes, Umiak issues with jump sickness make them generally ineffective for up to an hour after a jump.

They *could* just be risking greater casualties in exchange for better odds at preventing the message from getting out(because they can certainly afford that), but if they can now "ignore" their issues with grogginess post-jump (such as by using heavily automated ships), this action suddenly makes better tactical sense. And could be extremely effective.

...And now I'm really wondering if any Farseers in the Loroi fleet can detect these ships. If they can't, or can only barely detect them, that would be another good reason for the Umiak to want to prevent the word getting out.

And just to go off on a wild crazy idea -- one way the Umiak could "automate" their ships would be via enslaved Historian AIs. I bet that would be a fun little problem.


Tue May 01, 2018 9:21 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
Gorbash wrote:
And just to go off on a wild crazy idea -- one way the Umiak could "automate" their ships would be via enslaved Historian AIs. I bet that would be a fun little problem.


..or NOT enslaved, which is a different fun little problem!

CJSF


Tue May 01, 2018 9:43 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
Of course, a bigger concern (that has been touched upon by us arm-chair web-comic authors) is what if a Scout Corp ship made Umiak contact much earlier than Bellarmine's encounter, and a decision to ally with them has been made and the Umiak found out how to leverage humans to block the Farseers? That would make Alex a true Outsider, even from his own people!

CJSF


Tue May 01, 2018 9:54 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
Heavily automated ships not necessarily, let's consider this for a moment:

We see the umiak force of 8 divisions jump into Leido and, within what appears to be minutes, split into four task forces and begin motoring towards the 4 exit vectors from Leido. Then, after some more minutes, a 5th task force jumps deep into the system.

So far I do not see anything that an autopilot couldn't do on it's own while the umiak crews recover from jump sickness. It will take them at least an hour, maybe more, to make contact with SG51 and even longer for the other groups to reach their respective jump zones. I don't recall this being mentioned, so - do only Umiak serve in the Hierarchy's Navy, or other client races do aswell? If we don't like the autopilot idea so much, we could consider that the ships in question are at least piloted by non-Umiak pilots. Said pilots being humans - implausible due to how much time has passed in-universe since the First Contact mission began (three months tops, it took the Bellarmine two months to reach Naam).

The group that deep-jumped into Leido (to ~1AU from the star) is probably meant to surround SG51, known to be docked at Leido-Sala outpost, not to prevent couriers from jumping deeper into Union space. The loroi have a courier outpost at the Gora jump zone and the Tizaba Depot at the Enedd jump zone, so unless someone is not paying attention, word of the invasion has already spread. How much intel Stillstorm forwarded remains to be seen. You can jump short, you can jump deep, you can also over-jump/skip a system (successfully or not we do not officially know yet), but you can't jump into a system past the star on your vector - you'll materialize inside the star or enter Negative Hyperspace (Subspace?).


Tue May 01, 2018 10:44 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
Well its off to Custer's last stand for these ladies!


Tue May 01, 2018 4:26 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
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The group that deep-jumped into Leido (to ~1AU from the star) is probably meant to surround SG51


How could they have know that, I wonder...

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Thu May 03, 2018 10:47 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
@Suederwind - it's kind of obvious, since a) SG51 disengaged Kikitik-27's fleet at Naam and retreated, Kikitik has been following them one jump behind. He knows how Stillstorm thinks, they have fought a few times already. To be honest, I think Stillstorm in typical Loroi arrogance seriously underestimates Kikitik and the Umiaks in general. b) the Steppes systems have changed hands multiple times and both sides have carried out raids into the Steppes and few systems past, so it is, at least in my mind, safe to say, that the Umiak know at least roughly where the Loroi have their bases and which systems are strategically important or make sense to have bases in. c) Kikitik's fleet isn't the only one in the Steppes at the moment and, seeing what's going on, I'm getting the impression that the fleets are communicating with each other.

Also, such deep jumping doesn't help the Umiaks in intercepting any Union couriers at other jump vectors since these vectors are opposite the star and you can't jump into a system over a star. With the information available, logic dictates, that this maneuver is intended to surround any enemy forces present in Leido. One could stretch it a little and say, that this second fleet is meant to intercept Ashrain's squadron on their way to Enedd, but that would require the Umiak reserves, presumably at Rallis, to have real time intel on Loroi fleet movements in Leido, which, as far as we know, is technically impossible. Impossible unless they have farseers of their own....


Thu May 03, 2018 3:30 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
hi hi

entity2636 wrote:
...it's kind of obvious...
I don't think that analysis is accurate, unless the Umiak possess a technology that we, as an audience, don't know about.

Clicky-27 may have followed Stillstorm, but they're still a ways behind and engaged with the Loroi defenses in Sala 101. The deep jumping forces came from the Rallis vector, not the Sala 101 vector. Even if Clicky-27 could have sent information to the Rallis system, which doesn't seem likely since any courier would have needed to advance three systems in the time it took Strike Group 51 to advance one, they would have no way of knowing that Stillstorm was stopping in Leido rather than going to Azimol or even Enedd or Sala 128, since the last branching point comes before that jump.

Edit: Personally, I don't think Stillstorm is going to fall back. I think she might even try to follow the main force through the Enedd jump and attempt her own version of the Battle of the Tasinei Ways.

(Also, I'm not sure what kind of supplies the Umiak have on hand, but I wonder if it would be tactically sound to send the strike group through the Rallis jump and try to hunt down the main force's supply line.)


Thu May 03, 2018 5:33 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
My analysis may not be accurate, but it's the explanation that makes most sense to me. I don't see a tactical benefit of the deep jumping group other than surrounding Loroi forces at the Leido-Sala post. They are only overtaking their main invasion force on the vector from Rallis and they can't intercept any couriers at the Enedd and Gora jump zones. That's why I said that I'm getting the impression the Umiak forces are actively communicating between each other, or are being fed up to date intel from somewhere else.

As for Stillstorm's battle plan, I think she wants to 1) keep the Enedd jump zone clear for as long as possible or hinder the main Umiak force from jumping to Enedd, thus securing a retreat path for SG51 and SG20 and 2) prevent the Umiak squadron headed towards the Sala jump zone from jumping into Sala-101 and surrounding SG20, thus securing a retreat path for SG20. SG20 can escape from Sala-101 only towards Leido, because Sala-128 is already crawling with Umiaks, and the other path (towards a star named "Z") leads to Obd and Rallis and into the Wastelands.

Seriously, she has 20-odd ships at her disposal against 8 divisions plus the ones just arriving, so it's suicide trying to fight them. I think it would be a mistake if she were to connect with SG20, assuming they make it out of Sala-101, and jump into Rallis to go after Umiak supply lines, she'd a) lead ships away from Enedd that could instead be used to reinforce the base's defenses and b) possibly jump blindly into more Umiak forces, get surrounded and annihilated.

*edit* I'm perhaps overly careful, but I prefer to not pick fights I'm not 110% sure I'll win


Fri May 04, 2018 3:48 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
hi hi

I suspect that if the Umiak wanted, they could wipe out Strike Group 51 with a massive torpedo launch. If one division launching torpedoes pushed their point defense, then eight divisions launching torpedoes might overwhelm them. I doubt that the Umiak want to waste munitions like that, when there are much bigger targets yet to come, though.


Fri May 04, 2018 7:34 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

I suspect that if the Umiak wanted, they could wipe out Strike Group 51 with a massive torpedo launch. If one division launching torpedoes pushed their point defense, then eight divisions launching torpedoes might overwhelm them. I doubt that the Umiak want to waste munitions like that, when there are much bigger targets yet to come, though.


Could still happen though. They're still not within firing range.

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Fri May 04, 2018 11:29 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
entity2636 wrote:
By the way, wonder what is Tempo up to while all of this is going on next door? Blissfully asleep or listening to everything telepathically? The way and tempo (pun intended) in which the situation is developing should be of interest to her...
A thought that occurs to me is that Loroi FTL comms don't work by a Farseer sending a message, but instead by a Farseer receiving a message from a properly trained Mizol, because they are capable of targeting a recipient more accurately than most Loroi.


icekatze wrote:
Perhaps the Umiak got past the checkpoints by using deep jump tactics. But I'm not sure that they would be able to intercept a courier with just a deep jump. It is still at least 2 AU from jump point to courier location, probably more, and they're not necessarily jumping in on the correct vector. Will we find out that they have a new interceptor force that can close that kind of distance in time? Maybe some extra long range torpedoes?

I think it is a safe bet that Alex's observation about the diversionary tactics is important. I'm just not sure how yet. :P

Using diversionary tactics might just be a good idea regardless, since the Umiak don't necessarily know the size of the Loroi reserves. But if it were a totally obvious reason like that, then he probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Perhaps they are building a farseer hidden base(s) is the steppes and needed to keep the Loroi from stumbling across it by accident?
My first thought on seeing that was that the larger force was carrying some sort of gravity projectors to forcibly "shape" the jump-zone to improve it's landing characteristics, and more such jumps will be made, each closer to the exit-zones, allowing them to cut-off couriers before they even have a chance to leave their stations.

In some ways, that would be scarier than Farseer blocking.


Sat May 05, 2018 10:59 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
hi hi

Absalom wrote:
A thought that occurs to me is that Loroi FTL comms don't work by a Farseer sending a message, but instead by a Farseer receiving a message from a properly trained Mizol, because they are capable of targeting a recipient more accurately than most Loroi.
That would be a surprise twist, everyone onboard the highland seven suddenly becomes as telepathically deaf as Alex is, because Tempo burned out their telepathy with an overpowered shout.


Sun May 06, 2018 3:05 am
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
Absalom wrote:
icekatze wrote:
I think it is a safe bet that Alex's observation about the diversionary tactics is important. I'm just not sure how yet. :P

Using diversionary tactics might just be a good idea regardless, since the Umiak don't necessarily know the size of the Loroi reserves. But if it were a totally obvious reason like that, then he probably wouldn't have mentioned it. Perhaps they are building a farseer hidden base(s) is the steppes and needed to keep the Loroi from stumbling across it by accident?
My first thought on seeing that was that the larger force was carrying some sort of gravity projectors to forcibly "shape" the jump-zone to improve it's landing characteristics, and more such jumps will be made, each closer to the exit-zones, allowing them to cut-off couriers before they even have a chance to leave their stations.

In some ways, that would be scarier than Farseer blocking.

And would require to notably increase the mass of the target star by a measurable amount.
Which would require dismantling several jupiters to get the mass necessary to build starships....
IF gravforce projectors were a technology working in Outsiderverse while not actually increasing the solar system mass, it would have to interact with hyperspace, despite realspace/truespace and hyperspace not interacting...

edit: sorry, due to toothache not in a mood to rephrase and sound more understandable.
Hope you cans till make sense of my ramblings...

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Sun May 06, 2018 1:44 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
Bit late, but here goes.

icekatze wrote:
hi hi

Absalom wrote:
A thought that occurs to me is that Loroi FTL comms don't work by a Farseer sending a message, but instead by a Farseer receiving a message from a properly trained Mizol, because they are capable of targeting a recipient more accurately than most Loroi.
That would be a surprise twist, everyone onboard the highland seven suddenly becomes as telepathically deaf as Alex is, because Tempo burned out their telepathy with an overpowered shout.
Huh? No, I believe that Arioch originally said that, apparently it involves accuracy to replace strength, I was just responding to a question of what Tempo might be doing.


Krulle wrote:
Absalom wrote:
My first thought on seeing that was that the larger force was carrying some sort of gravity projectors to forcibly "shape" the jump-zone to improve it's landing characteristics, and more such jumps will be made, each closer to the exit-zones, allowing them to cut-off couriers before they even have a chance to leave their stations.

In some ways, that would be scarier than Farseer blocking.

And would require to notably increase the mass of the target star by a measurable amount.
Which would require dismantling several jupiters to get the mass necessary to build starships....
IF gravforce projectors were a technology working in Outsiderverse while not actually increasing the solar system mass, it would have to interact with hyperspace, despite realspace/truespace and hyperspace not interacting...
I'm pretty sure that gravity wells in realspace do interact with jumpspace, hence why jumpspace vectors have any relation at all to realspace stars.

And if grav projectors were a real thing, I bet that they'd still be really energy expensive, and presumably have some sort of focusing problem akin to photons.


Fri May 25, 2018 8:24 pm
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Post Re: Page 129: ¨Deep Jump
hi hi

Absalom wrote:
Huh? No, I believe that Arioch originally said that, apparently it involves accuracy to replace strength, I was just responding to a question of what Tempo might be doing.
There's a possibly relevant post about it here.

Arioch wrote:
Telepathy has never been well suited to long-range communication. In ancient times before amplifiers, telepathic sensitivity could only increase reception range of normal messages by say an order of magnitude (~1 km), which is not enough to reach between settlements. Therefore a long-range telepathic message must be "shouted" by a powerful telepath, which is potentially injurious to nearby Loroi. It would be like using a loudspeaker that could send an audio message miles away... it would severely damage the hearing of anyone nearby. This is only really usable for brief messages in dire emergency situations.

In the current era, Farseers and their equipment are specialized for detecting the presence, location, and condition of remote minds. They are not specialized for receiving distant telepathic signals, and so do not make for good FTL radios. It is possible to send amplified messages that a Farseer can receive at distance, but this presents the same problem as above; it's dangerous to other Loroi near to the sender (not to mention the sender herself).


Sat May 26, 2018 2:26 am
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