Well of Souls Forums

kfcroc18 wrote: ↑

Sun Sep 05, 2021 10:41 pm

Have the Loroi ever used something like 'bomb sniffing dogs' in their military?

On Deinar, miros were sometimes used to located food (kind of like the way pigs are used to located truffles), but miros usually too stubborn and ill-tempered to be trained to scent something else.

On Perrein, there were "worm-handlers" who used various sori to help locate certain items by scent, but again these had to be things that the sori were adapted to smell, as they were difficult to breed and even more difficult to train.

But was there something that needed to be sniffed out? Would the Loroi commit "dishonorable" acts of sabotage or even terrorism against each other? Or were there any substances on Deinar that could be used as drugs and thus, require smuggling?
I guess there were plenty of shrooms on Perrein. Those worm-handlers also sound intriguing, are there any deserts on Perrein?

Also, how long is the moia (epoch) or what does this term mean?

Training an animal to detect arbitrary smells is usually pretty simple, you just need to associate the item in question with food.

People have even managed to train bees to sniff out landmines. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6701517.stm

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:03 am

But was there something that needed to be sniffed out? Would the Loroi commit "dishonorable" acts of sabotage or even terrorism against each other? Or were there any substances on Deinar that could be used as drugs and thus, require smuggling?

In time periods in which the use of animals was valuable, smuggling of contraband or terrorist bombings were not really a thing. In the modern period, the Loroi have mechanical detection tools which are a lot easier to use than animals, but their main tool to find out if someone is smuggling contraband or weaponry is to ask them, "Are you smuggling contraband or weaponry?"

I think there's a distinction to be made between ethical behaviors and the personal honor that militarist societies are often obsessed with (perhaps better referred to as "face"). In our history, the cultures that placed the highest importance on personal honor were the ones that committed the most unethical acts. If you're so obsessed with saving face that you're willing to commit suicide to avoid being shamed, then there's probably very little that you wouldn't do to someone else.

(I also think that most of our codes of "honorable" behavior like chivalry or bushido are ahistorical; they came about after the period to which they were supposed to apply as a romantic view of the past. (Example: bushido wasn't codified until the Edo period after the internal warfare was over, and the only fighting that was left was personal duels between samurai.))

I don't think the modern mainstream Loroi culture is one that is obsessed with personal honor, but we have only to look at their history to know that there's very little in terms of ethical behavior that's out of their scope, and as far as sabotage or subterfuge, well... they have a whole military caste that specializes in this. (And while dogs may be useful for detecting Terminators, they are not effective against Mizol. )

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 7:03 am

Also, how long is the moia (epoch) or what does this term mean?

Moia means era, age, or epoch, and like those terms, it does not refer to a specific length of time.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:37 pm

In time periods in which the use of animals was valuable, smuggling of contraband or terrorist bombings were not really a thing. In the modern period, the Loroi have mechanical detection tools which are a lot easier to use than animals, but their main tool to find out if someone is smuggling contraband or weaponry is to ask them, "Are you smuggling contraband or weaponry?"

I think there's a distinction to be made between ethical behaviors and the personal honor that militarist societies are often obsessed with (perhaps better referred to as "face"). In our history, the cultures that placed the highest importance on personal honor were the ones that committed the most unethical acts. If you're so obsessed with saving face that you're willing to commit suicide to avoid being shamed, then there's probably very little that you wouldn't do to someone else.

(I also think that most of our codes of "honorable" behavior like chivalry or bushido are ahistorical; they came about after the period to which they were supposed to apply as a romantic view of the past. (Example: bushido wasn't codified until the Edo period after the internal warfare was over, and the only fighting that was left was personal duels between samurai.))

I don't think the modern mainstream Loroi culture is one that is obsessed with personal honor, but we have only to look at their history to know that there's very little in terms of ethical behavior that's out of their scope, and as far as sabotage or subterfuge, well... they have a whole military caste that specializes in this.

By "honorable" I meant the unspoken agreement not to involve civilians and the very important matter of not harming males. After all, bombs tend to maim and kill indiscriminately.
I have to agree that most other "cowardly" or "dishonorable", yet targeted acts like assassination, kidnapping and blackmail should've been (and still are?) quite common.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:37 pm

(And while dogs may be useful for detecting Terminators, they are not effective against Mizol. )

True, but cats are

Arioch wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 8:37 pm

Moia means era, age, or epoch, and like those terms, it does not refer to a specific length of time.

I was just trying to come up with a flavor term that would have the same meaning as a century. Perhaps something like the age where a Loroi is considered an elder/matron? About 250 to 300 years, or maybe 8 times the Semoset cycle? Do the Loroi have/had such a concept?

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:56 pm

By "honorable" I meant the unspoken agreement not to involve civilians and the very important matter of not harming males. After all, bombs tend to maim and kill indiscriminately.
I have to agree that most other "cowardly" or "dishonorable", yet targeted acts like assassination, kidnapping and blackmail should've been (and still are?) quite common.

In the Western culture that became dominant on Deinar and forms the basis of the interstellar Loroi civilization, wars were explicitly fought between armies in the field, and attacking a city or pulling your troops back into the city to use the civilians as shields were considered war crimes. These ethics didn't survive well into the modern era of total war, in which civilian workers are a strategic part of the war effort and can't easily be ignored. Despite their reputation for genocide, the Loroi don't like attacking non-military targets.

Terrorism of the kind against which bomb sniffing animals would be useful is not normally a tactic of the military... it's the resort of dissidents or marginalized nations.

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:56 pm

I was just trying to come up with a flavor term that would have the same meaning as a century. Perhaps something like the age where a Loroi is considered an elder/matron? About 250 to 300 years, or maybe 8 times the Semoset cycle? Do the Loroi have/had such a concept?

"Century" just means one hundred; if you want to say 100 years, then just say "100 years." Though the Trade numeral systen is base 8, so Loroi probably wouldn't use a base 10 number like 100.

Nan, 8
Dinos, 64
Nestas, 512
Danzos, 4096

The Loroi society seems pretty similar to that of the Kingons regarding their social hierarchy. The warrior class gets all the honors and praise, but without the civilians, their society would collapse pretty quickly

kyosanim wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 08, 2021 10:09 am

The Loroi society seems pretty similar to that of the Kingons regarding their social hierarchy. The warrior class gets all the honors and praise, but without the civilians, their society would collapse pretty quickly

Generalized contempt for the people who fulfill the lowest steps of a society's pyramid of needs is distressingly common.

I don't think the Loroi would agree with the klingon saying. 'Today is a good day to die.'

kfcroc18 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:59 pm

I don't think the Loroi would agree with the klingon saying. 'Today is a good day to die.'

Why not?
Maybe the Mizols and Listels will like it!

Dan Wyatt wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 09, 2021 6:52 am

kfcroc18 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:59 pm

I don't think the Loroi would agree with the klingon saying. 'Today is a good day to die.'

Why not?
Maybe the Mizols and Listels will like it!

T'dr'duzk b'hazg t't!

Arioch wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 11:37 pm

Cthulhu wrote: ↑

Mon Sep 06, 2021 9:56 pm

By "honorable" I meant the unspoken agreement not to involve civilians and the very important matter of not harming males. After all, bombs tend to maim and kill indiscriminately.
I have to agree that most other "cowardly" or "dishonorable", yet targeted acts like assassination, kidnapping and blackmail should've been (and still are?) quite common.

In the Western culture that became dominant on Deinar and forms the basis of the interstellar Loroi civilization, wars were explicitly fought between armies in the field, and attacking a city or pulling your troops back into the city to use the civilians as shields were considered war crimes. These ethics didn't survive well into the modern era of total war, in which civilian workers are a strategic part of the war effort and can't easily be ignored. Despite their reputation for genocide, the Loroi don't like attacking non-military targets.

Terrorism of the kind against which bomb sniffing animals would be useful is not normally a tactic of the military... it's the resort of dissidents or marginalized nations.

The thing is, if we assume that half of loroi population or less is civilians, then that means that each time one country takes over the other population is essentialy halved or worse.
It dosent matter if they will see your actions as a warcrime if you are gona die regardless if you lose, so you will burn everything that can burn, salt the land, posion all water wells, mobilize civilians etc.
Idea that warrior caste of defeated country is wiped out or turned into subclass radicalizes conflict, it makes each war a total war.
If we assume more realistic number of about 12-15 civilians per one warrior then it is not so brutal, but then we get the issue that most of the population dont have right to reproduce or become warrior replacements. Even slight losses is brutaly heavy burden on the army (i doubt that loroi warriors are so good that they cant effectively fight while being pregnant, so it is essentialy British WW1 army situation when they just run out of officers), and the one who will start train civilians are gona get tremendous advantage.

Zorg56 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:20 pm

The thing is, if we assume that half of loroi population or less is civilians, then that means that each time one country takes over the other population is essentialy halved or worse.
It dosent matter if they will see your actions as a warcrime if you are gona die regardless if you lose, so you will burn everything that can burn, salt the land, posion all water wells, mobilize civilians etc.

Why do you assume that intra-loroi conflicts were solved by the complete extermination of the losing side's military caste?

gaerzi wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 09, 2021 3:03 pm

Zorg56 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:20 pm

The thing is, if we assume that half of loroi population or less is civilians, then that means that each time one country takes over the other population is essentialy halved or worse.
It dosent matter if they will see your actions as a warcrime if you are gona die regardless if you lose, so you will burn everything that can burn, salt the land, posion all water wells, mobilize civilians etc.

Why do you assume that intra-loroi conflicts were solved by the complete extermination of the losing side's military caste?

I dont remember where exactly.
Probably even here, main content was something about prisoners or so.

kfcroc18 wrote: ↑

Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:59 pm

I don't think the Loroi would agree with the klingon saying. 'Today is a good day to die.'

"Dalid is Dalid" doesn't seem that far off from "Today is a good day to die.", but I was referring mostly to Loroi and Klingon social hierarchy.

Zorg56 wrote: ↑

Thu Sep 09, 2021 12:20 pm

The thing is, if we assume that half of loroi population or less is civilians, then that means that each time one country takes over the other population is essentialy halved or worse.
It dosent matter if they will see your actions as a warcrime if you are gona die regardless if you lose, so you will burn everything that can burn, salt the land, posion all water wells, mobilize civilians etc.

You're assuming that all wars end in the total defeat and occupation of one side. Most wars (both human and Loroi) end with a treaty in which the "losing" nation makes concessions but continues to exist. There were plenty of savage wars that ended in the total destruction of one side (both human and Loroi), either because one side fought to the last man or were put to the sword after surrendering, but this was not the norm. The farther back in Loroi history, the more savage the resolution to wars tended to be, but the more recent the conflict was, the more ordered and ritualized the conduct of war became.

Exile was a common form of punishment in the era prior to the globalization of Loroi government. It's true that defeated Loroi warriors make lousy subjects, so in the case where a victorious nation completely annexed the territory of the loser, it was common practice to exile any warriors who refused to swear fealty to the new suzerain. Executing half the population of a defeated industrial nation is quite a logistical undertaking, especially when they can't be effectively disarmed, so there were practical reasons to avoid such bloodletting where possible. There are some tales like The 47 Ronin in which a group of exiles bide their time and then return to wreak bloody vengeance... so banishment does come with its own risks, but these cases were mostly ones in which the losing side felt especially wronged in some way.

Imposing an embargo on a conquered world might be an effective alternative, especially if the industrial infrastructure was knocked back a few tech levels, thus eliminating the conquered world's space-going capabilities in the process.

How well would the average Loroi get along with Terran pets like birds, cats, dogs, rodents, et cetera?

Or is this one of those "Spoiler" questions?

Keklas Rekobah wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:45 pm

How well would the average Loroi get along with Terran pets like birds, cats, dogs, rodents, et cetera?

As differently as different individual humans would react to unfamiliar animals.

Arioch wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:47 pm

Keklas Rekobah wrote: ↑

Fri Sep 10, 2021 8:45 pm

How well would the average Loroi get along with Terran pets like birds, cats, dogs, rodents, et cetera?

As differently as different individual humans would react to unfamiliar animals.

So somewhere between "Aww, can I hold him?" and "Get that THING away from me!".

Can Loroi use senzai with animals native to the Sister Worlds?  Do those animals have senzai as well?