Mk_C wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 10:24 pm
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
Hey, I've got several questions and thought I'd just dump them here for discussion.
Nice.
Nice.
Not many other options. Walker reports an unidentified contact 850 km away... and the screen displays this, with thee description reading "unidentified contact course blablabla range 850 km". Gotta be it, nah?
We have no idea what Historian reactionless drives look like. No reason why they can't have big glowy nozzles. Soopa-adwansid incomprehensibl teknology!
Fair.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
About Loroi language. I remember reading that Loroi telepathy is very literal, and their language is similarly so. Are these phrases an artifact of translation, or does Loroi thought allow for more abstract phraseology?
It most certainly does allow for it. Talon humorously refers to Tempo as "mother" on page 143. Moonglow unloads caustic sarcasm at Ashrain on page 128. Charred Steppes are called Charred Steppes, despite being neither literally charred nor actual steppes. And there are the examples you provided. Blueberries are generally more direct and literal than humans, but they are not Asperger's cases - idiomatic phraseology is perfectly natural to them, it's just not interwoven into their interaction as densely as it is for humans.
I agree that fits with the observed language. Although, I do remember reading a post here made by Arioch indicating that they would be astounded by poetic language. So perhaps it's a difference of degree than kind.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
Also, I was wondering why Alexander would decline to tell them about the other scout ships?
Because that implies possible existence of his counterparts among Hierarchy. Alex is treading on very thin ice already, and outright stating that yeah some other scout crew might be busy wooing the Enemy towards an alliance with humanity right now would not do well for his survival. That's not very forthcoming of him, but Loroi can surmise the possibility from the presented general setup of the contact mission - take off with a tanker/relay, spread out past a certain point, try to find and contact SOMEBODY. Supposedly, by the time they do, they will be a bit less inclined to bind him to a bunk and painfully violate his brain due to building up some mutual trust, while also being more understanding of some minor reluctance after starting off the entire contact on such a note.
Really, I'd imagine knowing about the other scout ships would just incentivise them to work more quickly with him. I doubt the Loroi would think to blame him for the fact that a Human ship might accidentally stumble onto the Umaik.
Alex disclosing the location of Earth is a constantly overestimated issue. It's not really hidden at this point. If Union or Hierarchy desire to, they can single out the Sol region from the scout ships approach vector, and when they come there - sure as hell they'll find human buoys everywhere, and soon - Earth itself. Even without the scouts' vectors to guide them - Orgus refugees already literally stumbled into it, and it's now a matter of a year or two before someone else does - which is the main reason behind the urgent contact mission in the first place.
True, but it might delay them for a month or so. Which just might be what you need if you and your ally are rushing to send a fleet out to defend earth. Keep in mind, I mostly just listed that case to highlight the extreme caution Alexander seemed to be displaying by witholding the information about the scout ships.
All that ommision seemed to do, in my eyes, was to misinform his negotiation partners. So, either he never tells them, and runs the risk of wandering an expeditionary force into an Umaik expedition being led by another human scout ship. Or, he tells them later, and earns and exhasperated look from tempo as she tells him off for not telling them earlier.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
Also, now that he has a starmap of enemy territory, would he know where the other scout-ships are in relation to the major combatants?
Alex didn't even know the prospective course across the bubble for Bellarmine. It's entirely up in the air if even Hamilton knew where the other scouts would be - if there even WERE pre-planned vectors for them, and they were improvising after spreading out from Prabhu by orienting themselves on the spot from local evidence. As far as they knew aliens could be in any direction save the one they came from, and it would take a massive fleet to give any semblance of a proper coverage - so it didn't really matter if their vectors were spread out evenly or more clustered, the main hope was always the target (alien borders) being way too big to miss. In other words - it's entirely likely that the only thing Alex knows about the other scout ships on the mission is that they exist.
Weather Alexander himself knew, I think the plot for the scout ships was set in advance of the mission. In page 60, Alexander mentions that the Bellaramine was sent to search a range of systems, and, notably, that the range of systems was preselected. He says he doesn't know why the systems were chosen, but that doesn't mean he doesn't know which systems they're meant to search.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
And, about Loroi civilians, what is the societal line about their status? I mean, how does modern loroi civilization justify keeping them as an underclass.
The same way every society ever justified having an underclass. Some slight ethical contradictions spread around the issue, some suddenly flexible morality where there's little reason to question it at the first glance, some heavy lean on tradition here, some subtle internalized bigotry there, some glass ceilings all over it, some social Darwinism sprinkled on top. It's not meant to be flawless, or pretty and admirable for those outside of their cultural paradigm - just seems to function well enough to them, and they don't care much about the opinions of
outsiders.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
As a high tech society, I imagine they should have enough genetic and statistical knowledge to realize that the idea of inherent civilian inferiority seems unlikely.
ci
Firstly - the literally do engage in species-wide eugenics. Not a hard thing to do when every pairing ever is arranged by the government. They most certainly do breed their own populace for more desirable warrior traits. Like psychokinesis. Thus, entering the warrior class probably does bear connotations of having supposedly "better pedigree" for the fortunate warrior, compared to her failed peers.
But, Loroi civilization has advanced knowledge of genetics and, more probably, a good system for population monitoring and statistical analysis.
Ancient societies may have had some substance of divine right. And, premodern societies may have had social darwinism. But, at the tech level the Loroi are operating at, it seems like everyone is one google-search away from discovering that the civilian normal-distribution doesn't stray that far away from the warrior one.
This fact can become all the more grating when they realize that literally half of their geniuses are in no position to apply their talents to the war effort.
Secondly - it's not presented as "inherent", at least beyond civilians supposedly being the "weaker pick" of their inherited blood (remember - most of them are themselves daughters of warriors, who reproduce way more than civilians do). The way it is shaped out is that the warrior trials are a meritocratic test, where all those who display strength of their flesh and spirit may pass, while those who fail do not deserve to wield power or generally even reproduce.
As I recall, only the children of warriors, (and those with telekinetic abilities) are even allowed to take the test. And, most Loroi who take the test pass, even those who fail the test can try again after some punishment. From what I remember of what Arioch said, the test isn't really one of competense as it is one of a Loroi's willingness to stay around long enough to survive the trials.
Also, where are you getting the information that most civilians are failed warriors. A warrior failing the trials seems like a fairly rare event.
Civilians are painted to be an underclass by the fault of their own personal failings and them only. At least that's how Loroi culture presents it - the real situation would certainly be infinitely more complex, ugly and nuanced at the same time, but it is a simple and accessible picture that most Loroi would have no reason to question even if they were a society with a tendency for questioning things like that.
Again, I feel like the genetic and statistical data outlined above would lead to someone questioning it, expecially those who would have something to gain from the status quo being overturned, (that being, fifty percent of the population.) So, the way I see it, there's ample evidence and ample desire to question the system, man.
Also, I'm not so sure the Loroi in the comics are really great enough at gymnastics to blame a civilian borne child for failing a test it never took, especially considering the fact that one percent of civilian children are guaranteed a shot at becoming a warrior.
And they are not. Reflection doesn't seem to be a strong Loroi suit. The great masses of the people, big lie, all the usual shebang. Not the topic that is likely to be deeply excavated in the canon anyhow.
I'd say that's rather underestemating the Loroi. They''ve undoubtedly been exposed to alien ideas and literal aliens. I doubt it would take a genius civilian much prompting to say... "hey, why am I bowing to her!? And why is my daughter going to the second best school in the solar system!?"
We're in for some space battles and space bitches, not contemplations of all the different forms that social strife can take in extraterrestrial civilizations.
But contemplation is all the rage right now!
Rigid social stratification is the preferred kool-aid of these alien babes and Alex is not very likely to convince them to unravel the entire fabric of their society in favor of Truth, Justice, and the American Way with the power of his irresistible looks.
Hey, I didn't say he would or that he even should focus his effort on that. I'm just bringing it up as a point of discussion.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
In fact, the fact that they will recruit telekinetic civilians seems to be a glaring realization of this fact.
Farseers are all civilians. It seems like the peculiarities of their function crash somewhat with the cultural presentation of the Loroi idea of a warriors.
I was refrencing the Teidar and Mizol, who recruit from civilians if I recall. And, they're quite high prestige schools, too, as I recall.
Which makes me wonder, would a Teidar with civilian parents be embarrassed about the fact, especially considering she probably outranks (rather out-cools) ninety percent of the organing, non-gmo, all natural warriors she works with.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
And, even before Loroi got advanced technology, was there any notion that, pricked with a needle, do they not all bleed blue?
Were there any movements to dissolve the societal line between civilian and warriors. (Mind, this wouldn't mean getting rid of the caste system, just allowing civilians to more readily enter into warrior society.)
There probably were. They are not a monoculture, after all - there are still various and divers nations and cultures under the grand umbrella of "Loroi Union". But with all the chaotic conditions of Loroi biology, their situation on the Splinter Colonies, peculiarities of their historic process, etc, seems like it sorta didn't take off so far. Technological development being largely predetermined by the Soya artefacts, extremely long lifespans and the accompanying inertia of culture, biology dictating the dire need for a strict control over means of reproduction, male Farseers keeping their hand on the pulse of popular opinions and preventing the elite from becoming entirely disconnected from the plights of their less fortunate daughters, Mizol and Teidar being inherently super-effective at disassembling and putting down any subversive elements while also having inherent aristocratic elements due to being actually tied to blood, the idea of virtue being inherently tied with personal capacity for violence - those just don't leave much opportunity for a human-like history of frequent social upheaval and reform, inviting a much more stable and rigid alternative. Such cases, eh.
Not sure, I'd desribe Loroi virtures as bieng the ability to enact violence. Of course, they probably respect power, but I think honesty and courage are more in line with their idealizations of morality.
I think this is one of those things that can be misconstrued when looking into another culture.
For example, an alien looking at a Superman comic might get the idea that humans idealize the morality of blowing up planets with your fists. (Certaintly, some comic writers seem to have fallen into that line of thought.) But, a more nuanced view would say that Superman is 'about' truth, justice and the american way. An even more nuanced view would probably include a short lecture about bigtory and the plight of opressed peoples in early twentieth century earth.
Of course, this issue can become even more muddied when it applies to real people. Sure, teidar are respected for their strength, especially during the ancient periods. But, even if the loroi treat teidar as the moral ideal, I doubt that the power aspect is what they respect, or rather, what they tell themselves is worthy of respect.
If you laid out a list of loroi leaders, I'm pretty sure their "winning features" will probably have little to do with their ability to enact violence. This pattern is noticable even in human culture. Look at a list of famous leaders, and most of them will probably have an anecdote about their wisdom, or clever ideas, or courage. Even those regarded almost solely for their tactical ability, will have some epithet saying their treated their soldiers well, and so forth.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
About the early stages of the Loroi Umaik war. I remember reading that there was a - civilian backed - coup because the new emperor was about to nationalize industries. This, if I have my timelines right, happened after the Loroi lost a whole lot of territory, (territory that would later be subject to a genocide) and after the head of their state had been killed in battle along with their flagship. Like, what? I mean, even 1940's, post-gilded age, monopoly mustache america manged to get it's act together for World War Two. And nobody even took American territory. I find this surprising because I imagined the Loroi would be a bit more patriotic than that. I also find it surprising that the civilian underlclass could, or would, support such an insubstantial coup against what was very clearly a necessary move. This seems in stark contrast to the civilian led American response in WWII.
The coup plot was not started by the civilians. It originated in the Diadem, among the Loroi high military command, specifically the so-called Axis faction, that had certain disagreements with Greywind's personality (her Mizol origins and staff position, which was a novelty for an Azerein) and policy (which went against a lot of things that Axis members saw as the core of Loroi culture), plus there were some suspicions of foul play being involved in the previous Azerein's heroic demise through certain powers coughMizolcough utilizing their control over military intel to engineer a suicide-by-shell mission for Emperor's personal squadron, which may or may not be ultimately true. In any case, Loroi civilians cannot initiate such machinations on their own - they kinda lack the leverage to do so due to being largely a disempowered underclass. They can only support such sentiment among the military elite when they can, and when it protects their own interests - like in the case of the Axis coup, with a prospect of a massive nationalization of industries. Which, for all we know, can ultimately serve to be beneficial for common Loroi civilians, at the cost of the position of wealthier civilian magnates - those being the real backers of the conspiracy, not "civilians" as a class. The reform certainly proves to be beneficial for the war effort - sasuga total war economy. In any case - the Loroi Union is not the United States of America. And for a stark contrast for your own historic example - there was a certain human Empire (or two (or three(or more depending on what you count))) that DID fall to an internal uprising right in the course of another certain World War. And WWII itself saw no shortage of military coups and uprisings happening as front lines danced across Europe and Asia. The extreme strain of warfare kinda tends to catalyse this sort of shit.
It says there were suspicions of treatchery, but I get the feeling that the accusations were ones of convenience. And, yes, my use of the word 'civilians' was not meant to imply that all civilians were involved. I used the word to highlight that those indivituals who backed the coup were civilians.
Every military coup in human history was justified by a patriotic sentiment - the coup agents presenting (and frequently seeing) themselves as saving their society from a dangerous/incompetent/foolish/subverted leadership, toppling the false idols in the name of the greater good. Axis was no different in this regard - as far as that part of the Diadem and their supporters were concerned, Greywind was a cowardly usurper malevolently dismantling everything that Loroi society stood for and a Hierarchy agent as well, they saw themselves as the true daughters of the Union in their efforts to oppose her.
I disagree. I think that coups generally, and in this case, are often a grab for power. (Of course, the argument could be made that any change of government before modern states was a grab for power, but I digress.) And, in this case, it seems blatantly to be the case. I remember reading a comment by Arioch that the accusations were, to put it politely, unfounded according to the telepathic rumor mill. And those nations that were undergoing coups, how many of them were in the process of being completely destroyed by a hostile power? How many of them had a chance of surviving even if they were stable?
And, notably, how many of the people currently doing the couping actually wanted the state to exist. I doubt a seperatist movement allying with the enemy and using the war to carve out a ethnic state can be considered patriotic, or atleast, patriotic to the state it happens to be couping.
And even if we did - the interpretation depends on the context. Loroi context is never exactly the same as human one. The difference is the whole thing that makes it interesting. That and blu elf tiddy, of course.
What do you mean? About the context, that is.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
When the Loroi conquered Mannadi territory and met stiff resistance, they committed genocide. Could the Loroi command in charge of the rebellions not have foreseen the consequences of being too good at resisting? Were they blamed for the results after their territory was recaptured?
Now that's easy - N O. That's blatantly not how the entirety of the common Loroi culture works. To die fighting is presented to be the ultimate destination and success of a proper warrior life among Loroi, while a life on it's own is not really valued highly. Every good blueberry knows that a bloody death is infinitely preferable to a life of cowardice. The opinion of those who actually get to die - or survive by a hair's breadth (coughFirebladecough) - might clash strongly with the sentiment as well as with itself, producing delicious and entirely plot-relevant character drama that we are exploring right now in the current pages, but those voices would be seen as
outsider outlooks on the issue among the larger Loroi society.
I doubt they're that fanatical. I don't disagree that, as a warrior culture, they'll have an appetite for losses that's perhaps greater than might otherwise be the case, but unnecessary losses are unnecessary losses.
Of course, the indivitual fighters that were following orders would be remembered well. But it's their commanders I'm wondering about. I mean, what did they accomplish with their efforts?
That's not a rhetorical question, as they appaently delayed the Umaik's ability to use the captured worlds to bolster their industry. But, their losses aren't marginal either.
Whatever the case, I doubt that the Loroi run on "death before logic" mentality. A loss is a loss, and a commander losing that many people would, I imagine, have to have a good reason in order not to get charged with incompetence or treatchery.
If you disagree, I'd like to ask you to present some examples of any earth cultures that have had a similar mentality to that which you state.
White wrote: ↑Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:07 pm
Also, considering it's age, were there any major deposits of fossil fuels on Deinar?
Eh, it's possible. Fossil fuels deposits require a peculiar biosphere to form, not just sheer age. If Soya engineered biospheres can indeed produce fossil fuel deposits - there's no reason why Deinar couldn't've had at least some formed, even through it's relatively short history.
Now those are some walls of text we're throwing at each other, if I've ever seen any.
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