Outsider Ground War

[GeoModder]

2nd important question: Blonde blue eyed Loroi?

With clipped ears though. They wouldn't pass as über otherwise.


On the "victory" discussion: add in climatic parameters. Delay the early onset of winter during operation Barbarossa by a few weeks, and Moskou would've fallen. Could essentially be a breaking point for Russian morale.

[bunnyboy]

There's a long list of things that a sane German leadership (with hindsight) could have done differently or more effectively... but if Hitler & Co. hadn't been completely bonkers, they probably wouldn't have started the war in the first place, so there's a limit to the value of such observations.

Yup, as is said before, no war would have been the best option.

The war wasn't avoidable. Germany was politically instable and economically living on loans, so whoever was leading it, had to make something fast. Even the WWI wasn't avoidable, because every nation of Europe was making themselves ready for next great war changing their alliances almost monthly. Surprisingly, most of time Germany and Britannia wanted to divide France, because they were afraid the rise of next Napoleon.

[discord]

fred:
yes, but it is not easy.(one of my fav runs involved playing as US and joining the axis, that was a blast.), delaying US involvement in the war is quite doable though.
yes, but kinda difficult.
yes.
not sure, but morale is coded for more strategic and longterm issues rather then 'oh crap, disaster!' things.

damn good simulator, the AI however absolutely sucks at amphibious and aerial insertions.

[fredgiblet]

WW2 was only unavoidable because of what Versailles did to Germany. If the Allies hadn't saddled Germany with all the blame for the war and hadn't been such dick-bags about winning Germany probably wouldn't have fallen to the Nazis and wouldn't have ended up kicking off the second war.

[bunnyboy]

WW2 was only unavoidable because of what Versailles did to Germany. If the Allies hadn't saddled Germany with all the blame for the war and hadn't been such dick-bags about winning Germany probably wouldn't have fallen to the Nazis and wouldn't have ended up kicking off the second war.

Perhaps, but it still would have civil war, when Vilhelm II descended from throne. And Nazis, Communists or someone else could have taken power by being more ruthless than anyone else.

[Just a Crazy-Man]

so what kinda toys does the human have?

[discord]

crazy guy: it is just possible humans have better ground pounder stuff compared to the main players, more because of refinement and perfection of equipment not basic technology.

[Just a Crazy-Man]

Quantity and Quality.

[fredgiblet]

fred:
yes, but it is not easy.(one of my fav runs involved playing as US and joining the axis, that was a blast.), delaying US involvement in the war is quite doable though.
yes, but kinda difficult.
yes.
not sure, but morale is coded for more strategic and longterm issues rather then 'oh crap, disaster!' things.

damn good simulator, the AI however absolutely sucks at amphibious and aerial insertions.

Interesting. I have 2, it's on the list to play. Of course the list is something like 200 games long.

[Muttley]

far be it from me to stick to an argument when it has more holes in it than the Bismark.

Well, the Bismarck wasn´t sunk by the shells. It´s citadel, and therefor the ability to float, remained intact because the british artillery was too weak to penetrate it. It sunk, because her own crew opened the valves to prevent her from being captured. But indeed, it was only a smoldering wreck at that time.

[/quote]



I can almost agree. The Bismarck was sinking already, just not fast enough. The Nazi crew set the scuttling charges to make sure it wasn't captured.

Bismarck had already been mission-killed in the Denmark Strait, where a shell from Prince of Wales had penetrated the bow causing flooding, a massive fuel leak and the destruction of the pump that could have recovered the remaining uncontaminated fuel. It was rendered fuel-critical, and had to run for home. Having had the bad luck to annihilate HMS Hood, possibly the most emotively-charged ship in the Royal Navy due to its pre-war "showing the flag" tours (and looking damned good while doing it), Bismarck was doomed. The Mighty Hood was the epitome of Royal Naval sea power. They had the maximum attention of the Royal Navy in the North Atlantic.

It's interesting to note that the decisive blows were struck by obsolete aircraft, the biplane Fairey Swordfish torpedo bomber. Sometimes it isn't the latest technology that is decisive. In this case, the Swordfish could take off in the most foul weather, strike and return to land on

In the final engagement, Rodney and KGV silenced the Bismarck's guns in less than 30 minutes, and reduced it to a flaming shambles in an hour, as their colours remained unstruck. It was listing and the stern almost under water, but it is always true that it is easier to sink a ship by letting water in the bottom than by letting air in the top. So Dorsetshire delivered the coup de grace with torpedoes.

The Royal Navy sank the Bismarck.

And imagine Hitler having the bomb in summer/autumn 1944, which, according to a paper i once read, would have been technically possible if the nazis had focused on it.

I'd need a lot of evidence to convince me. Nuclear physics was idealogically suspect, "Jewish Science", not Deutsche Physik, and Albert Einstein is only one of the many scientists who relocated to the West before the start of the war in 1939.

The Nazi's stop-start nuclear program was heading down a blind alley, derailed by politicisation and some fundamental errors in physics.

[Trantor]

The Royal Navy sank the Bismarck.

You´re still fighting the war, aren´t you?

And imagine Hitler having the bomb in summer/autumn 1944, which, according to a paper i once read, would have been technically possible if the nazis had focused on it.

I'd need a lot of evidence to convince me. Nuclear physics was idealogically suspect, "Jewish Science", not Deutsche Physik, and Albert Einstein is only one of the many scientists who relocated to the West before the start of the war in 1939.

The Nazi's stop-start nuclear program was heading down a blind alley, derailed by politicisation and some fundamental errors in physics.

That´s why i said "imagine" and "technically".
Or do you deny us the intelligence to do so?

[GeoModder]

The Royal Navy sank the Bismarck.

You´re still fighting the war, aren´t you?

Hey, you can't claim Graf Spee circumstances for every German surface ship during the war!

[Trantor]

Hey, you can't claim Graf Spee circumstances for every German surface ship during the war!

Good one!

[Smithy]

The Graf Spee may of topped herself (including her Commander), but she was a victim of British guile.

Having had the bad luck to annihilate HMS Hood, possibly the most emotively-charged ship in the Royal Navy

Oh beloved Hood. She was a magnificent ship. Only problem being was she was a relic of first world war thinking with wooden deck/top armour. If I recall correctly she was due for a huge refit and up armouring, including the total restructuring of her citadel, which was delayed in lieu of war starting.

The real shame was that she sank so quickly. Virtually everyone in aft of the Hood died instantly and the rest were trapped, of the 1,418 crew, only three men were ever pulled out.

It's a similar story for the Bismark in terms of tragic loss, sinking after numerous torpedoes (including one from Rodney, which is ludicrous to say the least) and combination of scuttling. Dorsetshire and Maori only managed to pull 110 before being spooked by a U-Boat. Later 4 were rescued by the Germans the next morning, 2,200 men, only 114 survived.

Needless to say, Naval combat is not overly pleasant.

[Muttley]

Having wrongly rejected graphite as a moderator and miscalculated the amount of uranium needed to make a working bomb, or a reactor by more than an order of magnitude, Heisenberg doomed Nazi nuclear research. It doesn't matter how much you imagine they focus on it, they are headed in the wrong direction and cannot achieve anything.

The unnamed paper you once read was wrong. It was not technically possible for the Nazi program to produce a nuclear bomb.

Graf Spee circumstances? Langsdorff committed suicide after making sure his crew would be safe, having scuttled a seaworthy Graf Spee in the mouth of the River Plate. He was convinced that he would meet overwhelming force if he went out to fight.

Graf Spee had outgunned the three opposing cruisers (six 11" and eight 5.9" guns versus six 8" and sixteen 6" guns) so they divided his fire, knowing that their task was to damage Graf Spee enough to make the subsequent encounter with the Home Fleet more certain. This they did, destroying the oil purification plant leaving less than a day's worth of usable fuel in the tanks. Graf Spee needed weeks of repair work, and couldn't get that in Uraguay or Argentina.

So. Similarities - fuel system damage causing a mission-kill to both ships. Otherwise, none. These are matters of historical record, which you could find out for yourself.

Naval warfare is a bloody business, and sailors will almost always pick up survivors from either side once the battle is done, acknowledging a deeper bond between all those that go down to the sea in ships.

[Trantor]

...Heisenberg...

Oh, jeez.
So how about von Ardenne? That guy got the Stalin-medal for his work on the soviet bomb. Or von Weizsäcker? Or Wirtz? Diebner? Harteck? Döpel? von Laue? Bothe? Gentner? Korsching? Joos? .... a hundred names more, or more.

The unnamed paper you once read was wrong.

<max arrogance>
You´re talking to an engineer of the very nation that developed nuclear fission.
</max arrogance>

It was not technically possible for the Nazi program to produce a nuclear bomb.

Mebbe´ for Heisenberg.
But that paper analysed the max possibility (and possible drawbacks) if everything would have worked out as planned (which is more or less unlikely due to various uncertanties) and was max funded.
The Manhattan project was about 2bn$ (26bn$ in todays money), which would not have been out of reach for Germany. We´re no poor hillbillies, and we weren´t back then.

Naval warfare is a bloody business, and sailors will almost always pick up survivors from either side once the battle is done, acknowledging a deeper bond between all those that go down to the sea in ships.

Is that so? So why did your glory royal navy then leave behind 1500+ survivors of the Bismarck to die?

[JQBogus]

Smithy (in the post just above the one you quote) says that the ships picking up survivors were "spooked" by a U-boat.

[JQBogus]

crazy guy: it is just possible humans have better ground pounder stuff compared to the main players, more because of refinement and perfection of equipment not basic technology.

I'd imagine humans ground forces would give the Loroi, at least, some cause for concern. A whole army with Lotai? Eeechh!

[Suederwind]

@Trantor:
Wasn´t there this book called "Hitlers Bombe" in which it was proposed that some other, unofficial, group was working on a dirty bomb and even tested it? Some kind of atomic device build around hollow charges, if I remember correctly.
That thing (if it ever existed) was the closest thing to a atomic bomb the nazis ever build. Thank God!

[Trantor]

@Trantor:
Wasn´t there this book called "Hitlers Bombe" in which it was proposed that some other, unofficial, group was working on a dirty bomb and even tested it? Some kind of atomic device build around hollow charges, if I remember correctly.
That thing (if it ever existed) was the closest thing to a atomic bomb the nazis ever build. Thank God!

Yes, from R. Karlsch. A collection of rumors and could-have-beens. Like many other publications. Don´t know though how much of it is fiction or exaggeration.

But that paper i once read was no such thing, it was an analysis of the situation starting in autumn ´34, of course with (our) future knowledge, but with weighing pros and cons of different paths, and dealing with comprehensible numbers of cost, manpower and other things (From what we know today i would have placed my bet on von Ardenne). All hypotheticallly, yes, but as realistic as possible.

In reality though the Nazis came nowhere near the "big" bomb, and that wasn´t Heisenbergs or any other scientists fault, but a mere pathetic buerocratic act from a little nobody named Erich Schumann, who then was the chief penpusher at the HWA. His imagination was by far too insular to understand what he had before him. Like all the other penpushers above him, and not to forget the pathetic little WWI-infantryveteran at the top of the food chain.

Smithy (in the post just above the one you quote) says that the ships picking up survivors were "spooked" by a U-boat.

That´s what they say (now). I say they took revenge for the Hood.
Or how likely is a surfacing of an uboat directly into the biggest amassment of hostile ships in the atlantic sea ever?
In fact the first uboat on "ground zero" arrived seven hours later.