Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

[Bamax]

That sounds like a lot of nukes will be needed to cover a standard battlefront.

It's best used for countering the missile spam the Umiak use.

I get that, but my understanding is that the Umiak missile spam spans tens if not hundreds or thousands of kilometers. A 3 km diameter range anti-missile mine doesn't sound very effective.
I assume the loroi are already using anti-missile systems.

Loroi have mass into energy fuel...kind of like AM but I reckon easier to handle without it blowing up in their faces.

It's the same thing they use on their ships and I do not doubt they could make missiles with them.

Missiles will intercept the umiak missiles, and an exploding multi-target zapping X-ray missile will be a lot closer to the missile spam than the Loroi who launched them will.

Meanwhile Loroi could use their long range cannons to zap at least some of the Umiak mssiles while their own anti-missile bomb pumped lasers take out the majority.

My point? Loroi do not...at least not shown...appear to use bomb pumped laser tech at all...when it would make them a more effective fighting force.

Beams have long range, especially Loroi beams...they are known for that.

[boldilocks]

It's best used for countering the missile spam the Umiak use.

I get that, but my understanding is that the Umiak missile spam spans tens if not hundreds or thousands of kilometers. A 3 km diameter range anti-missile mine doesn't sound very effective.
I assume the loroi are already using anti-missile systems.

Loroi have mass into energy fuel...kind of like AM but I reckon easier to handle without it blowing up in their faces.

It's the same thing they use on their ships and I do not doubt they could make missiles with them.

Missiles will intercept the umiak missiles, and an exploding multi-target zapping X-ray missile will be a lot closer to the missile spam than the Loroi who launched them will.

Meanwhile Loroi could use their long range cannons to zap at least some of the Umiak mssiles while their own anti-missile bomb pumped lasers take out the majority.

My point? Loroi do not...at least not shown...appear to use bomb pumped laser tech at all...when it would make them a more effective fighting force.

Beams have long range, especially Loroi beams...they are known for that.

Whether they are closer to the umiak missiles isn't the issue. An anti-missile mine with an effective range of 3 km isn't going to do much in a setting where effective combat ranges for anti-missile weaponry is already about 100.000 km

If your engagement zone is in the range of 200.000 km^2, you'd need about 13.000 nuke-mines spread out evenly to take out a single wave of torpedoes.

[Bamax]

I get that, but my understanding is that the Umiak missile spam spans tens if not hundreds or thousands of kilometers. A 3 km diameter range anti-missile mine doesn't sound very effective.
I assume the loroi are already using anti-missile systems.

Loroi have mass into energy fuel...kind of like AM but I reckon easier to handle without it blowing up in their faces.

It's the same thing they use on their ships and I do not doubt they could make missiles with them.

Missiles will intercept the umiak missiles, and an exploding multi-target zapping X-ray missile will be a lot closer to the missile spam than the Loroi who launched them will.

Meanwhile Loroi could use their long range cannons to zap at least some of the Umiak mssiles while their own anti-missile bomb pumped lasers take out the majority.

My point? Loroi do not...at least not shown...appear to use bomb pumped laser tech at all...when it would make them a more effective fighting force.

Beams have long range, especially Loroi beams...they are known for that.

Whether they are closer to the umiak missiles isn't the issue. An anti-missile mine with an effective range of 3 km isn't going to do much in a setting where effective combat ranges for anti-missile weaponry is already about 100.000 km

If your engagement zone is in the range of 200.000 km^2, you'd need about 13.000 nuke-mines spread out evenly to take out a single wave of torpedoes.

Well then...can Loroi put beams on missiles that have the same range as shipboard cannon?

If so...that's how they win.

If not....they are going to lose anyway unless a miracle happens or the Umiak make the worst blunder ever in the war so far.

Unless they can make peace or deus ex machina saves them, the Loroi are doomed here both tactically and strategically.

They been fighting a war of attrition for too long as it is.

So they cannot afford to take heavy losses but the Umiak obviously can.

Really the only advantage they had was rather 'cheap' attacks.


Since they have less resources attrition is suicide by it's very definition:

A war of attrition is a military strategy in which one side tries to cause so many losses of soldiers and so much destruction of military equipment that it wears down the enemy forces until they collapse. The side with more resources (soldiers and military equipment) is the side that usually wins.

Clearly this is not working as Loroi weaponry is not effective enough to do enough damage to nake Umiak think it's not worth it anymore.

If the Loroi want to really end the war, they need to wipe out every supply base the Umiak have, then mop up the rest of their forces.

I not sure they can pull that off. At best they could likely take ouy several bases, all if they are very fortunate. But I don't think they have the resources to simply end the Umiak as a threat...only hold them off temporarily.

[Ithekro]

Missiles take up space. Space that they don't have on Lorai ships. It also takes materials. Something the Loroi seem to be having trouble with verses the Umiak, since the war has not been fought in pre-war Umiak space for the entire war.

The Loroi did manage a major offensive some decades ago that got about to the original border before they ran into some Ultra-heavy starships and their farseeing couldn't detect ship movements as well, possibly due to large populations in the border systems. Loroi's newer ships can probably make a better effort in a future offensive, the problem has been rebuilding and trying to find an opening. The Umiak seem to have gotten a sudden advantage and are moving on it heavily. If it peters out, that may be a signal for the Loroi to launch their counter-offensive at last. But they have to find out what the Umiak's latest advantage is based on.

[boldilocks]

Loroi have mass into energy fuel...kind of like AM but I reckon easier to handle without it blowing up in their faces.

It's the same thing they use on their ships and I do not doubt they could make missiles with them.

Missiles will intercept the umiak missiles, and an exploding multi-target zapping X-ray missile will be a lot closer to the missile spam than the Loroi who launched them will.

Meanwhile Loroi could use their long range cannons to zap at least some of the Umiak mssiles while their own anti-missile bomb pumped lasers take out the majority.

My point? Loroi do not...at least not shown...appear to use bomb pumped laser tech at all...when it would make them a more effective fighting force.

Beams have long range, especially Loroi beams...they are known for that.

Whether they are closer to the umiak missiles isn't the issue. An anti-missile mine with an effective range of 3 km isn't going to do much in a setting where effective combat ranges for anti-missile weaponry is already about 100.000 km

If your engagement zone is in the range of 200.000 km^2, you'd need about 13.000 nuke-mines spread out evenly to take out a single wave of torpedoes.

Well then...can Loroi put beams on missiles that have the same range as shipboard cannon?

If so...that's how they win.

That's a gigantic amount of expensive targeting and weapons equipment to put on something you only use once. The loroi aren't able to outproduce the Umiak at this point.
Even if you had the extra productive capacity and the inclination, you would effectively need the missiles to act as AI-drones that had to be able to acquire and re-aquire targets as they approached their operational range. If by then the enemy fleet, who'll be fully able to see you fire those missiles, have pulled back or maneuvered out of the missile path, the missiles will either have to fly even further until they get into range or run out of fuel, depending on the range they're supposed to be used.

My guess is the only way to make it a sustainable weapon is to have it be able to be picked back up after battle for reuse, because most of these missiles will be wasted shots.
And if you don't have the energy-storage capability to keep a one-shot battery on each missile, you'll have to blow up the missile to generate the energy for that one shot.

[Werra]

Why build a weapon you can only use one time if you can create a ship that can fend off missiles and fill additional roles? If the Loroi use a bomb to destroy Umiak torpedoes, that's a guaranteed loss of resources for them. If the same task can be done by a ship, they still retain the resources they invested into the ship. The Loroi like keeping their ships alive and are making the necessary investments in their longevity. They lose destroyers regularly, but with the amount of missiles and gunboats the Umiak seemingly have to throw at the Loroi, that investment is apparently worth it.
The resource expenditure for the Umiak per engagement in terms of missiles can very well be equivalent to a ship or two. So the Umiak need to invest hard resources into any assault, before the Loroi even start firing.
To me the Loroi seem to be doing what they can to exhaust the Umiak means, while saving their own. Part of that is opting for a large investment in the shape of a ship with the chance for dividends if the ship survives enough battles. They definitely have an easier time of pulling their ships of the line to repair them. Why not capitalize on the defenders advantage as much as possible?

[Bamax]

Why build a weapon you can only use one time if you can create a ship that can fend off missiles and fill additional roles? If the Loroi use a bomb to destroy Umiak torpedoes, that's a guaranteed loss of resources for them. If the same task can be done by a ship, they still retain the resources they invested into the ship. The Loroi like keeping their ships alive and are making the necessary investments in their longevity. They lose destroyers regularly, but with the amount of missiles and gunboats the Umiak seemingly have to throw at the Loroi, that investment is apparently worth it.
The resource expenditure for the Umiak per engagement in terms of missiles can very well be equivalent to a ship or two. So the Umiak need to invest hard resources into any assault, before the Loroi even start firing.
To me the Loroi seem to be doing what they can to exhaust the Umiak means, while saving their own. Part of that is opting for a large investment in the shape of a ship with the chance for dividends if the ship survives enough battles. They definitely have an easier time of pulling their ships of the line to repair them. Why not capitalize on the defenders advantage as much as possible?

The Umiak I presume are not fools. They have been playing defense until now...now they can finally do to the Loroi what has been done to them for decades. Cheap surprise attacks. And if the Umiak KNOW where the Loroi ressupply bases are, then all they have to do is hit them and the war is won.

Loroi vessels cannot survive in combat without ressupply.


Assuming the Umiak do exactly this, the Loroi would do well to keep their highest kill count vessels extra protected with project excalibur multi-target X-ray or whatever other beam missile killers they can come up with. They are losing anyway so resource conservation won't matter, only surviving long enough to drive the enemy back will

Once their supplies dry up, they won't be able to afford the losses they are even sustaining now.

The longer the best Loroi fighters stay alive, the higher the Umiak kill count. And by the looks of the transports the Umiak brought and the fact that they already stomped a supply depot...they are here to occupy and conquer.

[gaerzi]

The Umiak I presume are not fools. They have been playing defense until now...now they can finally do to the Loroi what has been done to them for decades. Cheap surprise attacks.

It's the Loroi who've been playing defense. Their cheap surprise attacks are not done on Umiak systems, they're done on Umiak task forces invading Loroi systems, and the interception takes place in the scorched ruins of what used to be Loroi systems. While the Umiak forces have lost plenty of ships, they have not lost any system; their supply lines and industrial bases have not been threatened. (Except once, but it ended in disaster for the Loroi.)

[Ithekro]

The Loroi have mission specific escort cruisers designed for fleet defense. This also appears to be what the Umiak target first, as that was what the Winter TIde was in the battle we witnessed. It wasn't the missiles that took out the Winter Tide, is was the beam weapons once the Umiak got into range. The Umiak missiles are more to oppress the Loroi forces long enough to get into beam weapon range to attack them properly. The Loroi can't ignore them since the missiles will do damage if they ignore them, so they can't use all assets to engage the Umiak. Nor can they build ships with more offensive arms since they need a number of laser autocannons to make sure the ships survive the hail of missiles the Umiak use.

Newer Loroi ships are being built with less laser autocannons, and stronger shields and/or armor than the the older units. This probably has to do with the dedicated escort cruisers being build in numbers to allow for more offensive weapons to be put on the war cruisers and the like.

[Bamax]

The Loroi have mission specific escort cruisers designed for fleet defense. This also appears to be what the Umiak target first, as that was what the Winter TIde was in the battle we witnessed. It wasn't the missiles that took out the Winter Tide, is was the beam weapons once the Umiak got into range. The Umiak missiles are more to oppress the Loroi forces long enough to get into beam weapon range to attack them properly. The Loroi can't ignore them since the missiles will do damage if they ignore them, so they can't use all assets to engage the Umiak. Nor can they build ships with more offensive arms since they need a number of laser autocannons to make sure the ships survive the hail of missiles the Umiak use.

Newer Loroi ships are being built with less laser autocannons, and stronger shields and/or armor than the the older units. This probably has to do with the dedicated escort cruisers being build in numbers to allow for more offensive weapons to be put on the war cruisers and the like.

I was not aware the Loroi and the Umiak used scifi shields at all.

Are they like video game hit point shields? Regenerating shields with several 'sides' where you can turn the ship in one direction so that your strongest side takes the hit while your weaker side regenerates? Or do they have the old-school Galaga shields that give a temporary 30 seconds of invulnerability before requiring 30 seconds of recharge?

In any case...that literally changes everything. With video game scifi shields you WANT semi-tight formations for the same reason Roman legions did...especially if shielding regenerates when not being pummeled.

Romans had a front line that would switch places with the second line behind them when they grew tired, and so on and so forth, which enabled them them to fight longer than their foes. The Romans often fought smarter, not harder, than their foes.


Either way....the bit of Loroi technology that is partially based on real science, that mass can be turned into energy and they have a means to do so that is not the nightmare that handling antimatter is; means that they are sitting on a gold mine of opportunity.

Perhaps the opportunity for Loroi victory lies with Alex?

If he has ever read Sun Tzu or Machevelli and the Loroi actually listen to him that alone could change the tide of the war. If Alex is a total space nerd and on his Earth he has read websites like Atomic Rockets....that too could help a great deal for the Loroi.

The Loroi have great technology but I dare say they are not using it efficiently enough. And I will say the same about the Umiak.



Neither side apparently knows how to win a war efficiently. If these were humans with equivalent tech, the war would likely be over by now....via superior tactics, strategy, and application of technology.

The way I see it, there are only a few chances the Loroi have of winning. One would involve grand battles of pure annihilation, helped along by using human tactics instead of whatever Loroi tactics that have lead them to almost losing.

The Loroi have the tech to make virtually ANYTHING found on http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/rocket/ a reality and EVEN improve upon it....they just do not realize it....yet apparently. And some of that stuff is arguably more advanced than what they are using to fight with LOL.

Another way would involve them finding and neutralizing whatever advantage the Umiak gained, or at least finding a good counter....which again, could easily be better strategy and tactics.

Humans may not get along with each other, but they do know how to fight wars and win. They are VERY good at it.

How many wars since WW1 and WW2 using advanced weapons were TOTAL wars that lasted decades? I cannot think of one. In fact even WW1 and WW2 did not last a decade. Unlike the Loroi-Umiak war.

When humans fight total wars, they don't mess around...they aim to win.

At any ratee I still say tge Loroi are not using science to the full given what they have access to. Mass to energy WITHOUT the headache of storing antimatter that can blow you to oblivion is a game changer.

If I were Alex and I wanted the Loroi to win I would tell/ask them:

Alex: You women know about nuclear bombs right?

Loroi: Yes...those are primitive-

Alex: But powerful. Besides we both know you can do better than that. Your mass to energy drives would allow you to make much smaller and more powerful bombs than humans....and....


He goes on to explain how they can make missile size project orion missiles with pusher plates, with far greater thrust than standard missiles because the energy released for thrust into the pusher plate is far greater than a rocket engine could survive because the thermal energy reaction occurs OUTSIDE the missile.

For example, I read that the mass conversion to energy of one of the original fission bombs was the equivalent of a paper clip...and yet it leveled the cities of Japan. Loroi could and do waaay better than this with their tech and pusher plates. Since they already do mass to energy conversion at antimatter levels which is far more efficient than nuclear reactions.


End result?

Faster Loroi missiles on the best Loroi combateer vessels, along with project Excalibur style missile defense.

The Umiak I presume are just as shortsighted as the Loroi and presume that using cheap surprise attacks and doing the same attack en mass they have been doing will ultimately crush the Loroi.

If and when new Loroi tactics crush them they will be forced to either try another one trick pony or actually start developing a variety of strategies instead of putting all their faith in one that could easily fail.

Since the Loroi may be shortsighted as the Umiak, but they are not idiots.

Tactically and strategically though, humans would kick both their butts if given either one's resources.


Why scifi races are often incompetent is probably just a necessary evil to give humans something to actually do...to make them still relavent and allow them to shine in front of the ubermensche that are....scifi aliens.

[Ithekro]

The Loroi and Umiak screens aren't talked about much, but the tech levels suggest a mix of electromagnetic screens and force screens. The Umiak has more powerful screens as their tech level is slightly higher than the Loroi in some places.

[boldilocks]

I'm not sure this is the kind of story where the antagonists are defeated by this one cool trick that everyone except humans are too retarded to have figured out over 1000 years of interstellar war history.

[Bamax]

I'm not sure this is the kind of story where the antagonists are defeated by this one cool trick that everyone except humans are too retarded to have figured out over 1000 years of interstellar war history.

Perhaps not, but I am only watching these guys and gals and seeing what seems obvious to me.

Scifi races are only as competent as they are made to be by their creators or seen to be by us the readers. No more or less.

Granted I rate both the Loroi anf Umiak as more tactically sound than the Goauld from Stargate... which is admittedly not a high standard to surpass. Those guys were embarassing.

As for tactics, I will adress the other poster since I cannot quote him as the page flipped.

The Loroi vessels seem engineered around hit and run tactics, they are like calvary with guns. Whereas the Umiak seem like theu are built to stand and fight and keep whatever ground they have.


If the author is basing the shields on real life means based on physics we understand he has finite options.
Electromagnetism works great against deflecting plasma, but missiles should actually sail right through.

Bit if shields are more of the scifi videogame varierty that is fine with me too,so long they use them like they are rrying to win and not lose.

So far Umiak have only impressed me in battle, given how much missile barrage they put out.

[Ithekro]

The Loroi units we have see are designed for rapid movements and interceptions. Highly mobile forces designed to take advantage of the Loroi's Farseeing traits to be where the Umiak fleets are intending to strike. Doing so has keep the Umiak from gaining much territory in the last decade or so, while the Loroi rebuild their fleets of heavier ships and newer designs since the end of the last major offensive.

Their older fleets were effective to a point, but were not tough enough when they encountered the Umiak's heavy and superheavy forces near actual Umiak space. The other problem was that their older battleship were too slow to keep up with the, then, newer modern ships armed with the new pulse cannons and wave loom devices. Since that time, the newer battleships, while not faster, are armed with the newer pulse cannons and super heavy blasters....as well as carrying larger amounts of anti-missile ordinance. Newer command ships are not as fast as the Temptest, but are better armored, and shielded, as well as having more armaments.

However, aside from the Emperor's ship, the wave loom seems to have been abandoned on newer fleet units.

Basically, the Loroi have been building a better fleet and have had mostly the surviving old units with some newer fast response cruisers and destroyers assigned to keep the Umiak busy, to buy time for the new fleets to be ready for whatever opening the Loroi might be able to exploit. The two forces have been doing the waiting game. Testing the others looking for an opening or an edge for the last decade or so on a front line that could be around a hundred light-years long, and a dozen or so across.

[Krulle]

Interesting discussion points, Bamax, but I read a lot, and I really mean excessive lot, of "if"s.


There's a large setting here, with a lot of background story.

Things are as they are, because this is fiction.
Barging in, yelling "that will make them fight better" can always be countered...
There is no definitive "solution", otherwise the Historians would've been able to prevent the Umiak from getting into their territories.
And the Umiak would've implemented that solution themselves too.

Both sides know the other side is building up reserve fleets.
What might be happening here is, that the Umiak decided the support of such a large reserve fleet became too expensive and are throwing it all at the Loroi.

[boldilocks]

For example, I read that the mass conversion to energy of one of the original fission bombs was the equivalent of a paper clip...and yet it leveled the cities of Japan. Loroi could and do waaay better than this with their tech and pusher plates. Since they already do mass to energy conversion at antimatter levels which is far more efficient than nuclear reactions.

Were the bombs themselves the size of paper clips? Because that matters when you're mounting them on a missile or storing them aboard a warship.

[boldilocks]

Granted I rate both the Loroi anf Umiak as more tactically sound than the Goauld from Stargate... which is admittedly not a high standard to surpass. Those guys were embarassing.

Were they, though? They, in-story, had dominated the galaxy for some time through their current strategies, only ending up in a stale-mate against an elder race with far more advanced technology. This is like saying that your suggestions for Loroi weapons are embarassing, because what if they went up against someone who were effective at combatting those weapons?

I mean, wow, look, every episode the SG-1 team, the most elite and well know SG team, gets themselves into another pickle. Truly, they and the organization they work for must be a bunch of incompetents...

And Star Trek, what a federation, those guys can't build the simplest piece of technology that doesn't malfunction the moment they pass through an "energy cloud", what's going on with that? Are the Star Wars guys the only people who can build reliable technology?

[Dan Wyatt]

Granted I rate both the Loroi anf Umiak as more tactically sound than the Goauld from Stargate... which is admittedly not a high standard to surpass. Those guys were embarassing.

Were they, though? They, in-story, had dominated the galaxy for some time through their current strategies, only ending up in a stale-mate against an elder race with far more advanced technology. This is like saying that your suggestions for Loroi weapons are embarassing, because what if they went up against someone who were effective at combatting those weapons?

I mean, wow, look, every episode the SG-1 team, the most elite and well know SG team, gets themselves into another pickle. Truly, they and the organization they work for must be a bunch of incompetents...

And Star Trek, what a federation, those guys can't build the simplest piece of technology that doesn't malfunction the moment they pass through an "energy cloud", what's going on with that? Are the Star Wars guys the only people who can build reliable technology?

Stargate is retarded, although it's enjoyable.

[Ithekro]

As for evidence of deflector screens, there is at least once show of a Umiak ship bouncing a pulse cannon blast at range: https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider077.html
Possibly here as well, though the angle makes it difficult to see if it was deflected, or if there was a blue explosion: https://well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider082.html

It is possible that Loroi screens are not as powerful as Umiak screens, or they more mitigate damage, rather than deflect it entirely away. We don't have much visual evidence since we only have two instances of Loroi built craft taking hits. The Winter Tide...repeatedly getting hammered with plasma beams, and one of the stations getting hammered with a massive number of missiles at once.

[Bamax]

Science fiction is often about either the 'future' or what if?

Since no one can reliably predict the future, I have more interest in 'what if'.

If I hear about nertial damperners or gravity generators I automatically accept it since we have no known way of explaining it. On the other hand, when real physics plays a role at all, that makes me want to know just what can and cannot be done. Shows just how advanced they are.

For example...to say the Loroi know how to make stufff go boom is an understatement. Assuming they produce a lot of their AM like fuel, they could literally turn entire countries into molten lava.

Imagine a bomb a thousandfold more powerful than our nukes? That's essentially what comes to mind when I heard just what the Lorou harness energywise.

However things are resolved are ultimately up to author. Scifi fictional tech tends to always win out against IRL tech, so if he is using that a lot yeah...there is little more that can be done. Since fiction can be as powerful as one needs it to be. If scifi screens can block stuff...then they block stuff. So be it.

So far the story has been entertaining, mainly due to the intrigue and the plot thickening, along with compelling characters that act as if they were real.

He can resolve the war in a number of ways, I just observed one way through superior tech innovation...which still can be trumped if it goes up against fictional tech.

Fiction tends to win against reality. Has to to some degree or it would not be science fiction.