Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

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icekatze
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Indeed, I did say it was an entirely convoluted plan. As for jumping out the same way you came in, I wasn't sure if the orbital movement of the planet would make the exit vector different enough from the entry vector to throw it off of the ridiculously small sliver window of opportunity. (and this is of course assuming that the Umiak aren't exploiting the gas giant's resources too, which isn't a very good assumption really)

The problem with shooting targets in a stable orbit or patrol craft is that they will detect the weapon launch if nothing else and make some course corrections.

Most mass driver rounds are going to be very hot from the firing process. You could conceivably make a super expensive stealth mass driver round that is made out of space rock and surrounded by a refrigerator sabot which separates after firing and carries all of the heat from the launch with it, but they'd still detect the firing.

They'd also detect any ships jumping into the system and make some basic defensive course changes, or blast them with a laser. In order for that to work they'd have to not detect you jumping into the system or firing somehow. You could conceivably make a sub-luminal warship to launch a sneak attack, but it'd take hundreds of years to arrive, so the war would probably be over by then.

Unfortunately, they don't need to know where the projectiles even are to dodge them. They just need to thrust in a random direction slightly.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Arioch »

Orbital stations and bases are still spacecraft; they have thrusters and can avoid incoming projectiles, if given sufficient warning.

If you didn't detect the ship that launched it, I think mass driver rounds would be difficult to detect by passive sensors, unless you knew what you were looking for. They will give off heat, but against a starfield I don't think this is as easy to detect as Nyrath would have us believe. Active sensors would be harder to defeat, but the range of active radar is probably limited. The problem really is hiding the launching ship.

Something to keep in mind is that a border system is not going to have much in the way of large population centers or other soft targets. These will have long ago moved or been destroyed by raids.
icekatze wrote:As for jumping out the same way you came in, I wasn't sure if the orbital movement of the planet would make the exit vector different enough from the entry vector to throw it off of the ridiculously small sliver window of opportunity.
Yes, good point.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by 088 »

they would indeed be extremely difficult to detect also they wouldn't instantly know you arrived and fired either if your firing point were on the edge of a system it would take several hours for the energy to be detected (the races in outsider seam to lack FTL comms so i also suspect they lack FTL sensors) thus they would detect the jump and firing event only several minutes before the shells would be too close to avoid and even if the jumps were detected by a closer ship it would take the same amount of time for them to warn the targets as it would for the targets to spot the event anyway.

and yes several minutes is kind of a lot of time, but for something that must weigh a lot to move out of the way only with maneuvering thrusters is going to be very difficult.

also whats the max speed of a fighter in outsider?

if its fast enough you could effectively have a rail gun round be guided till a few minutes before impact by strapping several impactors to the hull of a fighter to be released once they get close enough to there target to ensure at least some of them hit.
they would have to release and peel off in enough time for the fighters to change coarse as to not hit there target themselves. they could then go into a breaking maneuver and eventually attack the fleet from behind with normal missiles
(when that one guy in mass effect 2 called Isaac newton the deadliest sob in space he wasn't kidding) X3

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Arioch »

088 wrote:and yes several minutes is kind of a lot of time, but for something that must weigh a lot to move out of the way only with maneuvering thrusters is going to be very difficult.
In order to make a ballistic projectile miss, you only need to alter your projected position by a single ship length. Even with just a few minutes warning, that doesn't take much thrust at all. If you have only 60 seconds of warning, and the target is a 1km long space station, the amount of acceleration you need to make a ballistic projectile miss is:

s = ½at²
a = 2s/t² = 2*1000m/3600s = .5556 m/s² = 0.0567 g

I think 5% of one g is very probably attainable with maneuvering thrusters, even if your space station weighs many thousands of kilotons.
088 wrote:also whats the max speed of a fighter in outsider?
There's no absolute maximum speed (other than the speed of light), but most fighters won't be able to run at maximum acceleration for more than a few hours, so for a 40g fighter accelerating for 2 hours from a standing start, that's 2,822,400 m/s or almost 1% lightspeed. But that's a one-way trip with no way to maneuver or decelerate afterward.
088 wrote:if its fast enough you could effectively have a rail gun round be guided till a few minutes before impact by strapping several impactors to the hull of a fighter to be released once they get close enough to there target to ensure at least some of them hit.
If you want a guided missile, you can just use a guided missile. But even with a running start, jumping into the system at 10% lightspeed (which seems unlikely) you're arriving at the system edge, and it takes a long time to cross that distance to the target. If you came in say at about the orbit of Saturn (~10 AU), and your target is in orbit around Earth (1 AU), that's a distance of 80 light minutes. The target won't detect you for an hour and twenty minutes, but after that he still has some 12 hours to prepare for the arrival of the projectiles before they can arrive at 10% lightspeed.

Even if you somehow have a 90% lightspeed projectile, and you're arriving close behind your light waves, the target still has almost 9 minutes to react from that distance.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by BattleRaptor »

To work out what a loroi/human hybrid ship would look like we have to take modern military ships.


First humans would get the plan for a Loroi spaceship.

Then they would upsize it 20% just because its gotta be bigger then anyone elses.

Then they would realise its far easier and cheaper to make straight plates instead of curved sections of hull that need to fit together perfectly part way though construction.

Then they would remove the 3m wide 2m high walkways from the ship, reducing them to hallways where 2 people can barely squeze past each other and everyone has to walk at a crouch and get constant back pain.

They would then remove everything asthetic or otherwise pleasing, such as ripping out the nice plush form fitting loroi chairs and replacing them with bare bones ass numbing metal framed mass produced by the cheapest bidder crap that still has sharp edges and manages to cut you when you stand up or sit down yet inspection of the chair would fail to find the offending edge.

They would then remove any backup or saftey equipment the Loroi had for keeping people alive, unless its related directly to keeping them alive while they fire the weapons, steer the ship, or command it.. then they will only remove HALF of it.

They would then work out the ammount of crew required to operate it.. half it.. and make that normal staffing level and remove the extra bunks/crew areas.

They would then look at loroi turrets and decide why have 2 guns on each turret when you can have 3.

Then they would fill up all that free space with bigger reactor, thicker armor for the hull, 14 missile tubes, and 22 turrets.
Someone would also point out 2 wave looms are better then one.......
So after another 6 months at the drawing board the design will finaly be done.

The fact it took 5 times the resources and 10 times the cost and 20 times as long to produce compared to a loroi ship of around the same size will be ignored as it can take on 3 enemy ships of equal class and win in simulations.

and it would look something like this.

Image
Last edited by BattleRaptor on Sun Apr 03, 2011 9:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Tamren »

088 wrote:well i don't think the human weapons are quite so inferior after all both sides seam to use missiles a lot and you can achieve some truly massive damage with a mass driver if you use it properly. If the shots are moving fast enough they can have effects similar to a detonating nuclear device tho those speeds are very difficult to reach.
There was a stat sheet posted a long time ago that listed out the various weapons used by the warring parties and humans. Someone probably saved it. It had abstracted values, but humans didn't compare very favourably. Our weapons are not "weak" in a destructive sense. But everyone else has weapons that outrange us by a ridiculous margin. Barring exceptional circumstances we would never be in a position to use them.

@Battleraptor

A good start! :D

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by BattleRaptor »

Actually in the real world... The problem behind projectile weapons is mass/size of propellant.

A ship capable of accurately fireing 2 billion rounds a second of projectiles at 10% light speed of a energy equal to say 1kg of TNT per round could take on and take out a Loroi vessal from 4 light seconds.

Add a fleet of 100 vs a loroi fleet of 100 and they extend the engagement range to around 12 light seconds and efficently would improve because Mutiple loroi ships would be included in the Kill patten unless the Loroi wanted to take your entire fleet on 1 by 1.. which you win anyways.

and only one ton of ammo would provide trillions of rounds.

Any ship with the power and technogly to fire Particle cannons(which is actually a form of railgun) could do it.

Could you imagine being in the ships that detect trillions of tiny rounds comming there way.. only to laugh.. plug in evasive action to the computer.. and the computer spits back IT cant take any, the incomming wall and thats what it would be a wall of fire is to big for you to escape from and to dense for you to manuver around.
Its telling you in under 40 seconds you will die.. and nothing.. nothing at all you can do.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Wintermute »

I cannot believe we are having this discussion again.

:|

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Didn't you hear? Everything old is new again. :lol:

When the terrans can build a ship with more than 2 billion railguns that fire at 10% c, and not cause overheating problems, or energy consumption problems, and have rails long enough to not vaporize the tiny projectiles without causing the ship to mass more than the entire Loroi fleet combined, and their opponents don't just vaporize a hole through the incoming projectiles with their beam weapons, or attack the ship from more than one direction, or have any armor at all to withstand the blast of 1 kg ((it took over 180kg to blast a non-crippling hole in the USS Cole, which did not have armor 3 generations more advanced)), or employ a wave loom device... Then maybe they'll have a problem.

It would probably be easier to put 2 billion blasters on a ship, but since even the biggest ships only have at most a couple dozen at a time, you'd need at least 50 million ships worth of production to pull something like that off.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by BattleRaptor »

I dont surpose pointing out that the blasters in Outsiders are actually railguns?
and that they shoot particles with mass, not almost massless photons.
They need to not only accelerate it but to contain it.. which also causes problems the faster they accelerate it.
Which assuming 100% efficently means they only get half of the energy back as destructive force on target they put into it, assuming zero "Beam" diffusion.
OR that there is the wave loom which is effectively the same thing... a shotgun that spreads a massive beam across a very large section of space of particles which happen to have mass.. and do there damage because they have been accelerated to near light speed?
Imagine the same powerplants that provide to the power for such an inefficent weapon, being used on weapons which only REAL problem is energy consumption even today 2011, with the required Superconductors for such a rapid fire weapon exisiting today aswell, with the only problem being once again energy consumption to keep them near absoloute zero.
Yes lets take all the fantasmial beams and not blink.. but damn near have a a stroke if someone suggests "energy" weapons are not as superior as sci-fi makes them out to be.
Of course.. if you were to ask WHY they are superior considering there power requirements and inefficentcies..... they would talk about improvements in energy generation humans are bound to make... even thou it doesnt exist yet.

The diffrence between a nuclear propelled colbalt rod and a stone thrown by a neanderthal doesnt happen to be How it works, just the ammount of energy thats been PUT behind it.


Lets also due to the fact our arugment holds no water convert it to a strawman argument and suggest 2 billion rail guns need to be added to a ship since apparently humans lost the ablity to create rapidfire weapons sometime after developing real ones that could fire thousands of rounds a second up to hundred of thousands of rounds, to even MILLIONS OF ROUNDS.

200 years later traveling the stars and rapidfire weapons is a forgotten art apparently.

I would also point out that the 1kg of TNT and AN ammount of c-4 equal in energy to the TNT- the c4 shatters concreate and cuts steel, while the TNT only pits concreate and bends steel.

The cole was hit by a slow expanding explosive such as TNT or even fertilizer and the actual hull bent and fatgiued before giving way to the blast deflecting the majority of damage, had it been c-4 the hull would have been cut though, likely the keel snaped and many many more people would have died.
Last edited by BattleRaptor on Sun Apr 03, 2011 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

50 million ships.... ((not counting cool-down times))

How it works is actually kind of important. It is the whole reason humans aren't using blasters or plasma foci.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by BattleRaptor »

You know
400 years ago if you had asked a musketman if he thought it was possible to make a gun that could fire millions of rounds a second he would have called you crazy.

and if the internet had existed back then he would log on, goto a forum and then make snide remarks under the name of IceKatze.

:)

Of course I would love to hear your explanation on why advances in 200 years that went from few rounds a mintue to 80 rounds a mintue... to millions of rounds a second in 2011 in some bulletstorm versions...

Why Projectile weapons wont continue to improve at the same rate over the next 200 years....

But instead go back to single shot.

I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR IT.

I really really would.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by sunphoenix »

Huh? Ahem... how about no snide comments either way?

50 million ships!!! Wow... even the Zentradai Grand Fleet was only 4.8 million strong... that boggles the mind!
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Ad Hominim, classy. ;)

You would need more than 20 billion railguns because of one thing: waste heat. Firing a projectile at 10%c is a whole different story than firing a bullet a thousand miles per hour.

Last I checked, metal storm holds the fastest fire rate on a gun via technicality, and even that only has millions of rounds per minute, with multiple barrels, and each projectile carries it's own propulsion mechanism, and it still has problems with the barrels being unable to withstand the pressure or friction, and no good reload mechanism to continue firing after just a few seconds. There, you wanted to hear it :)

1 kg of TNT worth of hypervelocity round would vaporize on the whipple shield portion of the armor and then scratch the second layer a bit, maybe. Especially given the relationship between kinetic energy and momentum at high velocities.

((Cant I just have a little bit of snide? Its not like I'm calling names or anything))

Edit: At the risk of sounding like a huge nerd, has anyone ever seen the old 80s sci-fi Earth Star Voyager? They have a pretty good example of how you might use a railgun effectively. Spoiler: (Trick the enemy into thinking you are surrendering, then fire as they are pulling up to dock)

Edit - Edit: Rather than just being a big ol meanie pants. Here's some concept art of a transitional Terran warship with some innovations from Loroi tech added in. Mjolnir has been dropped, they added some minor screens and "semi-reactionless field fins" on the back.
Image
Last edited by icekatze on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Arioch »

BattleRaptor wrote:and if the internet had existed back then he would log on, goto a forum and then make snide remarks under the name of IceKatze.
Please argue the point and not the person.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by BattleRaptor »

Go look up REAL world railguns before you argue when you dont know anything about them.
One of the primary advantages of railguns is the round suffers NO FRICTION except agasint air in atmosphere.
They have other problems but friction isnt it..at least when they work properly.

Incidently some plans for railguns suggest oscilating the magnetic fields rapidly to superheat the projectile untill it turns into plasma and then accelerating the plasma, creating a ball of charged ions.. incidently damn close to outsider blasters except the accelerated plasma is self containing like ball lightning.. so its a ball rather then a beam.

Metal storm arrays fire millions of rounds a second.. infact technicly they could fire billions if you want to make a big enough array but as far as im aware no one has.
I stated that the Problem with projectile weapons competing with energy ones is lack of power, that for the same ammount of energy such as giving a terran ship a Loroi powerplant and you can in theory surpass energy weapons in effectiveness.

You have provided nothing to argue this.
you ignored it.
Instead aruging that the thought experiment isnt possible...
Its not surposed to be.. its a therorectical what IF.
If we were worried about complete realism we wouldnt be using the outsider universe as the location for it.

Now to give you a real world workable example of accelerating billions of projectiles in under a second and capable of doing it TODAY.

send up one ton blocks of manure.
Drop a 1 gigaton nuke directly behind it and detonate.

Have 100 of them... and you have yourself a expanding wall of deadly POOP.

I call them STINKS
SHIP TARGETED IRRIDATED NONGUIDED KINETIC SHIT.

and as silly as it is, it would work, but without being able to target them you would have to use thousands of tons of shit and nukes to cause any real damage to Ships a light second out and most likely be gaps not covered.

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by bunnyboy »

Thinking. 36 barreled prototype got 1.62 RPM. That means 750 rounds per barrel at second.

For 200 years from today, I think 2 000 round per barrel on second is ok.
Put 10 x 10 barrels on together.
Now 8 barrergroups are put together in circle to one guntower, which has one cooling & computing system.
One battlestation/turret 3 has guntowers.
The ship has 22 turrets.
Which makes 66 million launch in 5 seconds.
Now, any launched round is actually warhead, containing 20 000 shrapnels.

That makes 1 320 billion projectiles. And that would be scary. :shock: Even if it is only capaple to scrape the painting.

==============================================
Edit: I just decided that I will never start a war against BattleRaptor. I couldn't never get my shapeships clean enough again after that kind of inhuman weapon.
Last edited by bunnyboy on Sun Apr 03, 2011 6:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Railguns have friction and heat, and even if they didn't have rail to projectile friction, they would then have arcing, which would vaporize things.
The rails and projectiles must be built from strong conductive materials; the rails need to survive the violence of an accelerating projectile, and heating due to the large currents and friction involved. The recoil force exerted on the rails is equal and opposite to the force propelling the projectile.
Reply to Electromagnetic Force Law Controversy
Massive amounts of heat are created by the electricity flowing through the rails, as well as by the friction of the projectile leaving the device. The heat created by this friction itself can cause thermal expansion of the rails and projectile, further increasing the frictional heat. This causes three main problems: melting of equipment, decreased safety of personnel, and detection by enemy forces. As briefly discussed above, the stresses involved in firing this sort of device require an extremely heat-resistant material. Otherwise the rails, barrel, and all equipment attached would melt or be irreparably damaged.
In practice the rails are, with most designs of railgun, subject to erosion due to each launch; and projectiles can be subject to some degree of ablation also, and this can limit railgun life, in some cases severely.
powerlabs.org

Unless it is contained by some kind of handwaved super-science -like the Umiak and Loroi's plasma focus are- plasma balls are not self contained. They will continue to expand until they are a relatively harmless cloud of charged particles that will likely be stopped by an electromagnetic screen.

Metal Storm's 36 barrel prototype only ever shot 180 rounds. 5 rounds per barrel. You would need 200 thousand barrels to actually fire a million rounds. That is why the million rounds per minute firing rate is a technicality.

The analogy of metal storm weapons is more applicable to a torpedo swarm. You could dump as many torpedoes as you want out the side of your ship in just a few seconds, but like metal storm, they need to have their own propulsion. It has been said that given the state of point defense weaponry, the Umiak are the only race with the industrial capacity to make that work offensively.

Power is very important on space ships yes, but I have not argued the power requirement aspect because it is simply not important to this discussion. 10%c is still a snails pace compared to beam weapons, and even if you assumed equal power outputs, physics doesn't take favorites when it comes to theoretical limitations.

If you will recall, I did run the thought experiment for the sake of argument. After crunching the numbers, I came up with a ship that was as massive as 50 million of its opponents. Sure, it was an interesting what if, but it didn't seem to practical from the perspective of the Terrans that exist in Outsider, a work of reasonably self-consistent fiction.

Send up 1 ton blocks of manure, detonate gigaton nukes directly behind it, watch as the enemy fleet moves out of the way. Space is big, really, really big. (I wouldn't know where to begin calculating the momentum loss from self collision in a manure storm)

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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by bunnyboy »

icekatze wrote:Metal Storm's 36 barrel prototype only ever shot 180 rounds. 5 rounds per barrel. You would need 200 thousand barrels to actually fire a million rounds. That is why the million rounds per minute firing rate is a technicality.
ok. I got little numberblind. :lol: In my numbers, even if 1 round is only 5 cm long (surely not enough to contain 20000 shrapnels & propellant), the barrel length, would be 500 meter.
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Re: Concept Fanart of Future Terran Ship Designs

Post by Karst45 »

BattleRaptor wrote: Of course I would love to hear your explanation on why advances in 200 years that went from few rounds a mintue to 80 rounds a mintue... to millions of rounds a second in 2011 in some bulletstorm versions...
The 1 million BPS gun is actually a 36 barrel firing 5 bullet each, there is no saying how long it could fire. in anyway it is not firing one millions bullet per second, it has the potential to it but feeding ammo and overheating might cause it to stop firing before it reach 1 millions bullets.

Also for you explaination. yes weapon do evolve so do defense/armor. at some point you could shoot as much ammo as you would like none would do any damage. That why you go for more powerful weapon and ammo. They may also be more expensive. making you forget about shooting as much ammo as you can in favor of a more precise slower firing weapon.
icekatze wrote:Edit: At the risk of sounding like a huge nerd, has anyone ever seen the old 80s sci-fi Earth Star Voyager? They have a pretty good example of how you might use a railgun effectively. Spoiler: (Trick the enemy into thinking you are surrendering, then fire as they are pulling up to dock)
It seem unlikely in outsider. they prefer to blast thing then ask question later or never :) (as you could see with the bellarmine demise)
icekatze wrote:Edit - Edit: Rather than just being a big ol meanie pants. Here's some concept art of a transitional Terran warship with some innovations from Loroi tech added in. Mjolnir has been dropped, they added some minor screens and "semi-reaction less field fins" on the back.
Image
I like the design. bulky like the human ship but still with loroi feature. i would have make it longer as the bell is kind of "nail" looking.

still on the working but you get a general idea of the shape. turret will be set on top, hangar door under (front an back)
SpoilerShow
Image
BattleRaptor wrote: send up one ton blocks of manure.
Drop a 1 gigaton nuke directly behind it and detonate.

Have 100 of them... and you have yourself a expanding wall of deadly POOP.


Even if you replaced the Manure with something more solid that could cause damage to the ship, it highly inefficient. Think of the price of 100 nuke + the propelled material and that only to attempt to damage a single ship. And don't tell this could cover enough area to take out the entire fleet. It it would the umiak would already have done that. Even their AM missile are useless and are mainly used as distraction.


Space is vast quite vast. considering we fire at 300 000m (cause closer than that they already are shooting us. and a bullet attain 10%c 30 000m/s it would take 10 second for the bullets to reach the target.
During that time lets say the ship have a 20g acceleration and he moving only on it plane (not away nor toward the ship.
You would need to spray an area of (assuming i have the right formula; (AT)² / 2 were A is constant acceleration in M/s T is the time in second, that give the "r" (1920km) of a circle so 3,1416x1920²=a shitload of km... can someone check my formula an calcul?)

anyway ill wait until my calcul are check cause that give more than 30 million kilometer to cover. must have messed up with a coma somewere. but it still way too much space to cover with bullet. and that make it quite expensive way to use.


if you just focus on the "stealth" of the weapon and it deadly kinetic power, you can load up a AM charge in it and make so that it can change trajectory at the end. giving a little more of a hard time avoiding the projectile, but just a little.

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