Page 153: You've got Mail!

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Whale
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Whale »

dragoongfa wrote:It depends, the Historians are at the tech level where they have ansible communications:

12 | Spacetime Mastery: reactionless drive, ansible, hyperspace metrics, virtual consciousness

If this is Historian Shenanigans then they may have sent a message that is faster than light and non interceptible by either of the two combatants.
It would still have to be in a form that the tablet can receive.
Arioch wrote:In 2001 when page 8 was first created, there was no such thing as an iPad (or an iPhone), and what we now call a tablet was called a PDA, and the most popular one was by a company called Palm that no one has heard of anymore.
Heh, has something changed regarding the latest plot point and the device itself over the years due to that?

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Arioch
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Arioch »

Whale wrote:Heh, has something changed regarding the latest plot point and the device itself over the years due to that?
Nah, just saying that at the time I thought I was being really clever by calling it a "pad" (this being a play on "PDA"). Little did I know that 9 years later Apple would spoil the whole thing. And so it galls me a little bit when people refer to it as an "IPAD".

In case you haven't guessed, I'm not really a fan of Apple or its products (or some of its customers, truth be told). ;)

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icekatze
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Detecting emissions is a relationship between the strength of the source and the sensitivity of the receiver. I would wager that if the Umiak are still dealing with the space station, there's a decent chance they aren't even looking too closely at the debris. If the station is totally finished... well, I suppose it might depend on the composition and disposition of the Umiak deep jump fleet, whether they're going to able, or even try, to search for a needle in a haystack.

Catoblepas
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Catoblepas »

Luckily none of the crewmembers have any brain implants. Reading Revelation Space has trained me to be highly suspicious of any AI that can casually copy itself about.

novius
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by novius »

First, obviously the Historian AI managed to decrypt the tablet, figure out communication frequences and protocols on an alien device and whatnot. That might be reasonable. But it begs the question... did it share its knowledge with the Loroi? If it did, Beryl would have been untruthful when she referred to the devices as "unknown".

Second, the AI can "fake" being in standby and be aware of the surroundings. It waited until Alex was alone. And I'm quite sure it would have checked for hidden cameras and listening devices as well. Good thing to know.

Third, how did the Historian AI end up on the shuttle, too? I'm sure it wasn't on the original passenger roster.

Fourth, we can be pretty sure the AI already learned everything worthwile about the humans. It's reasonable to assume that it downloaded everything from the tablet, and others, and maybe what remained of Bellarmine computer core, if it went to work back on the Tempest.

Yep, it more and more looks like the Historians have their own agenda and maybe some "helpers" inside the rest of the Union.

The contents of the message? It could be a warning - either cryptic or a clear one - that things are not as they seem to be, or it could be an offer Alex would be hard pressed to refuse, and one the Loroi shouldn't know about.

In addition, the AI seems to put a lot of trust that Alex's Lotai will hold for the time being. What use would be a clandestine message if any Loroi could lift it from his mind?

Arent
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Arent »

novius wrote: Third, how did the Historian AI end up on the shuttle, too? I'm sure it wasn't on the original passenger roster.
That's the actual question. And did you notice how it inconspicuously hid in the corner of the previous Pages :shock:

Krulle
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Krulle »

man_of_foul_tofu wrote:For those who want to be inspired to check up the 'trashcan' in its first appearance, check here
Better view on page 65.
You can see the "handles" are slightly differently coloured. That may be a trick due to a different lighing though, but it got me asking how many of those "crude containers" are on the Loroi-Union (and possibly Umiak Hierarchy) ships in storage, forgotten?
But on closer inspection, the handle also has a different form. The original one on the bridge went more like a paper-clip back down again, in the middle.
This current one does not.
So, how many of those things are flying around in known space and beyond, possibly even on Earth?

"crude vessel" may therefore be a reference to the age of the device, and how sturdy they are compared to more modern state-of-the-art Historian personality construct supporting architecture.
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charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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SVlad
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by SVlad »

So is this bucket actual computer running ambassador AI application?
I've thought this bucket is just a holographic projector and an actual AI application runs on server on board of Prophet's Reason.
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Werra
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Werra »

Prophets Reason is in-system currently, isn't it? That changes a few things, of course.

folti
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by folti »

novius wrote:First, obviously the Historian AI managed to decrypt the tablet, figure out communication frequences and protocols on an alien device and whatnot. That might be reasonable. But it begs the question... did it share its knowledge with the Loroi? If it did, Beryl would have been untruthful when she referred to the devices as "unknown".
Third, how did the Historian AI end up on the shuttle, too? I'm sure it wasn't on the original passenger roster.
Let's assume nope. For all we know, it was loaded to the shuttle back before the battle, to be shipped over to Mozin's ship, but the sudden appearance of the Umiak fleet scrapped those plans, and it sat in the shuttle since then, halfway forgotten. Which would suited the local Loroi command (Stillstorm and Tempo) well, as it was cut off from the ship's more sensitive systems.
Second, the AI can "fake" being in standby and be aware of the surroundings. It waited until Alex was alone. And I'm quite sure it would have checked for hidden cameras and listening devices as well. Good thing to know.
Even if it's checked for, there is no reason the Loroi could recognize every part's true purpose. Some sensors, like microphones can be a secondary functions of other parts, if you allow lesser resolutions. Like it couldn't eavesdrop on anything happening far away but at least can tell that there is some activity around it.

As for being in standby, well, they could have constructed it in a way that it'd shutdown completely when it detects scanning attempts, but otherwise have a subsystem running low level surveillance on it's surroundings all the time, waking the higher levels when it sees fit.
Fourth, we can be pretty sure the AI already learned everything worthwile about the humans. It's reasonable to assume that it downloaded everything from the tablet, and others, and maybe what remained of Bellarmine computer core, if it went to work back on the Tempest.
Depends how long it had access to the salvaged stuff. Loroi don't give access to their communications systems to these AI's for a good reason, but if it have been stored next to the salvaged PADs and stuff for a long time, it could have done more than bit of snooping around. Remember, the current shuttle flight took a few hours since leaving the Tempest already.
Yep, it more and more looks like the Historians have their own agenda and maybe some "helpers" inside the rest of the Union.
Everyone has an agenda.
The contents of the message? It could be a warning - either cryptic or a clear one - that things are not as they seem to be, or it could be an offer Alex would be hard pressed to refuse, and one the Loroi shouldn't know about.

In addition, the AI seems to put a lot of trust that Alex's Lotai will hold for the time being. What use would be a clandestine message if any Loroi could lift it from his mind?
Risks have to be taken.
SVlad wrote:So is this bucket actual computer running ambassador AI application?
I've thought this bucket is just a holographic projector and an actual AI application runs on server on board of Prophet's Reason.
Not giving access to your ships' comms system to foreign entities with unknown, but more than likely way better tech than you, is a sane and cautious approach to these things. So it's self contained AI in a can, with limited resources.

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SVlad
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by SVlad »

folti wrote: Not giving access to your ships' comms system to foreign entities with unknown, but more than likely way better tech than you, is a sane and cautious approach to these things. So it's self contained AI in a can, with limited resources.
Passing a byte stream through without decoding it is generally more secure than keeping an working alien computer on board.

Also, ambassador said it is
personality construct transmitted from Captain Mozin's courier into this crude container.
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dragoongfa
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by dragoongfa »

SpoilerShow
Watch the patreon spoilers people

novius
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by novius »

Arent wrote:
novius wrote: Third, how did the Historian AI end up on the shuttle, too? I'm sure it wasn't on the original passenger roster.
That's the actual question. And did you notice how it inconspicuously hid in the corner of the previous Pages :shock:
Either it can move by itself - and the Loroi don't know about it since it was carried around on the Tempest - or there is someone in league with the Historians who secreted the "can" onto the shuttle. And said someone would have to be on the shuttle, too, since the original plan was to transfer to the Clearbrook and from there to Seren. And I don't think the AI planned to be just there for a round trip in the shuttle.

Either way, the Historians do seem to play their cards close to their proverbial chests.

folti
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by folti »

SVlad wrote:
folti wrote: Not giving access to your ships' comms system to foreign entities with unknown, but more than likely way better tech than you, is a sane and cautious approach to these things. So it's self contained AI in a can, with limited resources.
Passing a byte stream through without decoding it is generally more secure than keeping an working alien computer on board.
You have to unpack the stream to turn it into audio/video on both end. Which would allow the other side to try to inject data to exploit vulnerabilities. Also, in that case you can't control what resources the AI on the other ship uses, which could include them hacking into the other ship's systems and use everything too. Or pay off the crew to allow it. Mozin and crew are mercenaries after all ...
Also, ambassador said it is
personality construct transmitted from Captain Mozin's courier into this crude container.
Construct under transfer is not active, and cannot be ran by any systems it passes through. Just like any executable you download from the net is not runnable by your router, or any other devices it passes through net. Or even by your desktop, unless it's been specially constructed for that scenario.

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RedDwarfIV
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by RedDwarfIV »

I'm thinking based on the Dramatis Personae that the Emissary may have uploaded itself into the Pad.

Yes, as some have noted, the Emissary claimed to be being transmitted to the container from Mozin's ship, but even if that were true (Historians would never lie!) that doesn't preclude copying itself to the container and from there to the Pad. It could have done both.

In terms of narrative, having an AI in your PDA is more interesting than just having a PDA (that seemed to be mostly for ship operations duties, for a ship that no longer exists.)
If every cloud had a silver lining, there would be a lot more plane crashes.

Krulle
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by Krulle »

Onaiom wrote:The dramatis personae was sneakily updated some time ago :
Historian Emissary, a virtual personality construct sent on behalf of the mysterious Historians to communicate with other races and collect information. Remarkably flexible as to what kind of hardware it can inhabit, the Emissary transmits itself from device to device as the situation demands. Unsure of the full capabilities or motives of such constructs, the Loroi are careful to restrict access of their own computer systems.
Well, this part was already present in 2009, 9 1/2 years ago:
https://web.archive.org/web/20090626123 ... /cast.html (snapshot from 26 June 2009).

Sneakily added right at the start of the comic.
Kikitik-27 apppeared sometime later.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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CrimsonFALKE
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Arioch wrote:
CrimsonFALKE wrote:why would an alien construct wish to load up into an IPAD?
I doubt very much one would. Luckily in 2160, the evil organization known as Apple no longer exists. This particular device was manufactured by a firm called Robin Instruments.

In 2001 when page 8 was first created, there was no such thing as an iPad (or an iPhone), and what we now call a tablet was called a PDA, and the most popular one was by a company called Palm that no one has heard of anymore.
I remember the palm damn I feel like a Boomer. Still why does it want to be in a dated device unless it needs some bro time with Alex.

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CrimsonFALKE
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by CrimsonFALKE »

Arioch wrote:
sunphoenix wrote:"A tight fit, especially around the chest..."

Is Alex simply so much bigger than the Loroi females or do they purpose build in a subtle sports-bra in the fabric for added support? Since females are more likely the ones to be wearing spacesuits? Kinda makes sense...
Even if they are roughly the same height, a female will tend to have wider hips but a much smaller chest (even with the addition of breasts) than a male.
A woman's center of gravity is the hip and buttocks not her chest

novius
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by novius »

CrimsonFALKE wrote:
Arioch wrote:
CrimsonFALKE wrote:why would an alien construct wish to load up into an IPAD?
I doubt very much one would. Luckily in 2160, the evil organization known as Apple no longer exists. This particular device was manufactured by a firm called Robin Instruments.

In 2001 when page 8 was first created, there was no such thing as an iPad (or an iPhone), and what we now call a tablet was called a PDA, and the most popular one was by a company called Palm that no one has heard of anymore.
I remember the palm damn I feel like a Boomer. Still why does it want to be in a dated device unless it needs some bro time with Alex.
Still I think a full-fledged AI would need more processing power than a mobile device which is just designed to display data and be connected to a remote server would offer.

Though, at the "angry walk out" of the AI in http://www.well-of-souls.com/outsider/outsider065.html it said they'll "speak again, soon enough" - it's reasonable to assume that it planned its actions from the very start, and that includes scanning and downloading data from all functional human equipment while still residing on the Tempest.

folti
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Re: Page 153: You've got Mail!

Post by folti »

novius wrote:Still I think a full-fledged AI would need more processing power than a mobile device which is just designed to display data and be connected to a remote server would offer.
Nothing would stop it to send only a cut down version of itself though, that can fit and run on the device at a reasonable speed.

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