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[Trantor]

... and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.

That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes.

I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

I don't think it's that much of a coincidence. Most other local species appear reasonably readable, enough so that Alex was first thought to be actively blocking, the Soia eventually engineered at least one telepathic species, presumably not reaching such a high level of development by accident, and the Golim are so easily influenced that they're overwhelmed by the presence of a Loroi. Perhaps the Soia themselves had more primitive abilities, noticed that humans had almost no telepathic presence, and chose to use their latest bioengineering project in progress to tinker with brain structures to learn more about psi talents (maybe our lack of ability/presence shook some basic assumptions in their understanding of psi, maybe it just got them wondering). Humans are just unusually un-telepathic, and the Loroi are unusually telepathic because they were a work in progress at a time when the Soia were experimenting with telepathy.

The Neridi didn't like the tall, hairy newcomers getting such an upgrade, and started a revolt that destroyed the empire.

Which doesn't quite explain why the Loroi were designed so morphologically similar to humans. If humanities mental characteristics that result in Lotai have nothing to do with telepathy, then there wouldn't be much reason to design Loroi after humans. And the Loroi were spread out across to many planets (three, though probably more population centers that got wiped out) for them to have just been some tinkered beta version.

... and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.

That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes.

I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.

I think it was Loroi propaganda that they were trying to put forth that they ARE the Soia, and thus have a right to rule the galaxy.

Naturally, a bunch of anatomically identical humans appearing out of nowhere and predating the Loroi, indicating that they're an artificial race derived from some backwater monkies sorta squashes that theory.

[NOMAD]

Humans are just unusually un-telepathic, and the Loroi are unusually telepathic because they were a work in progress at a time when the Soia were experimenting with telepathy.

Which doesn't quite explain why the Loroi were designed so morphologically similar to humans. If humanities mental characteristics that result in Lotai have nothing to do with telepathy, then there wouldn't be much reason to design Loroi after humans. And the Loroi were spread out across to many planets (three, though probably more population centers that got wiped out) for them to have just been some tinkered beta version.

well look at eh planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.

... and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.

That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes.

or to keep the only Telepathic resistance experiment separate from each the telepathic one in order to see the effect on other susceptible races (IE sorta like having a magnetics R/D lab and computer labs on opposite side of a research base, to keep both work isolated for interfering with each other but the basis ( mag fields and magnetic materials) are used in both techs/research.)

I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.

I think it was Loroi propaganda that they were trying to put forth that they ARE the Soia, and thus have a right to rule the galaxy.

Naturally, a bunch of anatomically identical humans appearing out of nowhere and predating the Loroi, indicating that they're an artificial race derived from some backwater monkies sorta squashes that theory.[/quote]

Yes, but faith can blind people ( and Alien in this case) to the whole truth. You never know how much religion can change what really happened.

SIDE NOTE: the Loroi lego criuser thread was updated, with photos of my lego Arrow fighter. I would really appriecate some critic of my work . . . pls

[fredgiblet]

I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.

Your answer lies here if you haven't seen it yet.

[fredgiblet]

it's very unlikely that I will ever sit down again with a group of in-the-flesh people to play a pen and paper RPG.

Choice or circumstance?

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

well look at eh planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.

Convergent evolution seems to be a kind of an irresponsible theory when you DO have a precursor civilization that dabbled in genetic engineering. THAT'S a perfectly valid explanation for something that really should be implausible (and what the wide variaty of life in the Outsider universe suggests is highly unlikely).

And the Soia engineering the loroi to morphically mimic humanity doesn't provide any explanation as to why humans are so resistant to mind reading. Unless again, it's all bloody coincidence.

That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes.

or to keep the only Telepathic resistance experiment separate from each the telepathic one in order to see the effect on other susceptible races (IE sorta like having a magnetics R/D lab and computer labs on opposite side of a research base, to keep both work isolated for interfering with each other but the basis ( mag fields and magnetic materials) are used in both techs/research.)

Except there's no Soia archeological presence on the planet earth to suggest they actually based research here. Also, don't the Barsam, Neridi and the Loroi all share a similar biochemistry connected by the fact that they were probably engineered life forms?*

*The Nibiren's similarity to the Barsam seems uncannily similar to the human similarity to the Loroi. That seems to tie into the genetic adaptions.

Yes, but faith can blind people ( and Alien in this case) to the whole truth. You never know how much religion can change what really happened.

The Loroi having face in being Soia is only half of it. The other half is that they want to convince OTHER Races that they have a right to rule.

[bunnyboy]

Aside from the obvious fallacy of not having hit points based on HEALTH, it doesn't make sense in game terms either... it makes HT useless except in the few cases where fatigue matters (e.g., spellcasting), and a fighter character need only place points in ST and DX. Very silly.

Actually it makes more sense this way. With big strength you have more mass to withstand damage but you could still get tired easily.
And there lot of small powerhouses with very little of strength, but stamina to go on days.
Also, building strength with expense of health is somewhat dangerous.

"Ironically, your character did survived the combat, but died on [some medical problem]."

[Mjolnir]

Which doesn't quite explain why the Loroi were designed so morphologically similar to humans. If humanities mental characteristics that result in Lotai have nothing to do with telepathy, then there wouldn't be much reason to design Loroi after humans. And the Loroi were spread out across to many planets (three, though probably more population centers that got wiped out) for them to have just been some tinkered beta version.

No, it means they only had the same reasons they had to design the Barsam after the Nibiren, or the Neridi after whatever their prototype was. They were going around making Soia-Liron replicas of other species...started doing so with humans for the same reasons they did it with all the others, experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing. And who says they were unfinished when the Soia empire fell?

well look at eh planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea :oops: . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.

Convergence happens, but the similarity goes far beyond convergence...they're identical down to minor facial muscles and social behaviors, and a variety of other little details we only have because we descended from ancestors who developed a certain way in a certain environment. You're talking about a continuous chain of convergences all along their ancestry back to simple animals, including variations driven by chance instead of external forces. A bipedal form is not unlikely, a distinct head with a face of some sort on the front is not unlikely, a human replica is absurdly unlikely. And for multiple species with the same biochemistry to develop completely different body structures and "converge" with different alien species...

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

No, it means they only had the same reasons they had to design the Barsam after the Nibiren, or the Neridi after whatever their prototype was. They were going around making Soia-Liron replicas of other species...started doing so with humans for the same reasons they did it with all the others, experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing. And who says they were unfinished when the Soia empire fell?

See, now this is actually the EXACT kind of thing that I was talking about.

-Humanity has unusual trait with regards to telepathy (Species wide Lotai)
-Soia expand on unusual trait to make hyper effective telepathic traits, which they put into the Soia-lorin copy of humanity they engineer, the Loroi
-Humans species wide Lotai render them highly resistant/immune to telepathic scanning/probing.

This is what I said.

[Darth Cloaked Guy]

Outsider is the only comic that is worth this sort of wait.

[Voitan]

experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing.

I think it's apt to say every species so far save the Loroi, have a lack of talent in regards to psychic ability.

As proof, the Loroi point to their telepathic ability, which no other known race possesses

So it isn't our lack of talent, because many other species also lack psychic ability, that drew the Soia's interest, it's probably something like this:

Humanity has an immature psychic potential, but it's closed/looping in on itself, kind of like some residual mutation that hasn't developed fully. It's useless to us, save for a few individuals in a population of billions that weakly express this talent.

The Soia find this odd anomaly, and tamper with it to finally get a psychic species, the Loroi.

But the ability that allows the Loroi to reach and touch the thoughts of others still fails to send or receive psychic signals to and from Humanity, as though they were some psychic faraday cage.

[NOMAD]

No, it means they only had the same reasons they had to design the Barsam after the Nibiren, or the Neridi after whatever their prototype was. They were going around making Soia-Liron replicas of other species...started doing so with humans for the same reasons they did it with all the others, experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing. And who says they were unfinished when the Soia empire fell?

But what was the ultimate reason for all the altering and genetic engineering of similar species: A) to incorporate the various traits into themselves ( unlikely) B) To experiment with various races to create a perfect sentient race C) To ensure their own dominance within their own empire ( IE engineering a warrior race ?)

well look at the planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.

Convergence happens, but the similarity goes far beyond convergence...they're identical down to minor facial muscles and social behaviors, and a variety of other little details we only have because we descended from ancestors who developed a certain way in a certain environment. You're talking about a continuous chain of convergences all along their ancestry back to simple animals, including variations driven by chance instead of external forces. A bipedal form is not unlikely, a distinct head with a face of some sort on the front is not unlikely, a human replica is absurdly unlikely. And for multiple species with the same biochemistry to develop completely different body structures and "converge" with different alien species...

I concede the point, too many coincidence for it not to be random. But why employ bipedal forms on most of the Soia-Liron races, if not for an extended design ( given the advantages of the form, better mobility and advanced tool usage etc ).

[Mjolnir]

See, now this is actually the EXACT kind of thing that I was talking about.

-Humanity has unusual trait with regards to telepathy (Species wide Lotai)
-Soia expand on unusual trait to make hyper effective telepathic traits, which they put into the Soia-lorin copy of humanity they engineer, the Loroi
-Humans species wide Lotai render them highly resistant/immune to telepathic scanning/probing.

This is what I said.

And it still doesn't appear to be what I just said. What I'm saying is that humanity doesn't have any telepathic traits to expand on. They're not resistant to Loroi telepathy, they just almost totally lack any sort of either sending or receiving ability.

I think it's apt to say every species so far save the Loroi, have a lack of talent in regards to psychic ability.

No, they all passively transmit, and at least some unconsciously receive. The Golim are such strong receivers that they are overwhelmed by the presence of a Loroi.

So it isn't our lack of talent, because many other species also lack psychic ability, that drew the Soia's interest, it's probably something like this:

They lack functional high level telepathy. Telesense senses something most intelligent species do unconsciously send. Evidently, humans lack even that.

Humanity has an immature psychic potential, but it's closed/looping in on itself, kind of like some residual mutation that hasn't developed fully. It's useless to us, save for a few individuals in a population of billions that weakly express this talent.

The Soia find this odd anomaly, and tamper with it to finally get a psychic species, the Loroi.

But the ability that allows the Loroi to reach and touch the thoughts of others still fails to send or receive psychic signals to and from Humanity, as though they were some psychic faraday cage.

This only seems a more elaborate and complicated (and much more vague) explanation with no additional explanatory power. The simplest answer is that we just don't have as much telepathic ability as most species. We don't have a fancy Lotai any more than the Historian AI does.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

And it still doesn't appear to be what I just said. What I'm saying is that humanity doesn't have any telepathic traits to expand on. They're not resistant to Loroi telepathy, they just almost totally lack any sort of either sending or receiving ability.

Now this is just semantics I'm not sure we're really in any kind of position to judge whether or not human Lotai falls under the spectrum of telepathic abilities, or is simply a matter of humanity not having ANY telepathic out put. We don't know the exact mechanics of the telepathy or the Lotai (hence the Loroi demanding to know how Alex's Lotai worked).

The one reason I might be more inclined to think there's a more active connection between Lotai and the other spectrum of telepathic abilities is that Lotai traits ARE present within the Loroi population. This suggests to me that human Lotai was more than just funky example for the Soia to look at to figure out how a TOTALLY non telepath works. I think some kind of human mental element got introduced into the Loroi to make them telepaths that as a byproduct left Lotai traits in their gene pool.

[Voitan]

This only seems a more elaborate and complicated (and much more vague) explanation with no additional explanatory power. The simplest answer is that we just don't have as much telepathic ability as most species. We don't have a fancy Lotai any more than the Historian AI does.

I think just leaving at humanity having not as much telepathic ability leaves much to be desired as an explanation.

That is what is obvious to the reader. The reader will want to know exactly why however, and why the Soia chose a nascent humanity.

[Grayhome]

There is another explanation, perhaps whoever created the Loroi did not want them reading Human minds.

Humanity is contagious, after all... mwa hah ha ha haaa!

[Ktrain]

There is another explanation, perhaps whoever created the Loroi did not want them reading Human minds.

Humanity is contagious, after all... mwa hah ha ha haaa!

(Read the last panel...)

[TrashMan]

arioch: i was just nitpicking there, i like filling in the details, making it accurate, and is it that strange that loroi have a higher racial template 'cost' compared to humans? they are equal or better across the scale...they even have the superior ego to go with it. *grin*

the devil is in the details, as the story goes.

Ahh...the "perfect race" thing. I know people who hate all elves as soon as they hear about them somewhere, because they hate "perfect" races with a passion. Go figure...

[TrashMan]

See, now this is actually the EXACT kind of thing that I was talking about.

-Humanity has unusual trait with regards to telepathy (Species wide Lotai)
-Soia expand on unusual trait to make hyper effective telepathic traits, which they put into the Soia-lorin copy of humanity they engineer, the Loroi
-Humans species wide Lotai render them highly resistant/immune to telepathic scanning/probing.

This is what I said.

And it still doesn't appear to be what I just said. What I'm saying is that humanity doesn't have any telepathic traits to expand on. They're not resistant to Loroi telepathy, they just almost totally lack any sort of either sending or receiving ability.

That remains to be seen

I wouldn't be surprised if humans end up being super-telepaths that could make the God-Emperor of mankind proud.
Just imagine the look on Loroi faces if Alex accidently smacks a few ships around.

[Grayhome]

Hah! If Alex pulls a Starkiller I'll be very impressed.