Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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dragoongfa
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

I think that even toddlers have to have distinct telepathic signatures from each other so it's very hard to have such a mishap.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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Arioch wrote: In the pre-starflight era, when Loroi nations warred against each other and clans vied for power within nations, there were cases when a disadvantaged nation might dip into its civilian pool for talented individuals, or a disadvantaged clan might allow a wealthy civilian to "buy in" by mating her with one of the male scions of the clan. But in the modern era, after unification and abolition of the clan system, this is generally not permitted. It might be tempting to backdoor a powerful civilian psychokinetic into the Teidar, but there are other uses for male and civilian PK's.
I expected for a naturally lethal psychokinetic civilian child (i.e. able to easily kill without using an amplifier) to be automatically inducted as a Teidar candidate, they are dangerous weapons by just existing and their automatic induction would offer a very useful social stress relief tool by showing the civilian underclass that if their children are lucky enough they can be inducted into a very prestigious warrior caste.
Same with the Mizol if a child showed high telepathic potential coupled with some telekinesis, especially since a Mizol born to a civilian could prove to be a very good asset in matters of managing civilian unrest.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

icekatze wrote:That makes me wonder, are there any notable stories or legends about children that were mixed up shortly after birth? Surely much less likely in the space-faring era, but perhaps in older times, especially since children aren't generally raised by their parents. Child from a warrior caste mother gets mixed up with a child from a civilian caste mother, maybe they looked so much alike or something.
As dragoongfa mentioned, babies are identified by their telepathic signatures rather than names, and warrior and worker babies are usually not raised in the same facilities, so it would take a disaster or war to mix them up... in which cases it would be tough to ever unmix them again. It's tough in a telepathic society to keep a known secret about the child's true origin.

It would be unusual for a heroic myth to feature a civilian protagonist. Thinking of our own mythologies, the heroes are almost always princes and princesses or kings and queens or the children of the gods or the gods themselves, and almost never peasants. A switched at birth story makes for a great Gilbert & Sullivan comedic musical, but that doesn't seem very Loroi in style... and the likely "civilians can succeed too" or "we're all the same underneath" morals don't seem like ones Loroi society would value. Confused parentage stories that are more Loroi in character would be something like:
  • A warrior child of Clan A is taken in a raid by Clan B, and raised in Clan B where no one really paid any attention to where she came from. She rises to prominence and eventually leads Clan B in an attack on Clan A, and destroys them. A survivor recognizes her telepathic signature and informs her that she's just killed her entire family. She goes mad and leads Clan B to ruin.
  • A warrior child of Clan A is taken in a raid by Clan B, and raised as a worker in the new clan. She rises to prominence in the civilian order of Clan B and eventually leads a successful worker revolt, destroying the warrior class of the clan. The neighboring clans (including Clan A) attack and destroy the rebels. As the hero lies wounded, her sisters recognize her telepathic signature and are reunited with her, but she dies shortly after.
dragoongfa wrote:I expected for a naturally lethal psychokinetic civilian child (i.e. able to easily kill without using an amplifier) to be automatically inducted as a Teidar candidate, they are dangerous weapons by just existing and their automatic induction would offer a very useful social stress relief tool by showing the civilian underclass that if their children are lucky enough they can be inducted into a very prestigious warrior caste.
Psychokinetic potential is hereditary, so in the modern era to have a civilian PK who was lethal unamplified would be very rare. But I think you're right that if they would make an exception in any case, this would be the one. Ultimately, might makes right in a warrior culture. However, I think they'd go out of their way to find some geneological evidence that she had warrior ancestors and was really a warrior. "You can make it if you try" is not the kind of message that keeps castes separate and underclasses in line.
dragoongfa wrote:Same with the Mizol if a child showed high telepathic potential coupled with some telekinesis, especially since a Mizol born to a civilian could prove to be a very good asset in matters of managing civilian unrest.
I think this case is less likely. Civilian telepaths are taught civilian techniques, and Mizol ninja skills are the kind of thing that is hard to learn on your own. A civilian telepath who is capable and influential within her own sphere is not usually considered to be a problem.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Gorbash »

Arioch wrote:Thinking of our own mythologies, the heroes are almost always princes and princesses or kings and queens or the children of the gods or the gods themselves, and almost never peasants.
I don't really think that's the case -- heroic myths tend more to follow the culture telling the story in question, and you end up with more "peasant"-centric stories as the cultural divide between peasants and nobles increases. Hence why we have so many stories (David ala David and Goliath or the other biblical heroes that started as shepherds, the miller's son in Puss in Boots... if we include historical figures whose humble beginnings romanticized their origins, we get Napoleon, Joan de Arc, and Abraham Lincoln as comparatively recent examples) about slaves, shepherds, and other "salt of the Earth" people tricking and/or becoming nobility, all coming from cultures where nobles and peasants don't really associate. And also why those tend to emerge as "folklore", passed by oral tradition, than as stories with formal authors and written origins -- the people more likely to be telling them are less likely to be able to read.

I imagine (given Loroi telepathy and cultural views on lying) that there could still not be any real "myths" about Loroi civilians (or at least Loroi civilians moving to the warrior caste), but it would surprise me if the Loroi civvies don't have their own "heroes" and embellished "stories" and gossip about clever civilians being rewarded by the Loroi leadership for actions of cleverness or bravery or skill. After all, they're somewhat isolated from their fellows in the Warrior castes (having separate education, baby-raising areas, mates, and occupations), treated as mildly second-class citizens, and ruled by enigmatic leaders whom they're encouraged to respect, follow loyally, and look up to; I may be wrong on this, but I wouldn't think they'd identify as well with stories of ancient war-heroes as they would the Loroi equivalent of John Henry and Paul Bunyan. Less of the "shepherds *becoming* kings" motif as in human history, certainly.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

It makes sense that Loroi stories would put an emphasis on people being in their correct caste, although as has also been said, Loroi stories are also expected to be true. I was wondering less about whether it was possible to have a heroic civilian, and more about what kind of scandal it would cause. I expect that in modern Loroi culture, the two castes barely interact, but in a small pre-industrial village, I would imagine that there would be more chances for either a mistake or some act of revenge.

I do find it a little bit interesting that hereditary family in the first example would be something strongly considered, but certainly not implausible. I might have thought that a disregard for hereditary family would be also a strong possibility, but I admit that the dynamics of Loroi family structures is a mystery to me.

I guess what I was curious about is the unmixing process. Would a civilian child who thought they were warrior born be stripped of rank, or maybe sent on impossible suicide missions in order to cover up the mistake, or would their superiors just acknowledge that mistakes were made and it's just too bad so deal with it. (If it were the latter, I would imagine that any story about a civilian getting mixed into the military would end with their catastrophic demise, just proving further that the military has the proper birthright.)

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Gorbash wrote:
Arioch wrote:Thinking of our own mythologies, the heroes are almost always princes and princesses or kings and queens or the children of the gods or the gods themselves, and almost never peasants.
I don't really think that's the case -- heroic myths tend more to follow the culture telling the story in question, and you end up with more "peasant"-centric stories as the cultural divide between peasants and nobles increases. Hence why we have so many stories (David ala David and Goliath or the other biblical heroes that started as shepherds, the miller's son in Puss in Boots... if we include historical figures whose humble beginnings romanticized their origins, we get Napoleon, Joan de Arc, and Abraham Lincoln as comparatively recent examples) about slaves, shepherds, and other "salt of the Earth" people tricking and/or becoming nobility, all coming from cultures where nobles and peasants don't really associate. And also why those tend to emerge as "folklore", passed by oral tradition, than as stories with formal authors and written origins -- the people more likely to be telling them are less likely to be able to read.
Folklore often features peasant characters, but folklore is not really what I mean by heroic myth. Mythology is derived from folklore and historical events, but it is distilled by time and culture into almost pure allegory according to the mores of the culture. The peasant hero who made himself king inevitably transmogrifies into the disinherited prince who reclaims his lost birthright, or who is the chosen one fulfilling prophecy. David was a shepherd... who was anointed King by God and who (according the to the Bible's telling) owed all his success in battle to his piety and God's patronage, rather than to his own skill or wit. But you're right, the story of the myth reflects the values of the culture.

Folklore and the fairy tales derived from them also differ in often having "happy ever after" conclusions, whereas in heroic myth the story usually plays all the way to end with the eventual death of the hero.
icekatze wrote:It makes sense that Loroi stories would put an emphasis on people being in their correct caste, although as has also been said, Loroi stories are also expected to be true.
Sure, but society decides which stories to retell. As with the Bible, the stories are carefully curated, each chosen to teach a moral lesson... mythology is not history. As Spock said, it is not a lie to keep the truth to oneself.
icekatze wrote:I guess what I was curious about is the unmixing process. Would a civilian child who thought they were warrior born be stripped of rank, or maybe sent on impossible suicide missions in order to cover up the mistake, or would their superiors just acknowledge that mistakes were made and it's just too bad so deal with it.
If a civilian child somehow got into a warrior training band by accident, once she passed the warrior trials, legally she is a warrior, regardless of who her parents were. How her peers and superiors would react to the revelation of her "low" birth would depend on the situation, her character and the characters of her peers and superiors. She might be given shit jobs for the rest of her life, or the matter might be forgotten and never mentioned again.

As I write this it does occur to me that there would be an important exception to the rules that divide classes: adoption. Even in caste systems like in India, as I understand it, adopted children legally belong to the caste of the adopting father. I recall an incident in Roman history in which a Patrician man wished to be Tribune of the Plebs which legally requires the office holder to be Plebian, so he had himself adopted by a Plebian family. There might be some stigmas associated with this, and it might be outright illegal in some localities, but parentage problems could sometimes be resolved through adoption by a high-ranking warrior.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Cool! Thanks again for taking the time to satisfy my curiosity. :D

As complicated as Loroi families sound, I'm sure human families would seem just as strange to them too. I mean, I'm a human, and sometimes I don't even understand them. :lol:

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Krulle »

I'm a father of three, and I can tell you I do not understand family. At all.

Weird, beloved bunch they are.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by inxsi »

Were the shampoo/conditioner (and any other beauty products) manufacturers nationalized by Greywind?

How large of a pool of people influence the Emperor's policies?

Is there any voice advocating for concern for the "common Soroin/Tenoin" in the war planning?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

inxsi wrote:Were the shampoo/conditioner (and any other beauty products) manufacturers nationalized by Greywind?
No.
inxsi wrote:How large of a pool of people influence the Emperor's policies?
The Loroi government is more of an oligarchy than it is a true monarchy; the Emperor's powers are not absolute. There is an extensive military bureaucracy that has a traditional way of doing things, and the Diadem council which appointed the Emperor can also depose her. Getting a conservative society to do something new takes a significant amount of political skill.

If you're asking who has the Emperor's ear, this is a character-specific thing that I'll leave until Greywind is actually introduced in the comic.
inxsi wrote:Is there any voice advocating for concern for the "common Soroin/Tenoin" in the war planning?
I'd like to think that most conscientious leaders have the welfare of the common soldier in mind, and I expect there is a significant amount of pushback from lower tiers of leadership when demands become untenable. However, this is a society in which much is asked of the warrior class even in peacetime, so when pushed into a war that has been essentially about survival from day one, the suffering the common solider can't be the top priority. But even the Loroi have limits, and the war has been in a dire state for a very long time.

If you're asking whether there is a dedicated position whose job it is to speak for the common solider, I don't imagine there is. I can't think of any equivalent in any Earth military.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by GeoModder »

Arioch wrote:If you're asking whether there is a dedicated position whose job it is to speak for the common solider, I don't imagine there is. I can't think of any equivalent in any Earth military.
I reckon 'the sarge' fits the bill? At least on the field level?
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

GeoModder wrote:
Arioch wrote:If you're asking whether there is a dedicated position whose job it is to speak for the common solider, I don't imagine there is. I can't think of any equivalent in any Earth military.
I reckon 'the sarge' fits the bill? At least on the field level?
NCOs and low ranking officers tend to speak on behalf of the common soldier when said common soldier is clearly frustrated about something. If only to avoid catching a bullet at the back in the mid of a firefight.

Yes I had a sergeant in the army who I would shoot at the back if we ended up in a firefight and I wasn't the only one, the Captain in charge of the company was aware of it and said sergeant was reigned in for his conduct; repeatedly.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by inxsi »

dragoongfa wrote:NCOs and low ranking officers tend to speak on behalf of the common soldier when said common soldier is clearly frustrated about something. If only to avoid catching a bullet at the back in the mid of a firefight.

Yes I had a sergeant in the army who I would shoot at the back if we ended up in a firefight and I wasn't the only one, the Captain in charge of the company was aware of it and said sergeant was reigned in for his conduct; repeatedly.
I was speaking at higher strategic or political level, more in line with my (possibly misremembering) politicians in World War One who viewed their responsibility as protecting the soldiers from the generals in charge. I'm not sure if this analogy really applies since it seems the Loroi were on the strategic defense before the events of the comic and those complaints were more about offensive operations that seemed designed to run into a meat grinder.

I imagine that at the lowest levels, sanzai would indicate tension and complaints well before they reach that level of intensity and those would try to be resolved before it gets to the "frag the officer" stage. The only concern would be those trained to hide their true emotions, so we just have to keep an eye on Tempo (sure, she said Beryl accidentally using her toothbrush on the Highland Seven was no big deal, but can you really be sure? :P )

That does raise a thought - how much interaction with the rest of the military does a Strike Group have? If the commander of a Strike Group becomes seems to be becoming unfit to command, what recourse is there to remove her before it needs to be done in the middle of the Steppes? I'm trying to avoid using Stillstorm as an example, as I think she's somewhat unique due to her opposition to the Emperor. My understanding is that in the field, this would be handled by the ranking Teidal and Mizol for in the field changes (read - arrest and detain the officer) - but would there be a channel to report back and get the commander reassigned temporarily before such drastic action is needed?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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The casualties of WW1 really affected politics after the war's end not during it. France's defensive doctrine for example is directly attributed to the fact that France was practically bled dry with an entire generation practically annihilated. The same but to a noticeably lesser degree with the British, not because there weren't horrid casualties inflicted on that nation's youth but because of a side effect of the suffragettes and their white feathers campaign which socially blackmailed all able bodied men to volunteer for the war; the nation's men saw the war as a social mandate on them and never really protested about them being sent to the grinder. The British insistence of peace above all up until the breaking of WW2 was to how war weary the generation that survived the war was, despite the fact that they weren't close to the brink of open revolt like the French army was.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

If two groups of Loroi are fighting, are they able to isolate their own telepathy from the enemy? Can one group listen in on the other?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

I think that civilian political leaders are more concerned about casualty numbers because they are more directly affected by public opinion, but in terms of caring about the actual welfare of the troops, most good generals (with a few notable exceptions) are as concerned as anyone. The horrific casualties in conflicts like WWI and the American Civil War were, I think, due as much to an inability of the leadership to adapt to new technologies and tactics as they were a lack of empathy for the troops. And, a general who loves his troops so much that he is hesitant to spend their lives when necessary is an ineffective general (see: George McClellan)... and more often than not, ends up taking more casualties in the long term than a more aggressive general.
inxsi wrote:That does raise a thought - how much interaction with the rest of the military does a Strike Group have? If the commander of a Strike Group becomes seems to be becoming unfit to command, what recourse is there to remove her before it needs to be done in the middle of the Steppes? I'm trying to avoid using Stillstorm as an example, as I think she's somewhat unique due to her opposition to the Emperor. My understanding is that in the field, this would be handled by the ranking Teidal and Mizol for in the field changes (read - arrest and detain the officer) - but would there be a channel to report back and get the commander reassigned temporarily before such drastic action is needed?
In strike groups that are constantly being resupplied in the field and sent directly back into action, this can become a problem. The command hierarchy of the group (the commander, squadron captains, and senior Mizols) will normally submit reports to the supply convoy, including action reports, supply requests and status reports; if there were complaints about the CO, that's where they would be expected to go. However, it's unlikely that much could really be done about the situation until the group came back into port.
boldilocks wrote:If two groups of Loroi are fighting, are they able to isolate their own telepathy from the enemy? Can one group listen in on the other?
Private telepathic messages can be shared between individuals, but public messages sent to a group can also be received by anyone else in range. Particularly skilled telepaths can sometimes intercept even private messages, so telepathy is not a secure form of communication in Loroi vs. Loroi battles. Even when observing telepathic "radio silence", each soldier's telepathic signature is still visible to the enemy, so there are not a lot of tactical surprises in a Loroi vs. Loroi engagement.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by inxsi »

Are crews kept together if their ship is resigned (if the crew did not suffer severe losses)? For example - it seems that the Thunderbolt might have most of its crew still alive when it was evacuated and resigned. Assuming this was the case, would this crew be kept together (crewing a new ship when one can be provided) or split up to fill spots on other vessels?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

inxsi wrote:Are crews kept together if their ship is resigned (if the crew did not suffer severe losses)? For example - it seems that the Thunderbolt might have most of its crew still alive when it was evacuated and resigned. Assuming this was the case, would this crew be kept together (crewing a new ship when one can be provided) or split up to fill spots on other vessels?
It would depend on the situation. SG51 has personnel shortages, so the survivors were distributed to other vessels to fill in gaps. When they finally got back to port, there would be an official determination made whether the crew should be reassigned.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by inxsi »

What civilian guilds deal most closely with the military? How close do civilians get to the front lines as part of their jobs and what are those jobs?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

inxsi wrote:What civilian guilds deal most closely with the military? How close do civilians get to the front lines as part of their jobs and what are those jobs?
The civilian elements of the military industrial complex -- those businesses involved in the design and production of military hardware -- deal most closely with the warrior class.

Any civilian working in any job in a colony near the front line is potentially in harm's way. There are some civilian workers in stations and outposts near the front, and there is some civilian merchant shipping that can occasionally get into action.

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