Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Discussion regarding the Outsider webcomic, science, technology and science fiction.

Moderator: Outsider Moderators

Tamri
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Tamri »

sunphoenix wrote:I'm not an officer.. and I own like several swords {7 to be exact}.. four of which are battle sharpened.. and ALL of them I know how to use effectively {been formally trained to fight with swords of several types~ no fencing though}; and yet.. I've never been a part of ANY military service. You don't need to be in the military to know how to use a sword or own {more swords than you need}... but I'd expect they'd frown on you carrying one with you on a scouting mission... unless you were an officer.
If you learn to deal with them - this is your advantage. But it is your own. Hardly in the official teaching of the spacecraft officer will be teaching for brandish one-kilo sharpening. In any case - Alex too young to know that something more than the basic rate. Even if he learning from childhood, that hardly.

Tamri
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Tamri »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
Military Officers in many - most - traditions - are allowed to own swords. Above a certain rank, they are required to own a sword.
They are not required, nor expected, to be combat masters with said swords, as they are mostly for ceremonial purposes.

Alex was an Ensign - that's the lowest rank of commissioned officer, meaning that - if the TCA operates anything like the U.S. Navy - he would have been permitted, but not required, to own a sword.
Well, then give me at least one of the modern officer, who taught, at least, how to properly hold it. In modern armies swords - rather the status of the marker and a relic of earlier traditions, where the title symbol was the himself blade, but not the fact of having them. I still keep grandfather's dirk, and honestly speaking, if this a weapon designed to kill - then the fork is simply a handheld WMD. Owning a knife and be able to own it - it is infinitely distant concepts that should not be confused.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4485
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Bellarmine was on an extremely sensitive intelligence mission (in which there was a good chance of the ship falling into hostile hands) conducted at extreme range where every kilogram of gear and fuel counted. Personal gear allowed on board -- if any -- would be sharply limited by weight and carefully inspected.

No, they would not let Alex bring a sword on board.

ShadowDragon8685
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:01 am

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Arioch wrote:No, they would not let Alex bring a sword on board.
Alright, but that only answers half the question. He might still own a sword, and it would have been left behind, maybe with his parents or something?

I'm mainly wondering if he's the kind of guy to have gone out and gotten the sword the moment he got his commission or not.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4485
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

There is no sword associated with a commission in the Scout Corps.

User avatar
cacambo43
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:39 am
Location: The Space Coast
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

I've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading the comic, as one does, and a couple of things occurred to me:

1. The beam that destroys Bellarmine *is* the same color as the plasma focus the Umiak are shown to use.
2. Even though the first shot crippled the ship, it took FOUR shots to mangle Bellarmine, but it was still largely recognizable and left Alex almost completely intact. Given the technological and military might of both the Loroi and the Umiak, if either one of them had done the attack, I'd have expected the first or second shot to have reduced the ship to undifferentiated slag or cinders. Alex assuredly so.

At this point maybe I should stop reading the comic again. If you scrutinize anything too much you start finding things. But it's just so GOOD.

CJSF

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

The plasma focus, pulse cannons and particle blasters are meant to pierce the target's hull and do internal damage. Consider them akin to bullets.

Antimatter torpedoes on the other hand are designed to annihilate everything in their area of effect. Consider those akin to artillery shells.

Bellarmine is an ordinary car that was riddled with machine gun fire. The car is a total write off and its passengers are all dead but the car is still recognizable despite the damage. The car however wouldn't be there anymore if it was hit by artillery.

User avatar
SVlad
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Aug 27, 2015 5:43 pm
Location: Saint-Petersburg, Russia

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by SVlad »

cacambo43 wrote:I've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading the comic, as one does, and a couple of things occurred to me:
1. The beam that destroys Bellarmine *is* the same color as the plasma focus the Umiak are shown to use.
CJSF
This topic was discussed in the comics at pages 60 and 63.
Maybe, you should reread the comics once more. :D
Outsider in Russian
Image

User avatar
cacambo43
Posts: 301
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:39 am
Location: The Space Coast
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by cacambo43 »

SVlad wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:I've been re-re-re-re-re-re-re-reading the comic, as one does, and a couple of things occurred to me:
1. The beam that destroys Bellarmine *is* the same color as the plasma focus the Umiak are shown to use.
CJSF
This topic was discussed in the comics at pages 60 and 63.
Maybe, you should reread the comics once more. :D
Those are the pages I referred to. Either you missed my point or I made it poorly. Probably made it poorly.

Kikitik-27's comments indicate the Umiak have not seen humans before and knew nothing of the attack. Sure, we have Stillstorm saying it's all lies, but I don't think that's the case.

CJSF

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.

ShadowDragon8685
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:01 am

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

dragoongfa wrote:There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.
Entirely possible, but considering the almost suspicious way that Tempo said "Green?" towards the Historian, and the way it immediately dismissed Alex's evidence with "That is not very precise intelligence, excellency," it lends me to thinking that Historian plasma foci are also green.

And since we know that the Umiak plasma foci are far too advanced for them to likely have developed themselves, if they did get their foci from the Historians, the beams would likely be the same color.

Tamri
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Tamri »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.
Entirely possible, but considering the almost suspicious way that Tempo said "Green?" towards the Historian, and the way it immediately dismissed Alex's evidence with "That is not very precise intelligence, excellency," it lends me to thinking that Historian plasma foci are also green.

And since we know that the Umiak plasma foci are far too advanced for them to likely have developed themselves, if they did get their foci from the Historians, the beams would likely be the same color.
However, Insider says that Historians plasmathrower has a different focus mechanism. Plus, Loroi PPC also obtained from Historians (and directly, actually) and its color - blue.

You can certainly assume that Historians have sold / transferred technology plasma cannons to Umiak (with, at least, for 30 years of pre-war period), but it has drawn to a serious complication. Occam doesn't agree, in short.

User avatar
dragoongfa
Posts: 1920
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:26 pm
Location: Athens, Greece

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:There is the possibility of Kikitik-27's forces not know of it but considering the decentralized nature of the Hierarchy it is more than probable that Bellarmine run into something that an other command of the Hierarchy didn't want to become known.
Entirely possible, but considering the almost suspicious way that Tempo said "Green?" towards the Historian, and the way it immediately dismissed Alex's evidence with "That is not very precise intelligence, excellency," it lends me to thinking that Historian plasma foci are also green.

And since we know that the Umiak plasma foci are far too advanced for them to likely have developed themselves, if they did get their foci from the Historians, the beams would likely be the same color.
That could also be a dig to an unseen Historian accusation that the Loroi fired on yet an other species (which is how the war with the Hierarchy started), the Historian saying that it is not precise intelligence may be the construct's way of trying to save face.

Also the Historian Plasma weapons are a far more advanced variant of the Loroi Pulse Cannons which should translate to a blue color.

Jethreuel
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Jethreuel »

Regarding Tempo's reaction and tilt to the Historian, I noticed that as well, but since the forum does not date that far back, I was unsure whether that has been discussed and resolved.

ShadowDragon8685
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 5:01 am

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by ShadowDragon8685 »

Tamri wrote:However, Insider says that Historians plasmathrower has a different focus mechanism. Plus, Loroi PPC also obtained from Historians (and directly, actually) and its color - blue.
Sure, but if the Historians were trying to play Umiak and Loroi off of each other - which is a great move in their position - or if they previously supported the Hierarchy, but decided they'd rather not be gobbled up by the fanatic collectivist bugs and backed the Loroi - then they would probably not give both sides plasma technology that can be easily identified as the same stuff.

And since we know they're super-advanced, I wouldn't really put it past them to be able to throw together an example plasma focus with entirely different technological lineage, invented out of whole cloth, for the Loroi to study; assuming that they don't actually have more than one Focus technology in their libraries.
You can certainly assume that Historians have sold / transferred technology plasma cannons to Umiak (with, at least, for 30 years of pre-war period), but it has drawn to a serious complication. Occam doesn't agree, in short.
The problem with Occam's Razor is that people who apply it are very often wrong, triply so when you get into the arenas of politics, espionage, and narrative fiction, all of which we are dealing here. The simplest explanation, quite simply, is not likely to be correct in any of those cases, and the Historian seems shady as hell to me.

dragoongfa wrote:That could also be a dig to an unseen Historian accusation that the Loroi fired on yet an other species (which is how the war with the Hierarchy started), the Historian saying that it is not precise intelligence may be the construct's way of trying to save face.
It may be... But even if the Loroi shot first, it was pretty clearly a manufactured incident to give the bugs casus belli to launch a prepared invasion. If some Canadian boat did something stupid that got a US Coast Guard vessel to open fire and suddenly tens of thousands of angry Canucks were riding their Battle Moose into New York state, it would be transparently obvious that even if the U.S. shot first, there was a huge red, white, and maple syrupy shenanigan going on.

You don't have a prepared invasion force ready to go with their dancing shoes laced up on the off-chance the other guy decides they want to have a shooting war.
Also the Historian Plasma weapons are a far more advanced variant of the Loroi Pulse Cannons which should translate to a blue color.
Perhaps, perhaps not. We don't know what elements go into a plasma foci's color, and that's disregarding the possibility that the Historians intentionally obfuscated the traces of their technology-sharing deals by giving the Hierarchy and Union different branches of plasma focus tech, which, frankly, I consider to be the likely possibility if they've been playing both sides.
Jethreuel wrote:Regarding Tempo's reaction and tilt to the Historian, I noticed that as well, but since the forum does not date that far back, I was unsure whether that has been discussed and resolved.
Like I said, it seems like she suspects shenanigans. And when someone like Tempo suspects shenanigans, betting against shenanigans is a sucker's bet.

Jethreuel
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Jethreuel »

Where in Insider does it say that Historian Plasma weapons are blue? All I see is that they use a different focusing mechanism.

Sweforce
Posts: 546
Joined: Fri Mar 13, 2015 12:00 am

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Sweforce »

Jethreuel wrote:Where in Insider does it say that Historian Plasma weapons are blue? All I see is that they use a different focusing mechanism.
Even if it are blue, IF they want to do some cloak and dagger stuff I guess they would tweak it to look different. Even if that mean reducing the damage output a bit.

Tamri
Posts: 313
Joined: Tue Dec 15, 2015 8:55 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Tamri »

ShadowDragon8685 wrote: Sure, but if the Historians were trying to play Umiak and Loroi off of each other - which is a great move in their position - or if they previously supported the Hierarchy, but decided they'd rather not be gobbled up by the fanatic collectivist bugs and backed the Loroi - then they would probably not give both sides plasma technology that can be easily identified as the same stuff.

And since we know they're super-advanced, I wouldn't really put it past them to be able to throw together an example plasma focus with entirely different technological lineage, invented out of whole cloth, for the Loroi to study; assuming that they don't actually have more than one Focus technology in their libraries.

According to Jim, in focus of the plasma used manipulation by certain forces in the plasma itself (electromagnetism? nuclear / quantum interaction? hell knows). That in itself means that "focus principle" - essentially a manipulation by other forces, or radically different mechanism application have known forces rather than banal replacement lenses on the sleeve. In fact - this is a completely different technology that requires an individual development and individual technical support, and not just a modification of cash materiel. If blasters Delrias / Morath you can still make a different modification of the same technology, the Umiak plasma and Historians variant - a completely different technology, simply due to the difference in the level of technology (blasters and plasma). Roughly speaking: Lorai and Historian plasmathrower - a gauss and railgun, Umiak - ordinary gun on chemical explosives. And then, and then - the kinetics but principle of the transfer energy to projectile is different. A blasters - bows. Or crossbows.

It could be anything. Or rather - what Jim writes, will be. The question is - why? Here no one is similar to the advanced scientists, who study and design something for the sake of the process itself. Well, maybe Pipolsid slightly different in a good way. And Historians generally look worse than the conservatives and stagnancy than themselves Lorai. And then they suddenly turns out to be as much as two 100% working and absolutely not similar to each other plasma weapons project, have in addition the potential to improve (well, the latter is controversial and subject to discussion, but let it be). As Stanislavski said - "Don't believe." If only all that Jim told us about the Historians to this - not a clever mask, what they act out for decades, but in this case they are actors and schemers beyond genius. So brilliant that managed not to puncture even when their quite live representatives were close range to Loroi, that according to the timeline, it took place in the past.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote: The problem with Occam's Razor is that people who apply it are very often wrong, triply so when you get into the arenas of politics, espionage, and narrative fiction, all of which we are dealing here. The simplest explanation, quite simply, is not likely to be correct in any of those cases, and the Historian seems shady as hell to me.

Yes, that's just any work on it, too, it is desirable to occasionally glance, because otherwise appear in the story grand pianos, as a natural result. Especially if the author doesn't give under such cases iron explanation why it happened so and not otherwise.

Jethreuel
Posts: 40
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2016 10:54 pm

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Jethreuel »

Another possibility, it could be an Umiak Ally Courier, acting in similar capacity to the Barsam. Typically you would want your couriers close enough that they could see combat but far enough that they would not likely be targeted. This could be an Umiak Courier who was surprised when Humanity contacted them and shot first rather than ask questions.

User avatar
Arioch
Site Admin
Posts: 4485
Joined: Sat Mar 05, 2011 4:19 am
Location: San Jose, CA
Contact:

Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

I guess Tempo's phrasing could lead one to this conclusion, but I'd like to point out that nowhere in Tempo's speech does she say that the Loroi fired first.
ShadowDragon8685 wrote:We don't know what elements go into a plasma foci's color
Kyber crystals, of course. :D

Post Reply