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The Real Navy thread 
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Post The Real Navy thread
This is the thread to discuss the merits (positive and negative) of real navy ships (not hypothetical) both past, present, and future.

Inspired by the RIMPAC 2014 navy exercises that are going on at the time of this post and the prior thread 'Zumwalt: Stealth and Armor in Modern Naval Combat' which has some great discussions on weapons, armor, sensors, survivability.

Need some inspiration?
Imagine its World War One, Two, or Three (in the year 2020) being fought with conventional weapons and your the commander of a ship of war!
- What ship are you commanding and why?
- Provide a web-link to the ship and a picture
- What region of the world are you and your ship fighting in?
- What is your mission or fighting style for this ship?

Need some resources?
Defense Industry Daily - http://defenseindustrydaily.com/
Naval Technology - http://www.naval-technology.com/
Global Security (browse in private mode to avoid view-limits) - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... index.html
Foxtrot Alpha military blog - http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/
Wikipedia - Just remember that anyone can edit these pages


Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:34 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
I would command the a "Sejong the Great class destroyer" of the Republic of Korea Navy in the contested waters of the South China Sea
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sejong_the ... _destroyer

Love this ship, its big but with comparatively small crew needs, stealthy, moderately shallow draft, long range, sensors, two helo hangers, and all the advanced technology you could want. Packs quite the arsenal too with 80 Mk-41 VLS, 48 K-VLS, 21 round RAM, 30mm Goal-keeper, 5in Gun, and 8 dedicated anti-ship missiles.

Something like this could stay out on long endurance strike or area-denial missions and conducted extend AAW, ASW, ASaW before having to pull into harbar to reload and refuel making it suitable as a lone-wolf. These ships are fast as hell for there size allowing them to chase down prey or shoot-n-scoot before the enemy can react. If attacked it would be able to deal with in-bound threats from over the horizon all the way into 30mm range requiring a very determined assault to destroy the ship which would drain resources from the enemy's other campaigns and stock piles.

With expanding China to the one side, North Korea crazy above, Japan to the other side, maritime interests to preserve, and a densely packed population that needs defending in the middle of it all... If ever there was a ship built to slug it out in a long drawn out war.. this is the ship.

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Tue Jul 08, 2014 10:36 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
My first impulse would be a Kirov class ship, just for the humor of being able to say...

"Battlecruiser operational!" :D

On a more serious note, I'm fairly open to various ships as options, and that ROK boat is nothing to sneeze at. For general wartime duties, I wouldn't mind a Burke, or even the older Tico's, given the combination of firepower and defensive capability present in both. Just about any comparable British or European vessel would do just as well... What can I say? Hard to choose just one lady with such a selection available. I'll get back with a more concrete choice soon.

Edit; Funny... After looking at the available options, it boils right back down to the three I'd mentioned offhand. Either the Burke or Tico have plenty of firepower, excellent electronics fits, and plenty of secondary utility. I'd take either or... Were I to simply opt for a shorts browning level of brute force, I'd probably favor the Kirov, which far outstrips virtually any other combatant afloat in terms of pure offensive and defensive firepower with it's heavy missile load and multiple Kashtan and AK-630 batteries (if I had the option, I'd happily retrofit one with more up to date electronics and call it good).


Wed Jul 09, 2014 6:39 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
World War 1? I go for a swim to save time.

2? North Carolina class. The smaller caliber 16/45 inch guns actually have better penetration probabilities at radar engagement ranges than the higher cal guns they put on the Iowa's because of the plunging shell trajectory. Better sea keeping than the Dakotas, and better shock resistance than either of her successor classes.

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Modern day shooting war? German Type 212. Unconventional, conventional submarine. Fuel cell provides several weeks of underwater endurance with little to no discernible acoustic signature. Non-ferrous hull defeats MAD. Shallow draft permits special operations and mine delivery. Limited offensive capacity, none that I am aware of against in shore targets. It won't make the headlines, but it will bring you home.


Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:55 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
I'd opt for a Gotland class sub. It's a boat that has proven to make the US Navy "not amused", by consistedly staying undetected while taking snapshots of at least one US Navy attack carrier and winning a duel with a US Navy SSN.

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Thu Jul 10, 2014 10:30 am
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
The Gotland is an excellent proof of concept for AIP subs but is approaching obsolescence and, reportedly, the more modern 212 has a test depth of 700 meters. Taken at face value, that is impressive enough to make me favor it for power projection operations.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:25 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
Interesting question! Here is my personal selection:

WW1: SMS Emden. Maybe not the most powerful or best protected warship (and it was destroyed), but in the right hands it has proven to be very nimble and effective. The story of its crew is very interesting as well, it looks kind of beautiful and boy did it made the British angry.

WW2: Type XXI U-boat. The most modern submarine designed and built in WW2. It took in account everything that the Germans had learned in the war to this point and combined it with a new hydrodynamic hull, better batteries, RADAR, hydrophones, snorkel, etc... It was faster underwater and even had some form of early stealth technology included in its periscope. Yes, it came too late, but every submarine built afterwards was modeled after the Type XXI.

Today: Thats a hard one... Skjold-class corvette Why? Its fast, stealthy, nimble and deadly. However, there are others to consider: the Swedish Visby-class corvette, Type 212 U-Boot, Independence-class littoral combat ship, ...

Why nothing bigger, like battleships and aircraft carriers? Big is not always beautiful. ;)

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Thu Jul 10, 2014 1:29 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
@ Senanthes
You may get your wish on those Kirov's word in the Navy is that the Russians are bringing them out of retirement and refurbishing them with deployment around 2020
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -units.htm - ' In December 2011 it was reported that the Russian Defense Ministry was planning to refit the Admiral Nakhimov, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov missile cruisers by 2020 ' Hope it goes through as the Kirov's were built to put a battle group out of action on its own.

@Suederwind
Great choices, if I had to pick a fast-attack hit-n-run craft it would be those Skjold class corvette; however it could use some kind of SAM system like a Barak-1 so its light-weight VLS with to-the-horizon range for self defense. It would also need off-ship initial target queuing as its so low in the water that the missiles can actually fly further than the ship can see on its own; without that remote-targeting it has to get within the radar horizon of its opponent to shoot.

@Nemo
AIP systems like those on the German Type 212 are fantastic for coastal patrol defense of territory so these work great for the countries that are building them as that's the primary goal. I generally prefer nuke boats myself as can range far from home waters and into the enemy's home waters then linger on station for weeks for an ambush opportunity.

Neat ships either way and all well suited to their environments.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 3:58 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
pinheadh78 wrote:
@ Senanthes
You may get your wish on those Kirov's word in the Navy is that the Russians are bringing them out of retirement and refurbishing them with deployment around 2020
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ ... -units.htm - ' In December 2011 it was reported that the Russian Defense Ministry was planning to refit the Admiral Nakhimov, Admiral Lazarev and Admiral Ushakov missile cruisers by 2020 ' Hope it goes through as the Kirov's were built to put a battle group out of action on its own.


Oh, I'm aware. :) That beast is pretty much the embodiment of Soviet naval doctrine, and the upgrades have been on the table for awhile now. The thought of an updated Kirov scares me, given that even the current fit is still quite capable of Macross Missile Massacre'ing whatever comes it's way that isn't damn near invisible, which is the majority of surface combatants today.


Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:58 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
Nemo wrote:
The Gotland is an excellent proof of concept for AIP subs but is approaching obsolescence and, reportedly, the more modern 212 has a test depth of 700 meters. Taken at face value, that is impressive enough to make me favor it for power projection operations.


Latest thing I read was the Gotland's are going to have an overhaul/refit, so I wouldn't write them out just yet.
Besides, later isn't always automatically better. Look at the nephew of the Type 212, the 214. ;)

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Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:12 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
I'll take the buggy Type 214 over this ancient Romeo class any day of the week. That old N-Korea boat looks like a rust bucket ready to sink on its own. Yes yes, I know its an absurd comparison but any excuse to poke some fun :D

http://www.businessinsider.com/kim-jong ... tos-2014-6

I prefer surface combatants myself but to choose a sub I would take a Virginia Block-5 type boat, smaller, quiet for a nuke, range, and the Virginia Payload Module (VPM) it will be fitted with yeilds some nice flexibility in weapons load-out or mission specific equipment. There is talk of maybe being able to fit a couple Titan-2 in those VPM to supplement or replace the SSBN and SSGN fleets as those start to phase out.


Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:58 pm
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Post Re: The Real Navy thread
GeoModder wrote:
Nemo wrote:
The Gotland is an excellent proof of concept for AIP subs but is approaching obsolescence and, reportedly, the more modern 212 has a test depth of 700 meters. Taken at face value, that is impressive enough to make me favor it for power projection operations.


Latest thing I read was the Gotland's are going to have an overhaul/refit, so I wouldn't write them out just yet.
Besides, later isn't always automatically better. Look at the nephew of the Type 212, the 214. ;)



Aye, which is why I stuck with the 212 :p The increased test depth gives it comparatively better blue water stealth, in addition to more modern sonar and endurance figures etc.



As for the NoKo's Romeo, I actually saw a few things in that report that piqued my interest. In the photo of the CnC there is what looks to be a flat screen mounted to the side. Too washed out to see what is on it, but I assume they tied a camera to the mast. In a picture of what looks like the stern torpedo room everything has been spit polished and painted, there is no indication of wear from use, or training.

All that said, a Kentucky long rifle is still capable of killing a man, if you follow me. The biggest limit this thing has is the short range of the Chinese torpedoes. I'm not fully prepared to assume NoKo couldn't make a more capable weapon. Doubtful, but not something I would plan around.


Fri Jul 11, 2014 4:14 pm
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