Dreaming of the Garden Discussion Thread

[inxsi]

Well, the lore is a bit weird, but this can be attributed to Beryl's lack of knowledge and Tempo's misdirection.
A couple of minor errors: the Neridi's template species is yet unknown, and it's Nezel, not Nebel.
Also, spooking Alex with lotai being anathema to the Barsam, how Mizol-like.

Thanks for the corrections - I've updated the part for the Neridi info and the Nezel mispelling. I could have sworn that a template species had been found for the Neridi. Well, I guess I can fix that - we can't have Beryl being that uninformed on these issues, even if she is not very conversant in the other parts.

[Dan Wyatt]

NICE

[inxsi]

NICE

Thank you - this scene, and knowing this was coming, was so fun for me. Glad you enjoyed it!

[Dan Wyatt]

Things are getting interesting.
Do mention MKULTRA and other Schizo stuff, would love to see Tempo and Fireblade's reactions.

[inxsi]

I wonder which of them would be the least interested in joining with Humanity if some of those experiments came out? My initial thought is that Tempo might start wondering if the dream is some attempt to force Loroi and Humans apart. I think it could still be viewed that way. Alex has not made the best impression on Beryl in the dream, Humans apparently hate the Loroi already, and now the dream is implying that Humans have some psychic history? Maybe she would think it is a mental defense technique - demoralize Beryl while giving her obviously false information that further convinces her to not pry into the dream too much? Or maybe all of it is (somehow) a projection of the Umiak to break up any possible alliance? Maybe Humans just have odd embarrassing dreams?

Though I just thought of Tempo listening as Beryl explains some of the MKULTRA experiments and assuring her that the Loroi never experimented in such a way with any psychedelic life forms from Perrein

[Snoofman]

Alex here gots some cajonies! Leaping for another try with a broken leg. No wonder he was selected for the Academy. Even if it might have been a bit reckless, risk takers might be better prepared for the perils of space travel.

Also loved the bit when Alex hides Beryl (I mean Lynne) in his closet right before his girlfriend storms in. Just out of curiosity, is she a bit ahead of Alex in some way?

[inxsi]

Alex here gots some cajonies! Leaping for another try with a broken leg. No wonder he was selected for the Academy. Even if it might have been a bit reckless, risk takers might be better prepared for the perils of space travel.

Also loved the bit when Alex hides Beryl (I mean Lynne) in his closet right before his girlfriend storms in. Just out of curiosity, is she a bit ahead of Alex in some way?

Thanks for the feedback!

Alex was pretty brave - though he did at least think about failing even if he decided not to wait for rescue. It probably was something he put on the application at least, and gives a good story

Caitlyn's quite a ways ahead - she is twenty-six years old (Alex is eighteen at this point) and a captain in the TCA Navy - she did not get into the Scout Corps. Hopefully I got the age right for when someone could be a captain. ETA: Not sure if I read your question on who was ahead of Alex correctly.

[Snoofman]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say Tia had more appreciation for more while Mary has a more abhorrent view of war.

Interesting chapter and choice of characters.

[inxsi]

If I didn't know any better, I'd say Tia had more appreciation for more while Mary has a more abhorrent view of war.

Interesting chapter and choice of characters.

Glad you found the characters interesting! I liked the idea of still having some of the very early officers of the TCA around even if they are confined to headquarters only.

The twins focus on different outcomes from war so they end up with differing opinions, but both are willing to fight if need be. It also made it more fun to write their dialog.

I didn't realize when I was outlining this part how little experience humanity has with space combat but the two have spent a great deal of time thinking about combat and reviewing the outcome of the various simulations their subordinates run. While those are far from the real thing, I think it helps them to come to terms with what war might cost, though they are still far from ready for what might be coming from either the Loroi or the Umiak.

[Cthulhu]

I'm back! Good to see even more chapters. The dreams are getting even more interesting. Strange looking twins? Silvery hair? How did Beryl get herself into the reboot of the Matrix?

[inxsi]

I'm back! Good to see even more chapters. The dreams are getting even more interesting. Strange looking twins? Silvery hair? How did Beryl get herself into the reboot of the Matrix?

Welcome back - wow, you read fast

I would definitely watch Beryl in the Matrix - not sure if she would like the Matrix look though.

Fireblade: This is what happens when you spend days thinking about aliens and then sleep on strange alien men.

[Cthulhu]

I've read parts of that before on mobile, but I was just too busy to reply properly. It's really hard to get out of the Matrix nowadays, since there are too few landlines around.

SpoilerShow

But, to be honest, I think that the new Matrix movie will be a disgusting cash-grabbing scheme without any merit.

Anyway, stuffing Alex into the male quarters? Will Sunfury pull rank in order to get visiting rights?

[inxsi]

I've read parts of that before on mobile, but I was just too busy to reply properly. It's really hard to get out of the Matrix nowadays, since there are too few landlines around.

SpoilerShow

But, to be honest, I think that the new Matrix movie will be a disgusting cash-grabbing scheme without any merit.

Anyway, stuffing Alex into the male quarters? Will Sunfury pull rank in order to get visiting rights?

Well, Sunfury has the rank to do so - not sure in the Loroi command structure if Tempo has authority to override that. I suppose that Beryl is Alex's caretaker and would need to approve - a fact which Tempo at least is not happy about for her own reasons.

The male quarters are isolated and secured (the better to not tempt the warriors stationed on Azimol Citadel) and have more amenities than other similar areas of the station. Which is important for impressing Alex who, as a male, is clearly not used to the harsh lifestyle of a warrior. At least no one has told him that to his face yet

SpoilerShow

If they have to explain landline phones in the next Matrix movie, that would at least be good for a laugh. Just saw the trailer... I'm not sure whether I should be glad it is not just rebooting the Matrix series or not. I'm not sure where else there is to go with the ideas of the movie or if they can recapture the sense of importance for the ideas of the first trilogy. And I think this is the sixth different trailer I've seen using the same song, which is starting to bug me and is (unfairly?) turning me off of the idea.

[Cthulhu]

Well, Sunfury has the rank to do so - not sure in the Loroi command structure if Tempo has authority to override that. I suppose that Beryl is Alex's caretaker and would need to approve - a fact which Tempo at least is not happy about for her own reasons.

The male quarters are isolated and secured (the better to not tempt the warriors stationed on Azimol Citadel) and have more amenities than other similar areas of the station. Which is important for impressing Alex who, as a male, is clearly not used to the harsh lifestyle of a warrior. At least no one has told him that to his face yet

Good for him, he can now brag about obtaining a palace with his own "space elf" harem. I wonder whether he had played any RPGs and how they may leak into his dreams.
Well, at least it's some peace and quiet for our protagonist.

SpoilerShow

If they have to explain landline phones in the next Matrix movie, that would at least be good for a laugh. Just saw the trailer... I'm not sure whether I should be glad it is not just rebooting the Matrix series or not. I'm not sure where else there is to go with the ideas of the movie or if they can recapture the sense of importance for the ideas of the first trilogy. And I think this is the sixth different trailer I've seen using the same song, which is starting to bug me and is (unfairly?) turning me off of the idea.

SpoilerShow

Since they killed off Trinity and Morpheus, it has lost most of the original vibe and the "replacements" are too cringy. Actually, only the first movie was very good, the others were quite subpar. The reboot looks like a crossover with John Wick and is most likely meant to literally cash on this franchise's success by combining it with nostalgia.

[inxsi]

Good for him, he can now brag about obtaining a palace with his own "space elf" harem. I wonder whether he had played any RPGs and how they may leak into his dreams.
Well, at least it's some peace and quiet for our protagonist.

The next part is up, so you can see if they put him to work or he gets to enjoy some peace and quiet (or both)

SpoilerShow

Since they killed off Trinity and Morpheus, it has lost most of the original vibe and the "replacements" are too cringy. Actually, only the first movie was very good, the others were quite subpar. The reboot looks like a crossover with John Wick and is most likely meant to literally cash on this franchise's success by combining it with nostalgia.

SpoilerShow

I thought the first movie was a good blend of action and philosophy (though it probably seemed deeper to me since it was my first mainstream exposure to some of those ideas). I watched the next two movies quite a bit later. I don't remember much, but they definitely changed the mood of it - which is too bad, since I think the feel of the original movie still worked by the time the sequels came out, though I'm not sure if it would work now. I've forgotten most of the plot of the later movies.

On the bright side, I don't think I'm attached enough to the Matrix story to care about this one - I'd already found myself uninterested in the sequels when the reviews were poor.

[Snoofman]

Mothear! Some Girl Scouts can be cruel and ignorant. Excellent chapter. I expected more pouting from the females that Beryl got to slip in under the covers with Alex. No pun intended.

[inxsi]

Mothear! Some Girl Scouts can be cruel and ignorant. Excellent chapter. I expected more pouting from the females that Beryl got to slip in under the covers with Alex. No pun intended.

Yeah, there maybe should have been a bit more of them ribbing her. Maybe Tempo (stealthily) influenced/threatened them not to? I might make a note to look at that if I ever edit this some more. Than there is the question of whether the others would be more annoyed if something happened between her and Alex or not?

[Cthulhu]

That's quite an interesting chapter, Alex's lotai is finally bypassed.
But Beryl crawling into the bed intended for encounters? I don't know if this is out of character for the Loroi, but it's quite the bold move from Beryl. Or even Alex, for this matter, given the Pocket Historian's warning. The new outfits are also a strange addition, basically, this whole scene is trying too hard to get both of them into the mood and then, into the same bed. It's not a dream, right? I'm not criticizing you, but the development did make quite a big jump there.

SpoilerShow

I thought the first movie was a good blend of action and philosophy (though it probably seemed deeper to me since it was my first mainstream exposure to some of those ideas). I watched the next two movies quite a bit later. I don't remember much, but they definitely changed the mood of it - which is too bad, since I think the feel of the original movie still worked by the time the sequels came out, though I'm not sure if it would work now. I've forgotten most of the plot of the later movies.

On the bright side, I don't think I'm attached enough to the Matrix story to care about this one - I'd already found myself uninterested in the sequels when the reviews were poor.

SpoilerShow

Even the plot of the first film was dumbed down regarding the usual cyberpunk tropes. Normally, it's not the human body heat that the machines should have been after. That's an utterly ridiculous simplification, and instead, it's the brains they should've coveted. Basically, humans would be chips in a gigantic supercomputer that the Matrix actually runs on, instead of being merely its batteries. No idea why they have distorted this quite common trope, but it did them a massive disservice. If you look through the sister-brothers filmography, you may come to realize that most of their movies are actually terrible, the Matrix being a successful exception thanks to its novelty and CGI (although it was not the first film of this kind). Once the fascination wore off, the other movies were seen for what they really were, artistic failures, that is.

[inxsi]

That's quite an interesting chapter, Alex's lotai is finally bypassed.
But Beryl crawling into the bed intended for encounters? I don't know if this is out of character for the Loroi, but it's quite the bold move from Beryl. Or even Alex, for this matter, given the Pocket Historian's warning. The new outfits are also a strange addition, basically, this whole scene is trying too hard to get both of them into the mood and then, into the same bed. It's not a dream, right? I'm not criticizing you, but the development did make quite a big jump there.

Thank you for the feedback - maybe I was trying a bit too hard on this scene without laying out the time for developing the characters to support it. I wanted to move some of it along since I thought I was straining credulity with how much practice Beryl is getting on English and not being sure of delving into the cultural references they keep mentioning (though it is probably a lost cause since this story is definitely diverging from any sort of canon anyway). Pacing is hard.

Alex did say he'd like her to stay and she wanted some comfort/distance from the others. My idea was Alex spoke to lighten the mood (like his comment about a listel on his lap and did not really think she would accept. And also that Alex is still only 19 - I am sure he meant it when he told Captain Hamilton about knowing the difference between school and the real deal but I think the prologue shows that he didn't always succeed. And Alex may still be considering the words of the Pocket Historian.

It is not a dream. It is probably a bit sudden - though they are just sleeping together, nothing more. The outfits are a stretch - Sunfury's main goal is to make sure that Alex's entourage cannot be mistaken for "legitimate" members of Azimol Station both in case they have been subverted and to ensure they do not mingle with Loroi (for various reasons) who have not been around Alex yet. Civilian clothes would have worked for that.

SpoilerShow

I remember me and my friends discussing how the body heat idea made no sense, and I was not even into cyberpunk - I think the most exposure I'd had at the time was watching but not really gotten into Johnny Mnemonic.

IIRC there was an interview where the Wachowskis were asked about the body heat. They said the original idea was that the machines were using the human brains as processors but they did not think the general audience would accept that explanation so they went with body heat instead. I'm not sure I believe them since this was after a lot of debate about the body heat explanation and the processor idea had already been discussed by the critics. If true, they definitely misjudged how the audience would react - I think there would have been enough mainstream support for the brain processing idea that it would have been adopted. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much it hurt the movie in general - I viewed it as an issue that could have been addressed better but was just part of the premise to get to fighting in the Matrix and everything else, much like the initial zombie outbreak in a zombie movie.

I'll admit, I looked up the Wachowski's wikipedia entry after watching the trailer. I don't think I recognized the names of any of the movies they did after the Matrix trilogy - though I was a bit pleased that they had kept making things after the Matrix, I had a moment of fear that the Matrix was all that they had done, even if the first was by far the most successful.

I also thought some of the love for the Matrix was because people could be a fan of an action movie (it did have really nice action sequences) while also having some philosophical cover. Sort of an "I watch it for the articles" idea. Though now I'm wondering about rewatching the first movie - I think it was very good even with the issues.

[Cthulhu]

So, I guess the Humans joined the Hierarchy as battle thralls? It keeps getting more interesting for the readers, but more confusing for poor Beryl. I wonder where Alex is getting those impressions from, perhaps a holovid? Space elves in distress II.

Thank you for the feedback - maybe I was trying a bit too hard on this scene without laying out the time for developing the characters to support it. I wanted to move some of it along since I thought I was straining credulity with how much practice Beryl is getting on English and not being sure of delving into the cultural references they keep mentioning (though it is probably a lost cause since this story is definitely diverging from any sort of canon anyway). Pacing is hard.

Alex did say he'd like her to stay and she wanted some comfort/distance from the others. My idea was Alex spoke to lighten the mood (like his comment about a listel on his lap and did not really think she would accept. And also that Alex is still only 19 - I am sure he meant it when he told Captain Hamilton about knowing the difference between school and the real deal but I think the prologue shows that he didn't always succeed. And Alex may still be considering the words of the Pocket Historian.

It is not a dream. It is probably a bit sudden - though they are just sleeping together, nothing more. The outfits are a stretch - Sunfury's main goal is to make sure that Alex's entourage cannot be mistaken for "legitimate" members of Azimol Station both in case they have been subverted and to ensure they do not mingle with Loroi (for various reasons) who have not been around Alex yet. Civilian clothes would have worked for that.

Well, it's a bit fast, but it's still believable enough, since stress can lower inhibitions and Tempo is likely to pull any dirty trick, even ordering Beryl to attempt seduction. Not that she would mind.
Civilian clothes for warriors, though? Now that's completely ridiculous.

SpoilerShow

I remember me and my friends discussing how the body heat idea made no sense, and I was not even into cyberpunk - I think the most exposure I'd had at the time was watching but not really gotten into Johnny Mnemonic.

IIRC there was an interview where the Wachowskis were asked about the body heat. They said the original idea was that the machines were using the human brains as processors but they did not think the general audience would accept that explanation so they went with body heat instead. I'm not sure I believe them since this was after a lot of debate about the body heat explanation and the processor idea had already been discussed by the critics. If true, they definitely misjudged how the audience would react - I think there would have been enough mainstream support for the brain processing idea that it would have been adopted. On the other hand, I'm not sure how much it hurt the movie in general - I viewed it as an issue that could have been addressed better but was just part of the premise to get to fighting in the Matrix and everything else, much like the initial zombie outbreak in a zombie movie.

I'll admit, I looked up the Wachowski's wikipedia entry after watching the trailer. I don't think I recognized the names of any of the movies they did after the Matrix trilogy - though I was a bit pleased that they had kept making things after the Matrix, I had a moment of fear that the Matrix was all that they had done, even if the first was by far the most successful.

I also thought some of the love for the Matrix was because people could be a fan of an action movie (it did have really nice action sequences) while also having some philosophical cover. Sort of an "I watch it for the articles" idea. Though now I'm wondering about rewatching the first movie - I think it was very good even with the issues.

SpoilerShow

That's what I meant, they dumbed down the original idea and filled it with action. This created a good first movie, but as soon as they tried to explore the ideas that they were too stupid to comprehend in detail, it turned into the cringefest that is the other 2 movies. Filling in the gaps with "mystery", yet without understanding the philisophy behind it all, was simply doomed to fail.