Dreaming of the Garden Discussion Thread

[Cthulhu]

I mean that the second Chapter is a bit too long compared to the first one. Also, you have quite the break between the ordinary parts that deal with minor stuff like ordering the taxi to the big leaks of sensitive data. I don't know how many parts of Chapter 2 there are, but that's about 3 chapters worth of text. Perhaps you can split it 1+2+3, then 4+5+6, then 7+8+?

SpoilerShow

That's the problem, if you take government leaks verified by who knows who and then present it in a subjective viewpoint of a show, instead of a proper format, edited by professional journalists, then this means:
1. They are after publicity, but then they are actually dealing a lot of damage to Humanity as a whole. Half-informed, agitated voters are a nightmare to deal with.
2. They are pushing someone's agenda. It's also quite bad, but you can at least negotiate with the "puppet master".
3. They work for the government, but in secret, and use "controlled" leaks as a means of "testing the waters" for the actual revelations.
4. They are agents of an outside force. Well, the new quisling government will need "reliable" people.

It's quite the minefield, but you are writing this stuff on a very good level, that's why I assumed that you aimed for some plot twists later on. You can introduce those in the caller's comments, for example. Or you can ignore my ramblings and continue with your story as you envisioned it.

As to the radio shows, I heard of those in the 90s, at least, but it's older, although I do not know how old.

[inxsi]

The chapters will probably always of quite different lengths, though hopefully they will even out a little bit. There was a lot to get through for Chapter 2 - the reason for the chapter numbering should become apparent soon. I have two more updates for the current chapter planned. Pacing might remain an issue - I don't want to mess with my outline too much, but hopefully it will be a learning experience for the next story (assuming I come up with any other ideas for a story).

SpoilerShow

There will be some more discussion on the details Radio Free Ares released, but it might be a while before the story mentions it. The First Contact mission is about 18 months away so Alex expects there to be plenty of time to learn what he needs to know if he is selected.

[Dan Wyatt]

The RFA did not say anything about the fact that the Umiaks attacked the orgus first, who were not between them and the loroi. They also omitted the fact that the subjugated population is kept under Quarantine in their own system thus denying them freedom of navigation and Exploration. The subjugated population also have to to produce a huge amount of war material that may deplete their system and destroy their ecologies in time.
They also omitted the fact that the Umiaks are an monomaniacal expansive species, that have engaged in Seren sector Holocaust.
Is RFA reliable?
Or is it just a pirate radio which is against anything the government does?

[inxsi]

The RFA did not say anything about the fact that the Umiaks attacked the orgus first, who were not between them and the loroi. They also omitted the fact that the subjugated population is kept under Quarantine in their own system thus denying them freedom of navigation and Exploration. The subjugated population also have to to produce a huge amount of war material that may deplete their system and destroy their ecologies in time.
They also omitted the fact that the Umiaks are an monomaniacal expansive species, that have engaged in Seren sector Holocaust.
Is RFA reliable?
Or is it just a pirate radio which is against anything the government does?

Sorry for the wall of text below - you bring up good points (and you might be interested in Cthulhu's posts on this subject as well).

Overall, Radio Free Ares has supported some aspects of the TCA (they have always favored expanding the Scout Corps, for example) and have opposed others (they have not generally supported the expansion of the military fleet, though they have changed to a neutral stance in light of the arrival of the orgus - if they were more confident that the fleet would matter, they would support it). More generally, Radio Free Ares supports government transperancy and believes in the rights of people to make decisions through a democratic process, while acknowledging that those choices may be poor. I should point out that they also have a website so the government has not tried to crack down on them - though this may be due to the optics of doing so.

Radio Free Ares has hosted a series of discussions covering the extremely limited information that the TCA government had released before this point - my assumption is that TCA release was basically that the Loroi Union and Umiak Hierarchy are in a long-standing brutal war, that both are expanding this way, that neither tolerates neutral third-parties, and that the loroi are telepathic. The TCA released this information to start improving the military budget in preparation for any hostilities and to start preparing for the First Contact mission to make contact with each side.

Both Phobos and Deimos take the view that there are moral lines that should not be crossed in pursuit of survival and are attempting to convince their listeners of that point. With so little information available, they mostly discussed frameworks for how the decision should be made. They do try to avoid speculation about either side and emphasized that more information should always be sought out, and that facts discovered by contacting each side may radically change the situation. Radio Free Ares has gone back-and-forth between the two sides, but was generally moderately pro-loroi with a big caution that not much was known about either side. This support for one side over the other is a new development.

You bring up good points that Radio Free Ares is glossing over, but Radio Free Ares did release the information that they based the broadcast on and it has been verified as legitimate, unaltered documents from the TCA. There is backing for all of the facts that they mentioned, though they are relying on the facts and analysis that was leaked. Those documents did not contain information on the Seren holocaust. They did contain information on the treaties of some of the umiak's client species, but tended to focus on those who are more free rather than those who are quarantined to a planet or single system. When negative information was presented on the umiak, it was usually accompanied by similar information about the loroi - the expansionism of the umiak was only mentioned as happening during the war with the loroi, for example, and that any overreach by the umiak are understandable but regrettable actions due to that war.

[Cthulhu]

The chapters will probably always of quite different lengths, though hopefully they will even out a little bit. There was a lot to get through for Chapter 2 - the reason for the chapter numbering should become apparent soon. I have two more updates for the current chapter planned. Pacing might remain an issue - I don't want to mess with my outline too much, but hopefully it will be a learning experience for the next story (assuming I come up with any other ideas for a story).

That's the difference between a story arc (which consists of multiple chapters) and a single chapter. But don't worry, this is only important in books, a forum-published fanfic doesn't need to abide by this stuff. The only thing that matters, is your imagination. Keep it up, you are doing great.

The matter about the RFA is a bit more complicated. A good analyst can generally tell, if the information is propaganda, or not. There are many signs, like unequal comparisons and whitewashing. It's quite a cat and mouse game between propaganda and the attempts at unraveling it. Even if you cannot tell what was altered, you can often tell that it was "improved". Therefore, they either ignored this, were unable to distinguish it, or are deliberately spinning it a certain way. For example, the "enemy is doing bad stuff because they are evil, thus forcing us (the good guys) to do the same", is an old propaganda trope. If you see that one, you can be sure that neither side has any moral high ground.

Besides, Beryl is not a Mizol, and she doesn't have the broad general education of a typical human with a degree. She won't see the finer points, but, given the anti-Shell sentiments, may assume that this RFA is an Umiak mole. Or worse, that the TCA already sided with the Shells and is now preparing the public opinion for an official alliance.

SpoilerShow

The Bellarmine incident was an inside job! Fusion fuel doesn't melt hull plating!

Anyway, this is your fanfic, and you may write it however you want. It's just too interesting not to discuss it.

[inxsi]

The chapters will probably always of quite different lengths, though hopefully they will even out a little bit. There was a lot to get through for Chapter 2 - the reason for the chapter numbering should become apparent soon. I have two more updates for the current chapter planned. Pacing might remain an issue - I don't want to mess with my outline too much, but hopefully it will be a learning experience for the next story (assuming I come up with any other ideas for a story).

That's the difference between a story arc (which consists of multiple chapters) and a single chapter. But don't worry, this is only important in books, a forum-published fanfic doesn't need to abide by this stuff. The only thing that matters, is your imagination. Keep it up, you are doing great.

The matter about the RFA is a bit more complicated. A good analyst can generally tell, if the information is propaganda, or not. There are many signs, like unequal comparisons and whitewashing. It's quite a cat and mouse game between propaganda and the attempts at unraveling it. Even if you cannot tell what was altered, you can often tell that it was "improved". Therefore, they either ignored this, were unable to distinguish it, or are deliberately spinning it a certain way. For example, the "enemy is doing bad stuff because they are evil, thus forcing us (the good guys) to do the same", is an old propaganda trope. If you see that one, you can be sure that neither side has any moral high ground.

Besides, Beryl is not a Mizol, and she doesn't have the broad general education of a typical human with a degree. She won't see the finer points, but, given the anti-Shell sentiments, may assume that this RFA is an Umiak mole. Or worse, that the TCA already sided with the Shells and is now preparing the public opinion for an official alliance.

SpoilerShow

The Bellarmine incident was an inside job! Fusion fuel doesn't melt hull plating!

Anyway, this is your fanfic, and you may write it however you want. It's just too interesting not to discuss it.

Thanks for the explanation - I was relying on the forum to handle the organization with chapters and sub-parts. I suppose trying to remember if something was in Chapter 2 part 4 or Chapter 5 (still Dream) isn't really different for a reader, it helps me when I am outlining to think of it that way so I'll keep doing it for this story.

Glad you think this is interesting with a lot of possible options - I've enjoyed the discussion with everyone on it.

SpoilerShow

Pretty sure the real conspiracy is different

[inxsi]

The next part is posted. Sorry for the length - I thought it would end up too short if I cut it in half.

[Dan Wyatt]

The next part is posted. Sorry for the length - I thought it would end up too short if I cut it in half.

I think you have posted it twice, I'm seeing a duplicate posted at 0514 and the original one at 0511.

[Dan Wyatt]

Anyways, it is getting good.
It now sounds like a good dream, inception style!

[inxsi]

I think you have posted it twice, I'm seeing a duplicate posted at 0514 and the original one at 0511.

I had some trouble seeing if it posted so I accidentally posted it a few times before I noticed it had gone through . I think I got all of the duplicates.

Thank you for your feedback

[Cthulhu]

Wait, wasn't the Polybius arcade game that strange urban myth? The game that would delete minds or something like that?

Also, the "Adrift Astronaut"

[inxsi]

Wait, wasn't the Polybius arcade game that strange urban myth? The game that would delete minds or something like that?

Also, the "Adrift Astronaut"

An urban myth about such a game may have inspired some of this

[Cthulhu]

Poor Beryl cannot even score in her own dream? Despite crafting this whole "love nest" and topping it with the accidental bump? The other Loroi will find this hilarious.

[inxsi]

Beryl can always blame it on being in Lynne's body - obviously, Alex is much more attracted to Beryl as a loroi. I wonder if she'll think of that as an excuse? I'm not sure if Tempo will accept it. If Talon and Spiral find out, poor Beryl will not get a moment's peace

[Snoofman]

Beryl can always blame it on being in Lynne's body - obviously, Alex is much more attracted to Beryl as a loroi. I wonder if she'll think of that as an excuse? I'm not sure if Tempo will accept it. If Talon and Spiral find out, poor Beryl will not get a moment's peace

Well, Beryl does seem to get a bit jealous when other loroi in the comic get Alex's attention. As a Listel anxious for new knowledge, it's understandable. But it seems obvious, especially if one looks at the extra content in the Insider section of Outsider, that Beryl seems to have a deeper interest in Alex than scientific curiosity.

Excellent chapters. Can't wait to see what other awkward situations may arise. The story gives me a similar vibe I felt when watching Kevin from The Leftovers series, when he's wandering through the afterlife/dream realm.

[inxsi]

Thanks for the comment - I'm not familiar with the series, but it sounds interesting just reading the premise on wikipedia.

Hope you all enjoy chapter 3!

[Cthulhu]

A good, intriguing introduction for the next chapter. The cut is an especially nice touch.
However, the following line bothers me a bit:

“No, I don’t sense anything,” Tempo replies. “She is still breathing though. But how can she be under his lotai? Try probing her. Like you did Alex.”

I'm pretty sure that the Loroi don't have any knowledge about how the name Alexander could be shortened, "Enzin" may be a better substitute.

Also, a couple of minor errors:

SpoilerShow

unsure of how walk in the same direction. (to walk)
Try probing her. Like you did Alex. (did with)

[inxsi]

Thanks - fixed the minor issues. I took a stab at fixing Alex -> Alexander when the loroi are using sanzai - I forgot about the loroi not knowing how to shorten his name. I left some for the narrator and Beryl's thoughts (since she learned it from the dream) - maybe she should be using the "nickname" Enzin while Tempo sticks with the more proper Alexander? I'll have to think some more on how to handle this going forward.

[Dan Wyatt]

“Beryl, go with Fireblade to the forward compartment. Tell Fireblade everything you can remember about the dream. We will deal with Alexander for now. Is there anything I need to know that might be relevant?”
Did Tempo say it? Please mention it in the chapter.
Also,

SpoilerShow

Where did the cut come from? It's spooky. I like spooky fanfics.

[inxsi]

“Beryl, go with Fireblade to the forward compartment. Tell Fireblade everything you can remember about the dream. We will deal with Alexander for now. Is there anything I need to know that might be relevant?”
Did Tempo say it? Please mention it in the chapter.
Also,

SpoilerShow

Where did the cut come from? It's spooky. I like spooky fanfics.

Yes, Tempo said that. Sorry, didn't spot that - it is fixed now.

For the cut:

SpoilerShow

I'm not sure how much I should mention - it does have a reason and explanation for where it came from (beyond being spooky though I'll admit to being pleased with that as well). Let me know if you want more of an answer or just want to enjoy the spooky mystery.