Page 88

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Re: Page 88

Post by fredgiblet »

Arioch wrote:Aside from the obvious fallacy of not having hit points based on HEALTH, it doesn't make sense in game terms either... it makes HT useless except in the few cases where fatigue matters (e.g., spellcasting), and a fighter character need only place points in ST and DX. Very silly.

Guessing the SJGames folks said to themselves, "Well, this game is pretty mature and complete. Let's just start changing shit at random to try to get them to buy a 'new' edition. Roll a D6."
Well as a wise man once said:
Arioch wrote:Lower body temperature and high metabolic efficiency certainly does imply better endurance. Physical strength and endurance are the same stat (ST) in GURPS, but they're not the same thing in the real world. I have a female friend who runs/bikes/swims mini-triathlons, but she's five-foot-nothing and won't be impressing anyone with her physical strength.
They had two different derived stats (fatigue and Hit Points) neither of which really belong attached to ST. My guess is that they felt they had to have at least one of the attached to ST to make things seem balanced or something like that. I disagree, I think that either Fatigue should have been separated or they both should have been attached to HT, which still wouldn't make it as valuable as ST. But it's easy enough to fix if it bothers you.

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Re: Page 88

Post by fredgiblet »

discord wrote:ST is about physical conditioning, so Fatigue could very well be under that too.
Not necessarily, if all you do is max lifts to bulk up then you won't be building endurance, building endurance requires cardio.
Sprawl63 wrote:I would think that a lower body temperature would give them a harder time in warmer (tropical or desert) environments. A lower body temperature means that would have to shed heat more quickly, which means they might become exhausted or dehydrated more quickly then humans. Take Alex's experience for example. Assuming both environments are tailored for the crews, while he might be shivering a bit on a Loroi ship, a Loroi might be sweating a bit on a human ship.
Not at all. You are confusing the base body temperature with the max body temperature, it's perfectly reasonable for them to run at a lower temp but be just as able of surviving a max temp just as high as humans, meaning that they would have a greater ability to withstand high temps as they would have a greater margin between basic running temp and max temp.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Arioch »

fredgiblet wrote: They had two different derived stats (fatigue and Hit Points) neither of which really belong attached to ST. My guess is that they felt they had to have at least one of the attached to ST to make things seem balanced or something like that. I disagree, I think that either Fatigue should have been separated or they both should have been attached to HT, which still wouldn't make it as valuable as ST. But it's easy enough to fix if it bothers you.
I don't disagree with moving fatigue to HT; one option makes as much or as little sense as the other. My argument is that also moving hit points to ST is both totally illogical and doesn't make sense from game balance; as you said, you could put both hit points and fatigue on HT and it would still be the least valuable stat.

Another option is to use calculated values like Move, which is (or was) DX + HT / 2.

This is a purely philosophical argument; I never had any intention of purchasing the new edition of GURPS, and it's very unlikely that I will ever sit down again with a group of in-the-flesh people to play a pen and paper RPG. (But if I did, I would probably be the GM, and so can make up whatever rules I like.)
Sprawl63 wrote:I would think that a lower body temperature would give them a harder time in warmer (tropical or desert) environments. A lower body temperature means that would have to shed heat more quickly, which means they might become exhausted or dehydrated more quickly then humans. Take Alex's experience for example. Assuming both environments are tailored for the crews, while he might be shivering a bit on a Loroi ship, a Loroi might be sweating a bit on a human ship.
It's a common misconception that "cold-blooded" organisms are less resistant to heat than "warm-blooded" ones, but just the opposite is true: reptiles are much more heat resistant than mammals, and can survive at a wider range of body temperatures.

A mammal has mechanisms to generate internal heat, so that it doesn't have to rely on external heat (like basking in the sun) to raise its body temperature up to optimal operating levels like a reptile does. But this is a double-edged sword, because when the external temperature rises above optimal body temperature, the internal heat can build up and cooling becomes an issue, and the temperature at which overheating starts to cause damage is only about 10 degrees F above optimal temperature. So humans and most mammals have a very narrow operating internal temperature range. A reptile isn't generating any internal heat, and so can survive hotter external temperatures than a mammal can.

But if your biochemistry is more efficient and operates at a lower temperature (and produces less waste heat), then the organism can still regulate its internal temperature like a mammal, but it will have a larger range of safe body temperature, because heat will still damage tissues at around the same temperature as a mammal, but the Soia-Liron organism is generating less internal heat and so is easier to keep cool. So the Soia-Liron organism is more resistant to both heat and cold.
discord wrote:although a 'reduced consumption' would nicely show the loroi 'improved metabolism', not sure about a good game term for the higher degree of temperature tolerance would be though, it should be around though.
GURPS does have Increased G-Tolerance, Decreased Life Support, and Temperature Tolerance advantages. You could also throw in Extended Lifespan if you wanted to be really accurate. GURPS also lets you buy fatigue separate from its base stat. I didn't include these because they're arbitrarily expensive -- 45 points for the lot -- and don't really offer any meaningful advantages to an individual character for that cost.

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Re: Page 88

Post by discord »

arioch: i was just nitpicking there, i like filling in the details, making it accurate, and is it that strange that loroi have a higher racial template 'cost' compared to humans? they are equal or better across the scale...they even have the superior ego to go with it. *grin*

the devil is in the details, as the story goes.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Mjolnir »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:I personally find it to much of a coincidence for the Soia to have apparently modeled the Loroi after humanoid hominids, AND for modern man to bear such an unusually strong resistance to Loroi telepathy. And I don't believe it was something engineered into humans after the Loroi were made, based on the fact that there's no evidence of a Soia presence on earth, and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.
I don't think it's that much of a coincidence. Most other local species appear reasonably readable, enough so that Alex was first thought to be actively blocking, the Soia eventually engineered at least one telepathic species, presumably not reaching such a high level of development by accident, and the Golim are so easily influenced that they're overwhelmed by the presence of a Loroi. Perhaps the Soia themselves had more primitive abilities, noticed that humans had almost no telepathic presence, and chose to use their latest bioengineering project in progress to tinker with brain structures to learn more about psi talents (maybe our lack of ability/presence shook some basic assumptions in their understanding of psi, maybe it just got them wondering). Humans are just unusually un-telepathic, and the Loroi are unusually telepathic because they were a work in progress at a time when the Soia were experimenting with telepathy.

The Neridi didn't like the tall, hairy newcomers getting such an upgrade, and started a revolt that destroyed the empire.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Trantor »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:... and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.
That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes. :D

I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.
sapere aude.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Mjolnir wrote: I don't think it's that much of a coincidence. Most other local species appear reasonably readable, enough so that Alex was first thought to be actively blocking, the Soia eventually engineered at least one telepathic species, presumably not reaching such a high level of development by accident, and the Golim are so easily influenced that they're overwhelmed by the presence of a Loroi. Perhaps the Soia themselves had more primitive abilities, noticed that humans had almost no telepathic presence, and chose to use their latest bioengineering project in progress to tinker with brain structures to learn more about psi talents (maybe our lack of ability/presence shook some basic assumptions in their understanding of psi, maybe it just got them wondering). Humans are just unusually un-telepathic, and the Loroi are unusually telepathic because they were a work in progress at a time when the Soia were experimenting with telepathy.

The Neridi didn't like the tall, hairy newcomers getting such an upgrade, and started a revolt that destroyed the empire.
Which doesn't quite explain why the Loroi were designed so morphologically similar to humans. If humanities mental characteristics that result in Lotai have nothing to do with telepathy, then there wouldn't be much reason to design Loroi after humans. And the Loroi were spread out across to many planets (three, though probably more population centers that got wiped out) for them to have just been some tinkered beta version.
Trantor wrote:
Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:... and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.
That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes. :D

I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.
I think it was Loroi propaganda that they were trying to put forth that they ARE the Soia, and thus have a right to rule the galaxy.

Naturally, a bunch of anatomically identical humans appearing out of nowhere and predating the Loroi, indicating that they're an artificial race derived from some backwater monkies sorta squashes that theory.

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Re: Page 88

Post by NOMAD »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:
Mjolnir wrote: Humans are just unusually un-telepathic, and the Loroi are unusually telepathic because they were a work in progress at a time when the Soia were experimenting with telepathy.
Which doesn't quite explain why the Loroi were designed so morphologically similar to humans. If humanities mental characteristics that result in Lotai have nothing to do with telepathy, then there wouldn't be much reason to design Loroi after humans. And the Loroi were spread out across to many planets (three, though probably more population centers that got wiped out) for them to have just been some tinkered beta version.
well look at eh planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea :oops: . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.
Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote: ... and it makes little sense to genetically engineer a primitive species to your own aims but keep them in some backwater habitat.
That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes. :D

or to keep the only Telepathic resistance experiment separate from each the telepathic one in order to see the effect on other susceptible races (IE sorta like having a magnetics R/D lab and computer labs on opposite side of a research base, to keep both work isolated for interfering with each other but the basis ( mag fields and magnetic materials) are used in both techs/research.)
Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote: I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.
I think it was Loroi propaganda that they were trying to put forth that they ARE the Soia, and thus have a right to rule the galaxy.

Naturally, a bunch of anatomically identical humans appearing out of nowhere and predating the Loroi, indicating that they're an artificial race derived from some backwater monkies sorta squashes that theory.[/quote]

Yes, but faith can blind people ( and Alien in this case) to the whole truth. You never know how much religion can change what really happened.

SIDE NOTE: the Loroi lego criuser thread was updated, with photos of my lego Arrow fighter. I would really appriecate some critic of my work . . . pls
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Re: Page 88

Post by fredgiblet »

Trantor wrote:I´m eager to find out what the Barsam meant.
Your answer lies here if you haven't seen it yet.

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Re: Page 88

Post by fredgiblet »

Arioch wrote:it's very unlikely that I will ever sit down again with a group of in-the-flesh people to play a pen and paper RPG.
Choice or circumstance?

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Re: Page 88

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

NOMAD wrote: well look at eh planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea :oops: . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.
Convergent evolution seems to be a kind of an irresponsible theory when you DO have a precursor civilization that dabbled in genetic engineering. THAT'S a perfectly valid explanation for something that really should be implausible (and what the wide variaty of life in the Outsider universe suggests is highly unlikely).

And the Soia engineering the loroi to morphically mimic humanity doesn't provide any explanation as to why humans are so resistant to mind reading. Unless again, it's all bloody coincidence.
NOMAD wrote: That, or as i stated before, we´re the early dumped prototypes. :D

or to keep the only Telepathic resistance experiment separate from each the telepathic one in order to see the effect on other susceptible races (IE sorta like having a magnetics R/D lab and computer labs on opposite side of a research base, to keep both work isolated for interfering with each other but the basis ( mag fields and magnetic materials) are used in both techs/research.)
Except there's no Soia archeological presence on the planet earth to suggest they actually based research here. Also, don't the Barsam, Neridi and the Loroi all share a similar biochemistry connected by the fact that they were probably engineered life forms?*

*The Nibiren's similarity to the Barsam seems uncannily similar to the human similarity to the Loroi. That seems to tie into the genetic adaptions.
NOMAD wrote: Yes, but faith can blind people ( and Alien in this case) to the whole truth. You never know how much religion can change what really happened.
The Loroi having face in being Soia is only half of it. The other half is that they want to convince OTHER Races that they have a right to rule.

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Re: Page 88

Post by bunnyboy »

Arioch wrote:Aside from the obvious fallacy of not having hit points based on HEALTH, it doesn't make sense in game terms either... it makes HT useless except in the few cases where fatigue matters (e.g., spellcasting), and a fighter character need only place points in ST and DX. Very silly.
Actually it makes more sense this way. With big strength you have more mass to withstand damage but you could still get tired easily.
And there lot of small powerhouses with very little of strength, but stamina to go on days.
Also, building strength with expense of health is somewhat dangerous.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Mjolnir »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:Which doesn't quite explain why the Loroi were designed so morphologically similar to humans. If humanities mental characteristics that result in Lotai have nothing to do with telepathy, then there wouldn't be much reason to design Loroi after humans. And the Loroi were spread out across to many planets (three, though probably more population centers that got wiped out) for them to have just been some tinkered beta version.
No, it means they only had the same reasons they had to design the Barsam after the Nibiren, or the Neridi after whatever their prototype was. They were going around making Soia-Liron replicas of other species...started doing so with humans for the same reasons they did it with all the others, experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing. And who says they were unfinished when the Soia empire fell?

NOMAD wrote:well look at eh planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea :oops: . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.
Convergence happens, but the similarity goes far beyond convergence...they're identical down to minor facial muscles and social behaviors, and a variety of other little details we only have because we descended from ancestors who developed a certain way in a certain environment. You're talking about a continuous chain of convergences all along their ancestry back to simple animals, including variations driven by chance instead of external forces. A bipedal form is not unlikely, a distinct head with a face of some sort on the front is not unlikely, a human replica is absurdly unlikely. And for multiple species with the same biochemistry to develop completely different body structures and "converge" with different alien species...

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Re: Page 88

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Mjolnir wrote: No, it means they only had the same reasons they had to design the Barsam after the Nibiren, or the Neridi after whatever their prototype was. They were going around making Soia-Liron replicas of other species...started doing so with humans for the same reasons they did it with all the others, experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing. And who says they were unfinished when the Soia empire fell?
See, now this is actually the EXACT kind of thing that I was talking about.

-Humanity has unusual trait with regards to telepathy (Species wide Lotai)
-Soia expand on unusual trait to make hyper effective telepathic traits, which they put into the Soia-lorin copy of humanity they engineer, the Loroi
-Humans species wide Lotai render them highly resistant/immune to telepathic scanning/probing.

This is what I said.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Darth Cloaked Guy »

Outsider is the only comic that is worth this sort of wait.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Voitan »

Mjolnir wrote:experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing.
I think it's apt to say every species so far save the Loroi, have a lack of talent in regards to psychic ability.
Arioch wrote:As proof, the Loroi point to their telepathic ability, which no other known race possesses
So it isn't our lack of talent, because many other species also lack psychic ability, that drew the Soia's interest, it's probably something like this:

Humanity has an immature psychic potential, but it's closed/looping in on itself, kind of like some residual mutation that hasn't developed fully. It's useless to us, save for a few individuals in a population of billions that weakly express this talent.

The Soia find this odd anomaly, and tamper with it to finally get a psychic species, the Loroi.

But the ability that allows the Loroi to reach and touch the thoughts of others still fails to send or receive psychic signals to and from Humanity, as though they were some psychic faraday cage.

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Re: Page 88

Post by NOMAD »

Mjolnir wrote: No, it means they only had the same reasons they had to design the Barsam after the Nibiren, or the Neridi after whatever their prototype was. They were going around making Soia-Liron replicas of other species...started doing so with humans for the same reasons they did it with all the others, experienced a resurgence in psi-related research due to the discovery of our lack of talent, and incorporated what they learned in the species whose brains they were currently in the middle of designing. And who says they were unfinished when the Soia empire fell?
But what was the ultimate reason for all the altering and genetic engineering of similar species: A) to incorporate the various traits into themselves ( unlikely) B) To experiment with various races to create a perfect sentient race C) To ensure their own dominance within their own empire ( IE engineering a warrior race ?)
NOMAD wrote:well look at the planets the the Lorio found themselves on, earth-like with similar gravity and varying environments (rain forest, Oceania, and desert, not sure the the last one) it could be a modified case of Galactic Convergent Evolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convergent_evolution. Where we have different origins, but a similar environment, which results in two Alien races ( human and loroi) having a similar body profile and biology. Granted Convergent Evolution may not be the best theory to support this idea :oops: . The other side of the argument would be the human/loroi races being discovered by Soia and seeing the benefits in one body type and modifying the other race to take advantage of said form.
Mjolnir wrote: Convergence happens, but the similarity goes far beyond convergence...they're identical down to minor facial muscles and social behaviors, and a variety of other little details we only have because we descended from ancestors who developed a certain way in a certain environment. You're talking about a continuous chain of convergences all along their ancestry back to simple animals, including variations driven by chance instead of external forces. A bipedal form is not unlikely, a distinct head with a face of some sort on the front is not unlikely, a human replica is absurdly unlikely. And for multiple species with the same biochemistry to develop completely different body structures and "converge" with different alien species...
I concede the point, too many coincidence for it not to be random. But why employ bipedal forms on most of the Soia-Liron races, if not for an extended design ( given the advantages of the form, better mobility and advanced tool usage etc ).
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Re: Page 88

Post by Mjolnir »

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:See, now this is actually the EXACT kind of thing that I was talking about.

-Humanity has unusual trait with regards to telepathy (Species wide Lotai)
-Soia expand on unusual trait to make hyper effective telepathic traits, which they put into the Soia-lorin copy of humanity they engineer, the Loroi
-Humans species wide Lotai render them highly resistant/immune to telepathic scanning/probing.

This is what I said.
And it still doesn't appear to be what I just said. What I'm saying is that humanity doesn't have any telepathic traits to expand on. They're not resistant to Loroi telepathy, they just almost totally lack any sort of either sending or receiving ability.


Voitan wrote:I think it's apt to say every species so far save the Loroi, have a lack of talent in regards to psychic ability.
No, they all passively transmit, and at least some unconsciously receive. The Golim are such strong receivers that they are overwhelmed by the presence of a Loroi.

Voitan wrote:So it isn't our lack of talent, because many other species also lack psychic ability, that drew the Soia's interest, it's probably something like this:
They lack functional high level telepathy. Telesense senses something most intelligent species do unconsciously send. Evidently, humans lack even that.

Voitan wrote:Humanity has an immature psychic potential, but it's closed/looping in on itself, kind of like some residual mutation that hasn't developed fully. It's useless to us, save for a few individuals in a population of billions that weakly express this talent.

The Soia find this odd anomaly, and tamper with it to finally get a psychic species, the Loroi.

But the ability that allows the Loroi to reach and touch the thoughts of others still fails to send or receive psychic signals to and from Humanity, as though they were some psychic faraday cage.
This only seems a more elaborate and complicated (and much more vague) explanation with no additional explanatory power. The simplest answer is that we just don't have as much telepathic ability as most species. We don't have a fancy Lotai any more than the Historian AI does.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Mjolnir wrote: And it still doesn't appear to be what I just said. What I'm saying is that humanity doesn't have any telepathic traits to expand on. They're not resistant to Loroi telepathy, they just almost totally lack any sort of either sending or receiving ability.
Now this is just semantics :| I'm not sure we're really in any kind of position to judge whether or not human Lotai falls under the spectrum of telepathic abilities, or is simply a matter of humanity not having ANY telepathic out put. We don't know the exact mechanics of the telepathy or the Lotai (hence the Loroi demanding to know how Alex's Lotai worked).

The one reason I might be more inclined to think there's a more active connection between Lotai and the other spectrum of telepathic abilities is that Lotai traits ARE present within the Loroi population. This suggests to me that human Lotai was more than just funky example for the Soia to look at to figure out how a TOTALLY non telepath works. I think some kind of human mental element got introduced into the Loroi to make them telepaths that as a byproduct left Lotai traits in their gene pool.

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Re: Page 88

Post by Voitan »

Mjolnir wrote:This only seems a more elaborate and complicated (and much more vague) explanation with no additional explanatory power. The simplest answer is that we just don't have as much telepathic ability as most species. We don't have a fancy Lotai any more than the Historian AI does.
I think just leaving at humanity having not as much telepathic ability leaves much to be desired as an explanation.

That is what is obvious to the reader. The reader will want to know exactly why however, and why the Soia chose a nascent humanity.

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