Page 88

[GOULimitingFactor]

Hmm. What if the Umiak are actually (in comparable terms) the 'good guys'? If you think about it, they are more industrious, less concerned about honour, pragmatic, willing to accept surrender, individually pleasant, collectively xenophobic, and rather bad for the enviroment. Sounds like America to me! I mean the Loroi look cute and all, but I wouldn't describe them as particularly likable or clever.

It's certainly America circa 1943 as seen by the Japanese (exactly the same way Crest of the Stars portrayed the United Mankind, who I was rooting for as well). Or the Union as portrayed by Confederate revanchists. Or Union in the Merchanter novels up until Cyteen (which made it pretty clear that the metaphor was not the Soviet Union but antebellum America). We weren't shy about spending lives to get to an objective, and there seemed to be a nearly endless supply of us.

And the Loroi do seem like the Bataan Death March and comfort-women kind of soldier - notice how the Umiak are the ones who proffer respect for an opponent, but the Loroi continue to use the same racist language right to it's face? You gotta wonder if they keep prisoners alive or call the galley for drawn butter.

Come to think of it, I find the idea of Kikitik-27 as Ulysses S. Grant very appealing. Do Umiak (ab)use recreational intoxicants? It seems like their jump-drugs would invite that sort of thing, and space crew abusing jump drugs recreationally fits with the overall CJ Cherryh flavor of the Outsider milleu. Maybe individual Umiak aren't as accepting of their deaths as the Loroi choose to believe.

[Solemn]

Come to think of it, I find the idea of Kikitik-27 as Ulysses S. Grant very appealing.

...this is quite probably the only time that posting this will ever be appropriate, and I'll be damned if I skip the opportunity.

[Nathan_]

That is an interesting Idea that kitkit has a new cloaking capability, in which case the bell's black box might have the best data on how it actually works. Still I don't see the Loroi being able to get such information in a timely manner.

Throwing out another possibility, Kitkit wants to retreat(to carry info back to Bug HQ perhaps), but cannot do this with stormwitch interdicting him and is trying to fake her out.

[osmium]

I know we got off into the details, but I figured it might be worthwhile for me to put forth the high level opinion 88 and tictak-27's comments made me think.

There is certainly something afoot, even simple analysis leads you to believe the Umiak commander is either portraying false bravado (i.e. time is no matter because he's not really *sure* the attack will work, and if that one attack doesn't finish the war, it will be important to overwhelm the Loroi quickly, and leaving a whole strike group intact might make a difference in that goal), is outright lying (this was the testbed there is no attack fleet), or some other ploy is afoot...

-O

[dex drako]

That is an interesting Idea that kitkit has a new cloaking capability, in which case the bell's black box might have the best data on how it actually works. Still I don't see the Loroi being able to get such information in a timely manner.

I highly doubt human sensors would be able to detect this jamming signal if for no other reason then Loroi telepathic powers don't work within the laws of physics. To make it worse from what I know loroi don’t even know how their telepathic powers themselves. The only reason they know how to make amplifiers is because they found lost Soia tech that showed them how. ( tho that's old info and may have changed.)

If the bugs can make a jammer they may know more about how telepathic powers work in this story then the Loroi do.

all of these makes it hard for me to believe the bell would have sensors that would help in anyway.

[Drek]

You know, thus far we've been thinking of the Umiak's new capabilities as a cloaking device, but perhaps that's not the correct metaphor. Maybe it's more like electronic counter-measures that can reduce the signal that Farseers detect without quite eliminating it. This would make any given Umiak strike force appear smaller than it really is, but only until the Loroi realize how it works and adjust. If that's the case, then Tiktak's force was probably sent for the express purpose of drawing Loroi forces out of position so that a second force- possibly of similar size- could get in deep. I'm not sure how the map on page 59 says anything about the potential for bypassing Azimol BUT Tiktak didn't say they could bypass the whole system, just the citadel. That might mean that if the Umiak can get as far as Azimol unmolested then they'd have adequate fuel and/or torpedos to decline battle with the Loroi forces there, traverse the system at high speed (while accepting any passing losses) and jump for the next Loroi system. Tiktak is probably just stalling for time here, trying to keep the 51st from withdrawing any sooner than they have to. And if this seems like a weird way to do it... well, the Loroi in Naam are tired. They would have withdrawn already if not but the Bell, so the Umiak may just be trying to leverage their good-fortune for all it's worth. If they have any interest in the Bell itself, it may just be because they see every other species as a threat. So a newly discovered species is always going to be important to them.

And- heh- yeah, I'm new here. Been reading for a while, but man cannot live by lurking alone.

[osmium]

The difficulty in bypassing in a system, especially Umiak vs the Loroi is that they can
( and likely will if it looks like you're trying to leave the system) match your velocity and give chase outside of weapons range pummeling you for the whole time your engine's are charging and then if you jump they'll just follow suit. There will likely be defenders in the system in question as well and then you've got to deal with two fleets, obviously you could hope to overwhelm the scattered Loroi fleet the moment they jump in with tons of torpedoes and deal some damage, but really I don't think that damage would out-weigh what you would have to take to get through the system in the first place. The Umiak don't have convenient clouds to hide in and gain large velocity differentials without tipping off the Loroi commander.

-O

[anticarrot]

I highly doubt human sensors would be able to detect this jamming signal

But they *did* get a very good look at the enemy ship. That information probably is recoverable. Hmm. I wonder what Barstrum ships look like? I assume humans aren't the only ones chomping at the bit to get better technology. And Raigi Mozin did seem awfully keen on removing the witness... I mean survivor, from the sysem.

It might also answer why the Umiak are so confident they can steamroller Amizol. Inside job? Yes they are supposedly loyal, but Insider gives the impression they they don't have much of a voice. Some of them might have gotten tired of that.

@Drek:
Pretty much my thoughts as well about pinning the Loroi in place. Now they have confirmation of the presence of alien wreckage, they don't need to fight. Or at least not with as much urgency. Given their history, they probably want to know if they can steal any interesting technology from it.

[Mjolnir]

Given their history, they probably want to know if they can steal any interesting technology from it.

It's more like jealousy than greed, I think. Their civilization started out pushed into the sidelines and regarded as unsophisticated barbarians by a more advanced one. They don't want to be inferior in any way...and if someone else has something that seems to be of value, they want it, whether they understand its value or not. And if the Storm Witch wants it...

[Rokas]

or some other inflammatory rhetoric like our Gorbachev's famously mistranslated "We Will Bury you!"

FTFY

Khrushchev. It was Khrushchev. You fix one thing and leave such a glaring wrongness?

I still question the "mistranslation" bit; it took them, what? 50, 60 years to correct it? (Yes I read that Cracked.com article too. ) Meh, not important, I guess.

And yes I created an account just to correct that. It affected my pedantic node that badly.

How many more italics will I use?

Anyway, if I recall correctly (and if no one else has mentioned it - I only skimmed the last half of posts) please remember that the Umiak were not undetected in the proplyd, they were just reported at numbers and dispositions significantly off from the "Farseeing Device"'s usual impeccable accuracy. If the Umiak are deploying a jamming device of some sort it doesn't seem to be 100% effective, and the Loroi would still see any fleet coming at them. I would think a fleet large enough to take a fortress system/planet/space station/coffee shop would be harder yet to hide from any sensor, telepathy-based or not. Knowing that, would the Umiak deploy as Kikitik-27 suggests? Knowing your enemy would still see you coming, regardless of how much you hide your numbers, wouldn't that place you at square one? Since after all they can still pick you up as you make your approach, which is exactly the same condition the war's been in for some time now.

The only way what he's saying would make sense is if they deliberately lured the Loroi fleets there by operating their jammer on a selective 'low power' setting. But as I recall, Tempo mentioned that their fleet is merely an interceptor and raider, not meant for defense, that they have separate fleets for that. Waylaying the raider fleets will draw off opponent strength by reducing reinforcements, yes, but if you can't get the normal defenders out of position you're still slamming against the same brick wall you were at before. Maybe you'll make more headway, but is that really going to be enough? Furthermore, is it really to your strategic advantage to throw away a surprise in an attack method that history has shown to be ineffective?

Then again, I have not poured over the supplemental material as thoroughly as I might have, so I do not know exactly how viciously effective the interceptor fleets have been in blunting attack thrusts. In my mind I can't see them doing much since the sense I've gotten from the story and the extra fluff I have read indicate the Loroi favor quick slashing attacks that either end decisively or result in their forces pulling away before the Umiak can pound them into submission. I admit that is helpful, but in a raiding group configured specifically for speed and firepower, I can't see them being that significant as a defending force. When you're protecting an objective that can't move, you don't run and slash, you stand toe to toe with your foe and beat the snot out of each other until the first one cries "uncle." As we saw when the 51st stood and made the Umiak pay with blood and steel. Or ichor and tri-layered titanium, whatever.

So, either Krikkit boy is bluffing, or the Umiak have been building up for years for a full court press.

...Given the story line and what Arioch's done so far, I'd say something like the latter, which will make the 51st retreat- er, "tactically withdraw" to threatened systems and also to carry away information about the Umiak. Alex will be additional baggage who will no doubt become central to the dire events as the Loroi face obliteration. How? Lord and Arioch only know (unless the latter's confided in some others), but overall it's starting to shape up nicely. We have a clear apocalyptic threat, the titular "outsider", and some mysterious connection if not directly between humanity and the Loroi, then at least something in our common physiological structures that has been hinted at.

So yeah. Good comic, dude. Keep it up.

Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umiak Related? Coincidence?

[Trantor]

Hm. Communicating friendly and humble...
-> Umiak intel is playing the odds. They received some of Alex´s transmission. Partly in Trade-language. They found out that the Bell was a new party in the game. Maybe they put their "nice face" on the shop window because they assume that the survivor witnesses it?

-The reason for the Umiak insistence on negotiation? They know perfectly well that while the Lotai shouldn't have been able to see them, the unknown 3rd party who wandered into the battle should have been detected.

This, too.


Also: Why they´re buying time?

[fredgiblet]

Anyway, if I recall correctly (and if no one else has mentioned it - I only skimmed the last half of posts) please remember that the Umiak were not undetected in the proplyd, they were just reported at numbers and dispositions significantly off from the "Farseeing Device"'s usual impeccable accuracy. If the Umiak are deploying a jamming device of some sort it doesn't seem to be 100% effective, and the Loroi would still see any fleet coming at them. I would think a fleet large enough to take a fortress system/planet/space station/coffee shop would be harder yet to hide from any sensor, telepathy-based or not. Knowing that, would the Umiak deploy as Kikitik-27 suggests? Knowing your enemy would still see you coming, regardless of how much you hide your numbers, wouldn't that place you at square one? Since after all they can still pick you up as you make your approach, which is exactly the same condition the war's been in for some time now.

Not at all. If the Umiak can conceal their major assault force as a regular assault force then they can achieve a breakthrough without needing total surprise. In fact it would likely be better to do so as leaving the Loroi Navy largely untouched would invite a counterattack that could leave you surrounded. In my mind it would actually be BETTER for them to not be totally invisible since a strike force that apperas smaller but still notable will draw a number of Loroi ships in for the slaughter, somewhat riskier perhaps, but more rewarding.

[NOMAD]

Not at all. If the Umiak can conceal their major assault force as a regular assault force then they can achieve a breakthrough without needing total surprise. In fact it would likely be better to do so as leaving the Loroi Navy largely untouched would invite a counterattack that could leave you surrounded. In my mind it would actually be BETTER for them to not be totally invisible since a strike force that apperas smaller but still notable will draw a number of Loroi ships in for the slaughter, somewhat riskier perhaps, but more rewarding.

Ah since the Loroi rely on their far-seer to determine rough numbers and send in enough ships ( and using the above action) send in a smaller force then is needed ( and thus gut wiped out) ( sry to post the obvious but this does make alot of sense).

As for for wjy kil-27 is stalling, maybe it relates to the tactical situation were going to see soon .

[osmium]

Then again, I have not poured over the supplemental material as thoroughly as I might have, so I do not know exactly how viciously effective the interceptor fleets have been in blunting attack thrusts. In my mind I can't see them doing much since the sense I've gotten from the story and the extra fluff I have read indicate the Loroi favor quick slashing attacks that either end decisively or result in their forces pulling away before the Umiak can pound them into submission. I admit that is helpful, but in a raiding group configured specifically for speed and firepower, I can't see them being that significant as a defending force. When you're protecting an objective that can't move, you don't run and slash, you stand toe to toe with your foe and beat the snot out of each other until the first one cries "uncle." As we saw when the 51st stood and made the Umiak pay with blood and steel. Or ichor and tri-layered titanium, whatever.

Hits are generally kill shots. A single "clash" could result in a significant (although not usually major) percentage of the enemy fleet being shot down. When the loroi stand their ground all that happens is they lose ships too. The Umiak need to traverse through a multiple jump deep zone of nothing to get at the Loroi. The interdiction fleets (fast attack / interception) can basically swat at them a number of times. To use loose numbers let's say 5% damage for a pass or two (what you'll get in system before you have to break off or engage fully), if the Umiak need to make 4 jumps the Loroi have a chance to eliminate 20% of that fleet for "free" (i.e. small Loroi losses, some expenditure of ordinance and energy and such). I didn't go back, but you can find the fleet layout of that Umiak strike force and you can figure out what 2 or 3 ships was as a percentage, my bet is that it's higher than 5% (for 1 clash or joust).
-O

[anticarrot]

and if someone else has something that seems to be of value, they want it, whether they understand its value or not. And if the Storm Witch wants it...

Imagine the following line in a WWII film. American soldier: "I don't know what it is, but if the Germans/Japs want it, let's blow it up/steal it!" Is the American soldier also jealous?

In a wider sense though, yes that would explain the war. I assumed that it was 'existential fear' for both sides. Both suddenly found themselves facing an equal civilisation, which *could* pose a threat, and that possibility was intollerable.

One possible good reason why they might wish to negotiate is that unless they intend to exterminate the Loroi completely, they will need a someone to rule over the survivors. They know the Stormwitch would try and screw them the first chance she got, but they also know that if the Loroi economy was confined to a single system she would never get that chance. (Without fuel, her ship is a glorified paperweight.) And that as a war hero, the Loroi would probably accept her. A 'well ordered reservation/prison camp' probably has some appeal to the Umiak mindset. "See! We were the civilised ones after all!"

[dex drako]

But they *did* get a very good look at the enemy ship. That information probably is recoverable.

we're unlikely to see any black box data from the bell.

this story isn't so much about the war as it is about who destroyed the bell. it seems to me if it was only a Umiak ship, special or not, there wouldn't be this big mystery about it. but Arioch has gone out of his way to leave us guessing about that ship which means it's reveal will likely turn change the direction of the plot.

kind of like finding out the villain hidden in the shadows or so long was really the hero's best friend.

Besides knowing all of the different ways a computer can be made (binary, trinary, quantum and lets not even get into coding.) it should be next to impossible for the two system to talk to one another.

[anticarrot]

we're unlikely to see any black box data from the bell.

True enough. But there will have been a *lot* of computers on the Bell. Given reasonable advances a lot of them probably survived. When the Loroi were over there on salvage they probably grabbed enough to cobble a working system together. Given how badly the whole mind probe business went, they'll probably at least try, just to varify what Alex is telling them - and to find out what he isn't. I can easily see Stillstorm persuing this course of action out of spite - and Beryl persuing it out of boundless enthusiasm.

[Aygar]

My guess is that the umiak have is a Soia relic, as opposed to a device that was produced from the Umiak's developing a better understanding of what the farseers is actually doing. As such I would expect the availability of such a device would be severely limited due to duplication issues.

--Aygar

[elorran]

The panel with the umiak ship facing side on, the front section distinctly reminds me of the shape of the kadesh drone fighter from homeworld during the first diplomatic encounter. More homage art?

[Mayhem]

My guess is that the umiak have is a Soia relic

I hadn't thought of that.

A handful of relics that they can't duplicate has story telling possibilities.

The kind of relic you might keep on a sneaky fast ship far from the combat.
A ship that might destroy any strange vessel that happens to jump in nearby,
only to then run away without investigating the wreckage (in order to keep the relic safe).

---

I was wondering if Farseers could detect Umiak that are in a coma / suspended animation.

If not then the Umiak could send a large fleet with most of the crew in suspended animation while only reading as a handful of ships, which is consistent with Tempo's remarks on page 59.

The enemy fleet was larger than expected, and had dispersed in this system and was lying in wait for us.

They could have even used previous strikes to smuggle part of the fleet in the system with the computers programmed to wake them up on a prearranged schedule.


If they trust their computers enough to wake them when the sensors detect anything outside of a programmed "normal" system crossing then they could smuggle a massive fleet through the Steppes by waking up a single ship's skeleton crew to programme the jump into the next system, review the sensors of the new system to make sure it is safe to cross on autopilot, program in the "normal" rule set then go back to sleep.

A handful of people awake for a few hours once every week or two.