Page 88

[Nemo]

If they'd been attempting to test the jammer through battle, don't you think the Loroi would notice fleets being destroyed? Hell, fleets coming back damaged, and reporting enemies where they shouldn't be.
The most forward intelligence you have in trench warfare are your raiding parties.

The raiding parties are dispatched to strike at fleets observed by farseer. You march a fleet under the cover of this jamming into the steppes. No response, the Loroi didnt see you and you come back. No combat, you tested it against their predictability, and the Loroi don't know a thing about it.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

The raiding parties are dispatched to strike at fleets observed by farseer. You march a fleet under the cover of this jamming into the steppes. No response, the Loroi didnt see you and you come back. No combat, you tested it against their predictability, and the Loroi don't know a thing about it.

This.

With Farseer Lotai seemingly being so reliable, the Loroi have probably only seen minimal need to actually extensively scout out the Steppes with regular patrols.

[Wintermute]

All the entry points must be accounted for in a defense scheme; raiding aside, if an enemy can get a significant force past your front lines into undefended territory, the war is over.

"Our [Khalkha Divisions] have penetrated deeply into enemy territory and will soon have bypassed [The Azimol Citadel]."

If Kikitik is telling the truth, it will not be "end game" for the Loroi, it will be "game over."

They may be able to repel the Umiak divisions eventually, but not before massive war-course-altering damage has been dealt.

[elizibar]

The raiding parties are dispatched to strike at fleets observed by farseer. You march a fleet under the cover of this jamming into the steppes. No response, the Loroi didnt see you and you come back. No combat, you tested it against their predictability, and the Loroi don't know a thing about it.

This.

With Farseer Lotai seemingly being so reliable, the Loroi have probably only seen minimal need to actually extensively scout out the Steppes with regular patrols.

Or to try and build a conventional intelligence gathering operating in Umiak space, for that matter.

[Serkr Team]

For what it's worth I don't think you can take Kikitik-27 as a typical member of the Umiak race. Going by the Insider, which I assume is written from a non-Loroi or unbiased point of view, 27 displays several traits that might even be considered rare. For starters he (or she/it I'll go with he) commands from a super-heavy class ship as opposed to the less noticeable, modest vessels most Umiak leaders would lead from to avoid becoming a target. Umiak in general don't seem to be individualistic, but Kikitik-27 refers to himself several times. Quoting directly from the insider, "Personal honor is a low priority". Although there isn't any way of really saying either way I'd say from his behaviour so far this isn't true for Kikitik.

Obviously there are exceptions within a whole species. Kikitik does seem very well-mannered and polite, which most Umiak are as individuals. Most of what we've seen from Kikitik as compared to Umiak in general are minor differences from the norm, but I'm willing to bet it adds up to something. I don't think anyone can deny he definitely qualifies for Magnificent Bastard status.

Also, awesome superheavy is awesome.

[Tash]

Point, that would be a more than adequate method of testing a technology.
Thanks for correcting me. ;>>

Hmm. What if the Umiak are actually (in comparable terms) the 'good guys'? If you think about it, they are more industrious, less concerned about honour, pragmatic, willing to accept surrender, individually pleasant, collectively xenophobic, and rather bad for the enviroment.

You forgot revanchist, authoritarian, and lacking in individuality, which sounds a hell of a lot more like the Soviet Union to me. Hell, their doctrine is fundamentally Soviet; they're not dumb bugs incapable of anything beyond a bumrush, but that is the tactic they prefer to use, forcing their way through enemy lines with sheer numbers and close firepower, ignoring the losses because they can absorb them. Some, like tictac-27, will withdraw from battle when it doesn't seem favorable, but they're not ones for grand maneuvers and complex plans. Smash the enemy, preferably with more firepower than you need, because it's simple and hard to screw up/hard to fall to the winds of fate.

I personally find Loroi to be preferable, but I'm a massive fascist, so an empire of totalitarian space elves appeals to me. :<

@Rosen_Ritter_1
Because they're people, not hollywood movie monsters? I ask you to put one good reason forwards why they wouldn't be highly interested in space wreckage from an unknown species. Or be so willing to die pointlessly and not have a tiny shred of self preservation? Look funny and talk funny don't count.

Sure they do.
You're assuming alien psychology is comparable to human- or for that matter, Loroi- psychology.
They are not a hive mind, but they don't prize individuality; everyone is a cog in the machine.
A machine is expendable, and the cogs with it; it's an honor to serve and die if your death has a point.
We- or Loroi- might consider wasting thousands of lives to confirm that yes, that is an unidentified wreck, a ridiculously expensive endeavor. Not so for a species like this. The meaning of a death is subjective.

They're likely less interested in the fact that this is an unknown wreck, and more interested in the fact that a heavily outnumbered raiding unit is doggedly defending it rather than blowing it and running away.
It may be because of respect and curiousity about Stillstorm's intentions, or it may be worry that Loroi have found something to tip the balance of the war.
Umiak are too smart to leave things to chance, I figure.

But how will they know where the Umiak supply lines are without the farsensing device?

By scouting with ships, I assume. They do have sensors. It's not like the Umiak can just come in from anywhere; in order to make safe jumps, they have to choose from a few vectors, am I correct? Scout them, and hit them with raiders.

No, it's certainly not as precise as the farsensing device, but it's something Loroi are perfectly capable of doing.

Is the farsensing jammer a universal piece of equipment, on every ship or every large ship, or is it, as Geomodder suggests, carried by a standard bearing ship?
That's the big question; what is the nature of this device and how widespread is it?

[GeoModder]

Ah, a (mechanical?) counter to the Loroi farseeing ability is more or less confirmed.
Now I wonder if the Bellarmine kinda "surprised" the Umiak ship carrying the "cloaking device". That would sure be reason enough for the Umiak to take the "Bell" out ASAP.

Except they don't need to negotiate with the Loroi for that. They could have just attempted to destroy it when they came in, or move in with enough force that the Loroi would have been forced to destroy it. There's nothing the Umiak can do about the knowledge the Loroi have already gained from the Bell, since the Task Force has to much speed to be pinned and destroyed.

I'm talking about what happened to the Bellarmine on page 7 of the prologue, not the current show-off starting from page 86.

[icekatze]

hi hi

It was my understanding that Farseers don't transmit their findings via long distance telepathy. They have super sensitive detection, but sending a message over that long a distance would be so telepathically loud that it would seriously damage, if not kill, all the other Loroi nearby (assuming they even had that capability). Farseers detect life from a distance and that information is relayed in person via normal means. That is why the Tempest has a Farseer on board, because they cannot get intel from farseers located safely at home.

If the Umiak do indeed have a reliable Farshielding™ technology, their current fleet likely brought some purposefully unshielded ships along as bait. However, while the Loroi have been tied up with skirmishes in the Steppes, the Umiak could have been building and fortifying a supply line for a long time. As has been said, the Umiak don't seem to be in any rush. They could have made this discovery years ago and been patiently biding their time ever since. With a robust supply line, the might not even need to jump into the Azimol system. They could potentially go around and strike core systems.

Whether or not they are actually making a larger attack, Stillstorm must know that such a thing is possible without their ability to farsee. By the time the Loroi do see the Umiak coming, there may well be a panic as various commands try to piece together what is going on across potentially numerous fronts as well as figure out how to counter it with their probably obsolete conventional intel gathering system.

Now, I doubt that the Loroi are just going to fold like a house of cards. Emperor Greywind is supposedly a shrewd character, but they would likely need something big to turn the tide back in their favor from such an attack. However, either way you cut it (success or failure), Mr. Carapace here is probably right about the fact that it is too late for Stillstorm to do anything about it.

Personal honor may be a low priority, but from what Mr. Shell says, it sounds like there aren't many other pressing priorities vying for his attention at the moment.

Even this communication may be serving a purpose of further delaying Stillstorm's departure. If Stillstorm knows that the Umiak want it, she might be more inclined to waste time further searching the wreckage. (A wreckage that the Umiak may have no real interest in at all) The Umiak supposedly didn't even really know what it was until they made the highly sacrificial attack and got close up scans of it.

One thing that just crossed my mind: Maybe this "boarding action," that has been implied is going to be the Tempest boarding one of the Umiak ships. I had always kind of assumed that it would be the Umiak boarding the Tempest, but Stillstorm has a distinct cause to try to verify some of those claims by finding some intact Umiak hard drives.

[Serkr Team]

One thing that just crossed my mind: Maybe this "boarding action," that has been implied is going to be the Tempest boarding one of the Umiak ships. I had always kind of assumed that it would be the Umiak boarding the Tempest, but Stillstorm has a distinct cause to try to verify some of those claims by finding some intact Umiak hard drives.

Boarding action? Where was this mentioned?

[dfacto]

One thing that just crossed my mind: Maybe this "boarding action," that has been implied is going to be the Tempest boarding one of the Umiak ships. I had always kind of assumed that it would be the Umiak boarding the Tempest, but Stillstorm has a distinct cause to try to verify some of those claims by finding some intact Umiak hard drives.

Unless humans have some sort of psychic anti-Umiak cooties I really doubt the Loroi can just casually board a ship in the middle of a fleet formation. Maybe under the guise of a surrender, but that would be a one way trip.

[AndrejaKo]

I've seen it mentioned several times in this thread that Umiak force that died fighting Loroi died for the wreck. I'd like to challenge that idea.

If we take a look at what KIKITIK-27 says, we'll see that in fourth panel he clearly says that their orders are to delay the Loroi raiding groups until main force can reach the other side of the steppes. If he's telling the truth, the Umiak who fought over the derelict didn't die just to see what the derelict looks like. They died in order to disrupt Loroi operations in the area an would have died even if the wreckage wasn't there. Bellarmine if just a bonus objective for them, from what I can see.

@Serkr Team In one of the previous threads, Arioch hinted that we might see something that may look like a boarding action. I'll see if I can dig up the specific post.
UPDATE: It's mentioned here: http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 1745#p1745 and again here:http://www.well-of-souls.com/forums/vie ... 1858#p1858

[icekatze]

hi hi

Unless humans have some sort of psychic anti-Umiak cooties I really doubt the Loroi can just casually board a ship in the middle of a fleet formation. Maybe under the guise of a surrender, but that would be a one way trip.

I was thinking more along the lines of Stillstorm aggressively initiating combat and sorting through the wrecks. Maybe not very likely, but then again, neither are boarding operations in general. At the very least, she now has the motive, should a chance opportunity present itself.

[dfacto]

I was thinking more along the lines of Stillstorm aggressively initiating combat and sorting through the wrecks. Maybe not very likely, but then again, neither are boarding operations in general. At the very least, she now has the motive, should a chance opportunity present itself.

I believe Arioch said the wave-loom would not be used anytime soon, so there's no chance the Loroi could take on tictac-27 and have any wrecks to sort through.

Needless to say, I'm pretty curious to see what he was talking about with "boarding action"

[fredgiblet]

Boarding action? Where was this mentioned?

There's been a significant amount of talk about us seeing close combat with Beryl, Fireblade and Tempo. There's not going to be much opportunity to do that without a boarding action of some sort.

[GeoModder]

hi hi

It was my understanding that Farseers don't transmit their findings via long distance telepathy. They have super sensitive detection, but sending a message over that long a distance would be so telepathically loud that it would seriously damage, if not kill, all the other Loroi nearby (assuming they even had that capability). Farseers detect life from a distance and that information is relayed in person via normal means. That is why the Tempest has a Farseer on board, because they cannot get intel from farseers located safely at home.

If the Umiak do indeed have a reliable Farshielding™ technology, their current fleet likely brought some purposefully unshielded ships along as bait. However, while the Loroi have been tied up with skirmishes in the Steppes, the Umiak could have been building and fortifying a supply line for a long time. As has been said, the Umiak don't seem to be in any rush. They could have made this discovery years ago and been patiently biding their time ever since. With a robust supply line, the might not even need to jump into the Azimol system. They could potentially go around and strike core systems.

For "routine" messaging I'd agree that a farseer won't be used to sent information, but for important intel like the enemy having a device rendering the farseer detection obselete, I'd be the first to put out a warning. Also, it is my understanding that a farseer has his/her abilities augmented by the help of technology. So for all I know it could be possible to farsent a message through equipment while the rest of the crew is shielded from it.

On the nature of the Umiak 'lotai', I had thought of equipment installed on a single vessel capable of shielding the complete system it is in, even if a sensitive enemy is inside the system.

The Umiak seem to have built up a sizeable strike force in Naam for sure, and have it regularly supplied. It is still a superior fleet even after 'dallying' in at least 4 skirmishes with Loroi strike groups, but I doubt there's an easy way past Azimol according to the holographic map on page 59.

[dfacto]

If farsensing is instant, the perhaps it is connected to hyperspace, and the Umiak accidentally discovered how to disrupt it with a new model of jump engine.

[osmium]

My two points: 1) from the insider remember that the loroi communicated and fought with each other (on different planets) before the advent of the tech required to actually visit said worlds. I'd put my money on the Loroi knowing everything the Umiak have said. And unlike farseers the Umiak likely know very little about other specific workings of Loroi psionics, save what was common knowledge pre-war.

2)I think the supply line will be a huge issue. The Umiak are *ruining* planets, sucking them dry and fighting everyone they get near, I see them as the roman empire in search of their germans. The roads (supply line) will not get any better (likely) and their territories continue to get larger. This can be a fragile position to be in, as both the roman and ottoman empire collapsed for similar reasons. Once the empire gets too big oppressed people will realize that they only need to defeat the local army, which may not be that large in internal worlds. Also to note, the loss of the farseers only really means that the Loroi will need to give up land and move further away (to the extend possible), as the Umiak are literally hemorrhaging economic output, sure the Umiak are winning in the numbers game, but they are almost gambling on being able to maintain their output and their output is dependent on acquisitions, inefficient supply chains and a variety of oppressed races. While this may be a win in the small war the umiak are seemingly better at, but much more vulnerable to losing via the big war. If the Loroi generate a larger steppes (through a combination of their own planets and perhaps some of the Umiak front line planets if they play their cards right), then the Umiak will have to spend energy on say 10 jumps before their combat forces can get to the Loroi forces this is not an insignificant differential in the cost of running the war, saying nothing on the Umiak's wasteful tactics, nor their heavy usage of torpedoes...

The Loroi certainly need to repel this supposed huge assault and they need to find some tactical positioning that allows them to form a similar defensive pattern as the Umiak (probably with a few systems intowhich they can perform fighting retreats to allow for resupply, recovery and to soften the Umiak fleet up with similar tactics the raider groups used.

Also remember that the Loroi have a ton of ships in reserve, fleets of them. Significantly more than they committed to the Steppes. The raider groups were just sort of last year's models kept in good shape (actually the left over from the failed somoset? camaign)

Also just to note my take on tictak-27 now is that he appears to be a good commander because he might actually retreat. That sort of underwhelms me if that is his claim to fame as a commander.

-O

[dex drako]

well if you think about it if the Umiak ships have a jammer on board then there will have to be loroi boarding action at some point. the loroi need to get there hands on one to find out how it works much like how the allied forces tried to capture the enigma machine in WWII.

not that it would be easy to do here but its possible.

[icekatze]

hi hi

You make a good point Dex Drako, however, before Stillstorm would think to do something like that, I believe she needs to be convinced that she doesn't already have one of said devices sitting on a bench right behind her. If you catch my meaning.

[Grayhome]

I think the Umiak will oblige the Loroi in this case and bring the psi-jammer aboard the Tempest in a bit. Smaller scale and with a few dozen hard troopers to round out the party.