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Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
icekatze wrote:
I can think of a number of social structures I would rank below theirs, anyways.
politicians?


Thu Jul 30, 2015 9:51 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Sweforce wrote:
icekatze wrote:
I can think of a number of social structures I would rank below theirs, anyways.
politicians?

I am going to go with furry pornographers

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Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
dragoongfa wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
icekatze wrote:
I can think of a number of social structures I would rank below theirs, anyways.
politicians?

I am going to go with furry pornographers


The Loroi Imperial XenoAnthropological Society will have a lot to dig into. More suggestions of where to point their studies folks?


Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:48 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
hi hi

I think everyone's got a little bit of weirdness to them, and that's alright. Terran social groups that I would rank below the Amish include fascists, people who try to subjugate others through force, hate groups, and those who try to subvert social protections for their own short term, selfish gain; just to name a few.


Thu Jul 30, 2015 4:34 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
As pacifistic people who value the nature as nurturing them, I would put the Amish rather far up the ladder of list of Terran social groups.
They may, by choice, not be that happy about "non-believers", but they are not really pushy about their belief (they don't try to force their believe on you).

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Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Its certainly an interesting sociocultural sub-group but on the other hand they do sacrifice a lot of modern benefits for their austere way of life. Certainly better than other human sociocultural sub-groups but they aren't anything more than a non contributing novelty in the grand scheme of things.

Aliens cultures that value utility and social contribution would see them as wasteful at the very least and parasitic at the worse.

Alien cultures that value pacifism and have widespread acceptance of divergent and peaceful lifestyles would see them as an ideal society.

It all depends on how one sees the world.

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Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:35 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Social contribution: I consider living so that you preserve nature's resources quite a social contribution. We could learn a lot from the Amish, like slowing down....
But we prefer living by a clock, and investing our hurry into personal leisure.
We also do not need to fly across half the planet, just because we feel better having done a holiday down-under than in Slovenia (central/northern Europe), which from my point of view just shows as much diversity in Nature and Culture than down-under can offer.
The Amish teach that missing something is not that bad. You will find something else fun to do, once your chores are done. Work comes first, then leisure. Business first, then play.

But our cars get bigger with every new model, we don't even drive them until they're broken anymore; and it needs to be an upper-class car, because we don't want our neighbour to think....
Our bottled water needs to be Italian water.
Our bed frames and office desks need to be made from tropic woods.
We need to go skiing in the winter.
We need to go for summer holidays in the US.
[insert whatever status symbol you see people chasing for]

We might not listen much to the Amish, they still show us by example that you can live a happy life not pursuing those (questionable) goals.

Not free of guilt myself...
I don't consider them sins though.


And I really cannot see the Amish as parasitic. They are very self-sustaining. They actually sell quite a chunk of what they grow, proving that as farmers they are quite efficient, despite not obeying "modern agrarian rules of tons of fertilisers and herbicides".
Okay, they rely on the government of the US, and the Colonial Union to defend them from outer aggressions, but then they might not be in any line of fire without those governments... Their lifestyle does not attract pirates and other thieves.

It is as you said:
dragoongfa wrote:
It all depends on how one sees the world.

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Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:17 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
People tend to focus on the quaint anti-technology aspect of Amish culture, and overlook the fact that it is a fundamentalist religious sect. Peaceful, yes, but as oppressive to its own members as any cult you can think of.

It's none of my business what people do with themselves in their own homes, and so it's not for me to say how people should choose to live. But I do not find anything cute or quaint about religious Luddism.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Well said Arioch


Fri Jul 31, 2015 1:16 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
hi hi

There are lots of misunderstandings about Amish people that get circulated in popular culture and national media. There are a number of different sects of Amish that can have some rather different beliefs, from Old Order to New Order.

Around where I live, they are really are not oppressive to their own members like a cult. In fact, they require their children to leave home and experience life in the wider society when they are old enough, so they can make a better informed decision about whether they want to participate in that community or not.

They're not perfect, I wouldn't want to join them, but they are human beings just like the rest of us.


Fri Jul 31, 2015 2:34 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
icekatze wrote:
They're not perfect, I wouldn't want to join them, but they are human beings just like the rest of us.

I don't think anyone here would suggest otherwise. My remark about sentience was merely a cheap joke.

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Fri Jul 31, 2015 4:02 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Most Amish sects support the "rumspringa" time for their youth.
You have to obey certain rules while you're "jumping around", otherwise you cannot return (so do nothing that can put you in jail, no tatoos), but otherwise they will turn a blind eye to most things you did during that time, if they get found out...

But if you decide to stay after that time, you basically forfeit your chance to demand less stricter rules.
You can work yourself up to respectable positions with the local group, and thus you might be able to soften the interpretation of some rules, but staying was your own choice.
A slanted start thogu: you know that if you decide to leave, your friends and family will turn their backs to you and there will be no return without an even higher price to pay...

(not wanting to join the Amish either, but they are good role-models. They mind their own business, keep to their rules, not enforcing them on outsiders...)

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Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:18 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Quote:
they are good role-models


In my experience no Christian faction has ever come anywhere close to being good roll models. Nor any other group, religious or otherwise, that holds blind faith and obedience as having sway over evidence, reason and logic. The damage that the Amish cause is marginally limited to themselves, so that makes them less of a problem than other religious factions, but it is still damage and they are still causing it.

These people do vote, and their votes are based on a 2000+ year old book that was written by superstitious, illiterate, ignorant, terrified desert nomads. That causes a GREAT deal of harm to the nation which they are a part of.

They (and many other religious factions) also allow their children to die from preventable diseases rather than allow them access to medical care, trusting in the power of prayer over science.

I cannot respect that. I simply cannot honestly bring myself to respect such a people. I am simply not capable of it, and I find myself very wary of anyone who says they respect the Amish or any other such group.


Sat Aug 01, 2015 4:13 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
hi hi

Well, sometimes I just don't get the joke, sometimes I think I must take things too seriously, but other times it seems like people are being serious.

I don't mind if people have different opinions about things than I do. I realize that I probably have a different point of view than a lot of people here, at least. But when it comes to presenting facts, I do try to make sure what I am presenting is accurate.

Greyhome, are you saying that you've been gathering personally identifiable data on people's voting records? I'm pretty sure that's illegal. At least in the United States, West Virginia is the only state which still allows open ballots as an option. I find it an extraordinary claim to say that one knows exactly what the Amish are voting for, and that it cause great harm to the country they live in. I find it especially extraordinary coming from someone promoting evidence and reason, when the evidence says that the Amish don't regularly vote. When 13% of the Amish population in Lancaster voted in 2004, it was after a 169% rise in new registrations from the previous year, after a large and expensive campaign to get it.

And as a proponent of democracy in general, I find the notion that people should not vote for what they believe in, and that people doing so is dangerous, to be anathema.
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If there be time to expose through discussion the falsehood and fallacies, to avert the evil by the processes of education, the remedy to be applied is more speech, not enforced silence.
- Louis Brandeis

I also find claims about the Amish's medical practices to be extraordinary, considering that the Amish do see doctors when it is necessary. Especially in comparison to the USA in general where, even with the Affordable Care Act, some 16.6% of Americans under 65 still don't have access to health insurance. Thats over 45 million, and using the Massachusetts rate of 830 to 1 over a 4 year period, that's still about 13.7 thousand people every year whose deaths could be prevented if we had universal health care.
Quote:
Their life expectancy is actually similar to the general US population, average life expectancy is in the mid-70s, that's actually very interesting from a number of standpoints, because for one thing, they tend not to use modern medical care very much... Well for the most part the Amish don't like to use modern medical care, but they will if they have to. They will go to hospitals and will go to seek physicians if they absolutely need to. But on the whole, they don't believe in prevention, they'll only go to a doctor if there's a problem.
Alan Shuldiner, Professor and Head of Endocrinology, Diabetes and Nutrition, University of Maryland School of Medicine.

I find myself very wary of any claim that says being religious necessarily precludes a person or group of people from being good or respectable. If people like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, or Nelson Mandela cannot be considered role models, I wonder if any human being can.

Anyways, on the topic of Outsider, I don't suppose the proven existence of aliens has shaken up the various religions on Earth. I've always wondered what that kind of reveal might do to people's world views.


Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:29 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Ahahahahahahahah oh my sides! Oh someone make him stop this is too much!

Quote:
If people like Dr. Martin Luther King Jr., Galileo Galilei, René Descartes, or Nelson Mandela cannot be considered role models, I wonder if any human being can.



Hitler, Osama Bin Laden, Hirohito, Mother Teresa.

Check it out, I can do that too. Grant it for one side you must grant it for the other, but I wouldn't be able to expect that from religious cultists who are trained since before they could walk or talk to not examine their religion critically.


Sat Aug 01, 2015 6:48 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
hi hi

If I had made the argument that being religious necessarily makes someone moral and just, those examples of people would have been relevant. However, I made -and continue to make- no such claim, and as a consequence, those examples of people are irrelevant to my argument.

A Deductive Argument
• no Christian faction has ever come anywhere close to being good roll[sic] models.
• Martin Luther King Jr. and his congregation were a Christian faction
• Martin Luther King Jr. and his congregation has not come anywhere close to being good role models.

I deny the conclusion, and therefore I find the first premise to be false, where the second premise is verified by historical documents.


Sat Aug 01, 2015 7:46 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
icekatze wrote:
Anyways, on the topic of Outsider, I don't suppose the proven existence of aliens has shaken up the various religions on Earth. I've always wondered what that kind of reveal might do to people's world views.

Religion has shown itself to be largely impervious to logical arguments and evidence. When an inconvenient fact shows itself, some will refuse to believe it, and others will find ways to tapdance around it. I think that many Christian "scholars" already readily admit that the Bible is not word-for-word true, instead describing it as abstract, inspired poetry. Aliens could be worked into such a framework in a wide variety of ways. I'd guess that there are probably cases in which this has already been done.

But I don't really see the existence of aliens as a direct challenge to religion. There may be an issue in which some religious sects may hold that since humans are in "the image of God" that aliens may not be considered to have souls, but I imagine that these rulings will be widely various and will have little to do with logic or the technicality of religious writing, and everything to do with the xenophobia and intolerance of particular groups.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
hi hi

I suppose it might take a while for logical arguments and evidence to chip away preconceptions. Still, I would wager that things could change over time. I mean, outside of a few fringe groups, most people don't think the Earth is flat anymore, or that the Sun orbits the Earth, when those used to be almost ubiquitously held ideas. But why beliefs like that fall by the wayside, but others like young earth persist, well, I guess I'm no expert so I won't propose an explanation.

Perhaps there would be a significant movement of people believing the records were faked, which might last up until the hostile ships arrive in orbit and start disembarking troops. :P


Sat Aug 01, 2015 9:14 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
But the existence of aliens doesn't directly challenge religious doctrine. Presumably the aliens were created by God at the same time as everything else.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
I like to amuse myself looking at TV Tropes. The "Fantastic Racism" trope apparently now have a "real life" section regarding aliens. http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/M ... sticRacism


Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:12 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Alien life and the suspected influence on religion:
Vatican astronomer about alien life and its conclusions to the extistance of god or no god.
I first saw the article on a German news site, and just googled an English version.
This one's on a Christian site, so expect it to be slanted...
But I found it interesting non the less.

And I find we can drop discussions about certain religious groups alltogether.
We will not find consent here. Beliefs are strong in any direction....

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Sun Aug 02, 2015 2:35 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Honestly, I think opinions about alien life from a religious perspective are as slanted by one's personal beliefs as much as they are by their religious beliefs. The fact that most people tend to cherry pick their religious documents to validate their own personal beliefs rather than reading what's in there fully is evidence enough of this.

The Boston Globe had a fairly simple summary of what reaction most religious institutions would likely have. Some would have difficulty, some would take it in stride, and some would simply ignore it and carry on as they always have until forced to change by their circumstances or flagging membership.

You're always going to have fringe groups who will believe in all sorts of crazy though, such as the Flat Earth Society or Hollow Earther's. I could mention religious institutions, but I think it may be time to retire from the topic at large since it seems to have run its course.

Back on topic, Arioch, roughly how long have humans been jump capable? When was the jump drive discovered by Terrans and roughly when did it start to become commercially viable?

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Sun Aug 02, 2015 5:21 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Razor One wrote:
Back on topic, Arioch, roughly how long have humans been jump capable? When was the jump drive discovered by Terrans and roughly when did it start to become commercially viable?


I think we can assume that the jump engines was indeed independently invented by terrans since they already have several off world colonies when the Orgus showed up two years ago. It is of course possible that they may have found and reverse engineered an old relic somewhere I doubt it, if they did it was most likely kept a secret for all but a few people. As far as I understand, the orgus was their first encounter with anything related to alien civilizations.

I am curious if the invention of the jump engines was preceded as a mathematical theoretical invention for a long time before people actually started to work on in. If not, scientists may have stumbled upon something that was quickly utilized in the first jump engines. A real life example, jet engines was suggested and then experimented with for some time before they became viable enough for regular use.

.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Razor One wrote:
Back on topic, Arioch, roughly how long have humans been jump capable? When was the jump drive discovered by Terrans and roughly when did it start to become commercially viable?

The first successful manned hyperspace jump was accomplished to Barnard's Star in 2086. The navigational problem of jumping into a multiple-star system was solved and demonstrated with a jump to Alpha Centauri in 2088.

The chief danger of jump travel is the chance of a mis-jump, and this risk is reduced not through technology, but through repeated verification of the safe jump parameters between each star system. Commercial viability is then just a question of testing these parameters to an acceptable tolerance, and that would have taken less than a decade for the near-Earth jump links. The first permanent extra-solar outpost was established in Alpha Centauri in 2092, and the TCA was formed in 2107.

Sweforce wrote:
I am curious if the invention of the jump engines was preceded as a mathematical theoretical invention for a long time before people actually started to work on in. If not, scientists may have stumbled upon something that was quickly utilized in the first jump engines. A real life example, jet engines was suggested and then experimented with for some time before they became viable enough for regular use.

Developing a proper theory of gravity (the missing link of the Grand Unified Theory) unlocked both gravity manipulation and a rudimentary understanding of hyperspace (as, according to some versions of String Theory, they are linked). Small-scale experiments showed that the principle of a hyperspace jump could work, and this was probably the easy part; the hard part was developing an inertial damping field that would prevent the jumping vessel from being torn apart by the gravitational tides created by the transition to hyperspace.

And yes, these developments were achieved by humanity independently, without any alien intervention or artifacts.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Quote:
A Deductive Argument
• no Christian faction has ever come anywhere close to being good roll[sic] models.
• Martin Luther King Jr. and his congregation were a Christian faction
• Martin Luther King Jr. and his congregation has not come anywhere close to being good role models.

I deny the conclusion, and therefore I find the first premise to be false, where the second premise is verified by historical documents.


Quote:
Martin Luther King Jr. and his congregation were a Christian faction


No they weren't. Their faction comprised of strong atheist, secular, feminist, LBGT and communist elements all of whom despised religion for obvious reasons. Which Dr. King took a lot of flack for, mostly from the religious elements of his "flock".

I have no doubt that 50-100 years from now, the religious factions of the US will also be taking credit for making LGBT marriage possible. You may whitewash history all you want Ice, you can never hide the truth deep enough that the discerning wont find it.


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