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Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
In the background of the bottom panel of page 2 I saw someone in what looked like armor was this a colonial marine?

Nope.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Has humanity yet have a spaceship vs spaceship war?


Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:30 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Arioch,

In page 6, center panel, Captain Hamilton muses that the unknown vessel is too far out to be a picket vessel. I am wondering, Earth having no previous alien contact (besides the Orgus), and no battle experience (except their own drills and simulations), how would he know that to be true? Is he just guessing based on Earth-centric simulations?

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Mon Sep 30, 2013 12:51 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
Has humanity yet have a spaceship vs spaceship war?

No, but there have been "police" style engagements in which weapons were fired.

cacambo43 wrote:
In page 6, center panel, Captain Hamilton muses that the unknown vessel is too far out to be a picket vessel. I am wondering, Earth having no previous alien contact (besides the Orgus), and no battle experience (except their own drills and simulations), how would he know that to be true? Is he just guessing based on Earth-centric simulations?

Hamilton was relying on his own judgment. Bellarmine was at that time a very great distance from the engagement.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
No, but there have been "police" style engagements in which weapons were fired.
Like Korea was a "Police action?" :P


Mon Sep 30, 2013 4:21 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?


Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:15 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?


Uhhhh... Loroi far-sensing abilities can't detect us? Not sure if the Umiak have a similar capability.


Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:57 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
Murica wrote:
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?


Uhhhh... Loroi far-sensing abilities can't detect us? Not sure if the Umiak have a similar capability.

Oh yeah should have remembered that


Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:11 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
Jakelope13 wrote:
Murica wrote:
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?


Uhhhh... Loroi far-sensing abilities can't detect us? Not sure if the Umiak have a similar capability.

Oh yeah should have remembered that

Then again that might spawn a 'kill it with fire' response than a lets be friends response


Mon Sep 30, 2013 6:17 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?


We have a strategically valuable position, we have maps that can give the Loroi backdoor access to the Umiak, the reverse isn't quite as true.. We also have a significant, if outdated, industrial base.


Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:37 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
fredgiblet wrote:
Murica wrote:
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?

We have a strategically valuable position, we have maps that can give the Loroi backdoor access to the Umiak, the reverse isn't quite as true.. We also have a significant, if outdated, industrial base.


After rereading some documentation, TCA ships are armed with weapons that are capable of penetrating defensive screens with zero cost towards weapon effectiveness.

Thank goodness the Colonial Fleet hasn't mothballed the mass driver cannons


Mon Sep 30, 2013 9:54 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
fredgiblet wrote:
Murica wrote:
So in other words humanity is inexperienced outgunned and outnumber do we have anything going for us?

We have a strategically valuable position, we have maps that can give the Loroi backdoor access to the Umiak, the reverse isn't quite as true.. We also have a significant, if outdated, industrial base.


After rereading some documentation, TCA ships are armed with weapons that are capable of penetrating defensive screens with zero cost towards weapon effectiveness.

Thank goodness the Colonial Fleet hasn't mothballed the mass driver cannons
Mass drivers have approximately zero cost to damage when they encounter a shield, but also have approximately zero contribution towards combat-mode damage-per-second for the ship that carries them. They're very potent demolition devices, but about as useful for Outsider combat as a wrecking ball is for tank combat.


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:07 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Absalom wrote:
Jakelope13 wrote:
(...)
Thank goodness the Colonial Fleet hasn't mothballed the mass driver cannons
Mass drivers have approximately zero cost to damage when they encounter a shield, but also have approximately zero contribution towards combat-mode damage-per-second for the ship that carries them. They're very potent demolition devices, but about as useful for Outsider combat as a wrecking ball is for tank combat.


Very true, but seeing as how the war has become sort-of stagnant (Umiak send out a fleet, Loroi raiders perform hit-and-run maneuvers to whittle down the invading force, then Loroi defense fleets finish off the Umiak forces) I'd imagine that the Terran weapons doctrine would come as a 'breath of fresh air' and, hopefully, turn the tide of the war in the Loroi's favor.

Heck, if the Terran mass driver rounds are coated in enough stealth materials, the Terran ships could effectively act as sniping vessels, firing rounds that hit the Umiak warships for devastating effect without the Umiak picking up on their weapons.

On that note, how easy is it for someone to detect a Terran mass driver round? I mean, with Terran-based sensor suites, can they spot someone firing off a mass driver round, or would it be undetectable until it sets off the proximity sensors? And would Loroi-based systems be able to pick up the round faster?


Mon Sep 30, 2013 10:52 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Jakelope13 wrote:
(...)
Thank goodness the Colonial Fleet hasn't mothballed the mass driver cannons
Mass drivers have approximately zero cost to damage when they encounter a shield, but also have approximately zero contribution towards combat-mode damage-per-second for the ship that carries them. They're very potent demolition devices, but about as useful for Outsider combat as a wrecking ball is for tank combat.


Very true, but seeing as how the war has become sort-of stagnant (Umiak send out a fleet, Loroi raiders perform hit-and-run maneuvers to whittle down the invading force, then Loroi defense fleets finish off the Umiak forces) I'd imagine that the Terran weapons doctrine would come as a 'breath of fresh air' and, hopefully, turn the tide of the war in the Loroi's favor.

Heck, if the Terran mass driver rounds are coated in enough stealth materials, the Terran ships could effectively act as sniping vessels, firing rounds that hit the Umiak warships for devastating effect without the Umiak picking up on their weapons.

On that note, how easy is it for someone to detect a Terran mass driver round? I mean, with Terran-based sensor suites, can they spot someone firing off a mass driver round, or would it be undetectable until it sets off the proximity sensors? And would Loroi-based systems be able to pick up the round faster?


The main problem of mass driver technology is velocity of the projectile fired. While we can make simulations, trajectory predictions how to fire round at moving target it is still only a ferritic sabot "flying" freely in space. Perhaps we could "fire" Hi-yield torpedoes(with additional trust and payload) in mass drivers but I don't know how could we hold it in one piece(high possible it would be shattered by inner forces on launch)

If it would be pure ferritic sabot flying with high speed I doubt you could detect it and if you pick it up finally it will be too late to make emergency maneuvers.

I'm more interested in energy emissions. Powering a plasma weapon surly creates larger energy signature than mass drivers.

I like mass effect concept of ship's length mass driver. I wonder how fast we could fire f.e 5kg slug with such barrel.


Tue Oct 01, 2013 12:32 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
And so battlecruisers enter the equation. :)

From the look of the silhouette of ECS-201 Victory (British clammoring here, or merely an appeal to patriotism?), the engines have either be enlarged, or a couple more added.
At least, since the 3 TCA heavy destroyers still under construction don't seem to have such an engine upgrade, I gather its an increase in hardware, not capability increase by use of more efficient fuel or engine components?

With more heavy cruisers getting the 'Mjolnir conversions', is there another capability that will be decreased in the class to replace shuttle capacity?

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Last edited by GeoModder on Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:04 am, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Oct 01, 2013 3:45 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Well another important question is what humanity industrial capacity ? In other words if we put our backs in it how many ships can we pop out a year?


Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:45 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
Well another important question is what humanity industrial capacity ? In other words if we put our backs in it how many ships can we pop out a year?


That would depend on the size and complicity of the ships being build, wouldn't it? ;)

That said, since the formation of the TCA in 2107, appearantly a full 198 ships from at least ten different types/classes have finished construction (according to the ECS numbering, and info gleaned from the Terran Ship Classes page).

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
GeoModder wrote:
Murica wrote:
Well another important question is what humanity industrial capacity ? In other words if we put our backs in it how many ships can we pop out a year?


That would depend on the size and complicity of the ships being build, wouldn't it? ;)

That said, since the formation of the TCA in 2107, appearantly a full 198 ships from at least ten different types/classes have been constructed (according to the ECS numbering, and info gleaned from the Terran Ship Classes page).

Well what what I meant was of our current ships also with that it might also count failed experimental ships I really don't know navy doctrine is but I do know that's what the US Air Force does


Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:09 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
Well what what I meant was of our current ships also with that it might also count failed experimental ships I really don't know navy doctrine is but I do know that's what the US Air Force does


Are you talking about Outsider, or the real world?
This post really doesn't make sense to me.

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Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
GeoModder wrote:
Murica wrote:
Well what what I meant was of our current ships also with that it might also count failed experimental ships I really don't know navy doctrine is but I do know that's what the US Air Force does


Are you talking about Outsider, or the real world?
This post really doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry real world


Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:15 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
Very true, but seeing as how the war has become sort-of stagnant (Umiak send out a fleet, Loroi raiders perform hit-and-run maneuvers to whittle down the invading force, then Loroi defense fleets finish off the Umiak forces) I'd imagine that the Terran weapons doctrine would come as a 'breath of fresh air' and, hopefully, turn the tide of the war in the Loroi's favor.

Heck, if the Terran mass driver rounds are coated in enough stealth materials, the Terran ships could effectively act as sniping vessels, firing rounds that hit the Umiak warships for devastating effect without the Umiak picking up on their weapons.

On that note, how easy is it for someone to detect a Terran mass driver round? I mean, with Terran-based sensor suites, can they spot someone firing off a mass driver round, or would it be undetectable until it sets off the proximity sensors? And would Loroi-based systems be able to pick up the round faster?


Mass drivers are effectively value-less in this war. Firing one can't really be hidden, even if you can make the slug undetectable, which would be very difficult, making the cannon undetectable isn't plausible. More to the point it's highly unlikely that any ship will stay on it's course for the hour or so that a slug will take to hit it's target at combat ranges, even when not engaged in combat it's likely there's course tweaks that occur regularly that would be sufficient to cause a miss, and if there's a hostile ship around it's a near certainty.

Murica wrote:
Well another important question is what humanity industrial capacity ? In other words if we put our backs in it how many ships can we pop out a year?


I imagine quite a few once our construction capacity spools up, but none of them will be competitive until we get a tech infusion from someone and spend some time integrating new systems.


Tue Oct 01, 2013 9:27 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
Well another important question is what humanity industrial capacity ? In other words if we put our backs in it how many ships can we pop out a year?


Well, in WWII all combatants combined during the war produced the following dedicated warships:

Carriers : 36 (Does not include converted merchant ships)
Battleships : 20
Cruisers : 97
Destroyers :1000
Escorts : 1102
Submarines : 1758


3 caveats:
1) Considerable effort was expended building things other than ships (ground and air forces)
2) This is over the course of 6 years of war
3) WWII ships were, class for class, considerably smaller than Outsider ships. A Fletcher class destroyer, for example, was 114m long and displaced ~2000 tons, making it quite a lot smaller than the England class Destroyer of the TCA, which is 200m long, with mass unlisted.

If we make the giant assumptions that TCA warships are about as difficult to build for 23rd century Earth as WWII warships were for 20th century Earth, and that we can physically scale between different length ships (as in a 200m ship takes 8 times the industrial capacity as a 100m ship (2^3 vs 1^3, volume is volume is industrial requirement) AND that similar length means similar volume between WWII and 23rd Century (terran ships do appear to be generally cigar shaped still, unlike Loroi or Umiak ones, which have a lot more beam per length) then WWII production converted to Outsider production looks like the following :

Carriers : 36 (400^3/250^3 = 4.096 Essex per Terran CV) = 9 Terran CV/6 Years = 1 1/2 CV per year.
Battleships : 20 (500^3/270^3 = 6.35 Iowas per Terran BB) = 3 Terran BB/6 years = 1/2 BB per year.
Cruisers : 97 (320^3/205^3 = 3.80 Brooklyns per America) = 31 Americas/6 Years = 5 Cruisers per year.
Destroyers :1000 (200^3/114^3=5.40 Fletchers per England) = 185 Englands/6 Years = 31 Destroyers per year.
Escorts : 1102 (180^3/80^3=11.39 WWII Escorts per Hayes) = 97 Frigates = 16 Frigates per year.
Submarines : 1758 (180^3/67^3=19.39 Type VII Uboats per Hayes) = 91 Frigates = 15 Frigates per year.

If we make the further giant assumption that ships can be converted between types and volume is just volume (as in a 500m battleship takes exactly the same capacity as 15 5/8 200m destroyers) then Terran capacity, using a 'point' system where each point represents the IC needed to make a 100 meter long ship :

0.5 BB = 63 points
1.5 CV = 96 points
5 CA = 164 points
31 DD = 248 points
31 FF = 181 points
Total : 752 points/ year

And costs (at length in 100s of meters, cubed) per ship are:

Theoretical Terran BB = 125 points
Theoretical Terran CV = 64 points
Victory Class BC = 53 points
America Class CA = 33 points
Centaur Class CL = 22 points
Arcadia Class DDH = 14 points
England Class DD = 8 points
Bennet/Yorktown SC = 7 points
Hayes Class Frigate = 6 points


And again, Loroi or Umiak designs of the same nominal class would be considerably more expensive, since they are ~20% longer, and much, much wider.


Tue Oct 01, 2013 10:13 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
GeoModder wrote:
From the look of the silhouette of ECS-201 Victory (British clamoring here, or merely an appeal to patriotism?), the engines have either be enlarged, or a couple more added. At least, since the 3 TCA heavy destroyers still under construction don't seem to have such an engine upgrade, I gather its an increase in hardware, not capability increase by use of more efficient fuel or engine components?

The 201-variant has two additional engine nacelles for a third more engine power:

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GeoModder wrote:
With more heavy cruisers getting the 'Mjolnir conversions', is there another capability that will be decreased in the class to replace shuttle capacity?

Nope, they just have to rely on their escorts for extra shuttles.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
JQBogus wrote:
Murica wrote:
Well another important question is what humanity industrial capacity ? In other words if we put our backs in it how many ships can we pop out a year?


Well, in WWII all combatants combined during the war produced the following dedicated warships:

Carriers : 36 (Does not include converted merchant ships)
Battleships : 20
Cruisers : 97
Destroyers :1000
Escorts : 1102
Submarines : 1758


3 caveats:
1) Considerable effort was expended building things other than ships (ground and air forces)
2) This is over the course of 6 years of war
3) WWII ships were, class for class, considerably smaller than Outsider ships. A Fletcher class destroyer, for example, was 114m long and displaced ~2000 tons, making it quite a lot smaller than the England class Destroyer of the TCA, which is 200m long, with mass unlisted.

If we make the giant assumptions that TCA warships are about as difficult to build for 23rd century Earth as WWII warships were for 20th century Earth, and that we can physically scale between different length ships (as in a 200m ship takes 8 times the industrial capacity as a 100m ship (2^3 vs 1^3, volume is volume is industrial requirement) AND that similar length means similar volume between WWII and 23rd Century (terran ships do appear to be generally cigar shaped still, unlike Loroi or Umiak ones, which have a lot more beam per length) then WWII production converted to Outsider production looks like the following :

Carriers : 36 (400^3/250^3 = 4.096 Essex per Terran CV) = 9 Terran CV/6 Years = 1 1/2 CV per year.
Battleships : 20 (500^3/270^3 = 6.35 Iowas per Terran BB) = 3 Terran BB/6 years = 1/2 BB per year.
Cruisers : 97 (320^3/205^3 = 3.80 Brooklyns per America) = 31 Americas/6 Years = 5 Cruisers per year.
Destroyers :1000 (200^3/114^3=5.40 Fletchers per England) = 185 Englands/6 Years = 31 Destroyers per year.
Escorts : 1102 (180^3/80^3=11.39 WWII Escorts per Hayes) = 97 Frigates = 16 Frigates per year.
Submarines : 1758 (180^3/67^3=19.39 Type VII Uboats per Hayes) = 91 Frigates = 15 Frigates per year.

If we make the further giant assumption that ships can be converted between types and volume is just volume (as in a 500m battleship takes exactly the same capacity as 15 5/8 200m destroyers) then Terran capacity, using a 'point' system where each point represents the IC needed to make a 100 meter long ship :

0.5 BB = 63 points
1.5 CV = 96 points
5 CA = 164 points
31 DD = 248 points
31 FF = 181 points
Total : 752 points/ year

And costs (at length in 100s of meters, cubed) per ship are:

Theoretical Terran BB = 125 points
Theoretical Terran CV = 64 points
Victory Class BC = 53 points
America Class CA = 33 points
Centaur Class CL = 22 points
Arcadia Class DDH = 14 points
England Class DD = 8 points
Bennet/Yorktown SC = 7 points
Hayes Class Frigate = 6 points


And again, Loroi or Umiak designs of the same nominal class would be considerably more expensive, since they are ~20% longer, and much, much wider.

Cool you must have put a lot of effort into that


Tue Oct 01, 2013 4:39 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Odd question, but what does 'ECS' stand for? Earth Colonial Ship? Wouldn't the TCA go with something that isn't so Earth-centric?

Do the individual navies of each nation have their own naming conventions, or do they abide by the system set down by the TCA?

Does each planet have their own orbital shipyard, or do the individual nations have their own stations? And, if so, does that mean that Aldea and Mars (or Yinghao, if the case may be) are the only ones with the shipyard capacity to build ships above the size of a Heavy Destroyer, or did they surrender that capacity when they gave the TCA their ships as well?


Tue Oct 01, 2013 5:44 pm
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