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Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
I don`t see it working out side of modern metropolitan areas. Regardless, wouldn`t it be better to only develop along the lines of improved public transport. A soccer mom, or any stereotyped drivers along those lines, wouldn`t need a flying car. A bus system that bypasses ground-side traffic could be good though.

I would never want such dangerous vehicles in the hands of everyday persons, as for instance it has be estimated that up to a fifth of drivers on SA roads are either unlicensed or have gotten their licences illegally.

It`s already be pointed out that you would need the same certifications and training as normal pilots today. Not to mention the maintenance, in my opinion better public transport along with few cars on the road would be better over all.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
I always thought that, when someone developed a method of artificial gravity/gravitational manipulation, flying cars would be around not so much for the fact that they can fly, but more to relieve traffic congestion. No more effing traffic jams!

Actually, speaking of automation, were the computers aboard the Bellarmine built using printed circuits, or have we developed some form of 'molecular circuitry'?

*EDIT*

This is a bit more involved, but with the TCA readying for war, would exploration and surveys of new planets to colonize be handed over to the private sector, or does the Scout Corp do that as part of their mandate? Or, for that matter, would the TCA stop surveying new planets altogether, in fear that spreading out the human population at this dark hour would only help spread their defenses thinner, making humanity all the more vulnerable?


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
Actually, speaking of automation, were the computers aboard the Bellarmine built using printed circuits, or have we developed some form of 'molecular circuitry'?

I'm not going to worry too much about the details of how computers are made 150 years from now, but I will say that the photolithography methods used to make integrated circuits can create features as small as 22 nanometers today, and can potentially create features as small as 2 nm. Since the diameter of a silicon atom is 0.234 nm, you're already talking about structures 10 atoms wide. It's hard to imagine practical circuitry getting very much smaller than that.

Jakelope13 wrote:
This is a bit more involved, but with the TCA readying for war, would exploration and surveys of new planets to colonize be handed over to the private sector, or does the Scout Corp do that as part of their mandate? Or, for that matter, would the TCA stop surveying new planets altogether, in fear that spreading out the human population at this dark hour would only help spread their defenses thinner, making humanity all the more vulnerable?

The Scout Corps has its hands full with supporting the Alien Contact Mission, and all other resources are being devoted to preparation for war. I don't think surveys for new colonization are a priority.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
sunphoenix wrote:
I am sure there will be some lee-way for 'act of god/circumstance'...as if that were the case... there would be NO auto-pilot systems on aircraft...and there are.

Yes, but aircraft must be flown by well-trained, certified pilots and there are a host of regulations that govern how and when aircraft can fly, how many hours of regular re-training a pilot must undertake, requirements of how much sleep a pilot must get, etc. The pilot is responsible for flying the aircraft; using autopilot doesn't abrogate that responsibility. If there is a problem with the autopilot, it's the pilot's responsibility to detect this and take appropriate action. Flying cars will have to follow the same sorts of tightly-controlled rules.

On the other hand, if you have a consumer vehicle (flying or otherwise) with an autopilot, many drivers will stop paying attention and depend on the car to drive itself. I think will be very hard for the makers to avoid liability for anything that goes wrong. These sorts of systems will be coming soon; it will be interesting to see how they are handled in terms of regulation and liability.
Another thought: there are relatively few purchasers of aircraft, particularly large ones, and the large ones especially are mostly owned and operated in fleet service, where the owner is as likely to aim at the pilot as at the manufacturer. Car owners (at least in the US) are seemingly individuals: there's far more of them, covering a much wider spectrum, and both those who think they see a cheap buck and those that react emotionally to everything would be liable to sue at the drop of a hat.


Jakelope13 wrote:
I always thought that, when someone developed a method of artificial gravity/gravitational manipulation, flying cars would be around not so much for the fact that they can fly, but more to relieve traffic congestion. No more effing traffic jams!
You underestimate the perversity of the average driver. Anyone with sense could tell you that it's smarter to stay far behind other drivers while maintaining the same speed, yet many will instead get close to the car in front of them regardless of both speed and the space they can spread out over. It's like they have some intrinsic fear of being alone, so if one goes, several others are liable to do the same.

Jakelope13 wrote:
This is a bit more involved, but with the TCA readying for war, would exploration and surveys of new planets to colonize be handed over to the private sector, or does the Scout Corp do that as part of their mandate? Or, for that matter, would the TCA stop surveying new planets altogether, in fear that spreading out the human population at this dark hour would only help spread their defenses thinner, making humanity all the more vulnerable?
I, for one, would suspect that while any initial-stage colonization might be delayed, the vast majority of new colonies are probably done on already, but sparsely, colonized worlds, though this would require some sort of "homesteading" equivalent to decide what does and does not get declared a colony, and what it's territory is. Regardless, it would make it so much easier to get organizations to chip into the colonization effort that I can't help thinking it works in some way like that. Allowing a small number of colonies to monopolize a planet would be a sure-fire way to keep that colony from expanding in a meaningful way.


Arioch wrote:
Jakelope13 wrote:
Actually, speaking of automation, were the computers aboard the Bellarmine built using printed circuits, or have we developed some form of 'molecular circuitry'?

I'm not going to worry too much about the details of how computers are made 150 years from now, but I will say that the photolithography methods used to make integrated circuits can create features as small as 22 nanometers today, and can potentially create features as small as 2 nm. Since the diameter of a silicon atom is 0.234 nm, you're already talking about structures 10 atoms wide. It's hard to imagine practical circuitry getting very much smaller than that.
Even if smaller circuits do prove useful, presumably the circuits will be built with equipment that was built on the wafer using photolithography.

Arioch wrote:
Jakelope13 wrote:
This is a bit more involved, but with the TCA readying for war, would exploration and surveys of new planets to colonize be handed over to the private sector, or does the Scout Corp do that as part of their mandate? Or, for that matter, would the TCA stop surveying new planets altogether, in fear that spreading out the human population at this dark hour would only help spread their defenses thinner, making humanity all the more vulnerable?

The Scout Corps has its hands full with supporting the Alien Contact Mission, and all other resources are being devoted to preparation for war. I don't think surveys for new colonization are a priority.
A shame, but understandable. However, does the TCA have any large, long-range space telescope arrays in frontier regions? I would assume that every once in a while such things might be relocated to a new system to help track down additional "systems of interest", particularly if the Orgus did know of some race in the vague direction of Human space (after all, there's no reason to just contact two combatants if there's someone else convenient, right?).


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
3 Questions.

1. With Current bombs such as the MOAB (if the typical bomb that is dropped is the size of a refrigerator, this is the size of a large truck) which have all the destructive power of a nuclear warhead one could want without any of the radiation, is it likely that nuclear armaments would be none existent save for a few relics here and there?

Considering we have MOABS today, I can think of something much deadlier will have come by a century and a half by now.

2. You didn't think power armor would be likely. Are you thinking more on the lines of large mecha like in Gundam and Robo Tech, or a smaller scale such as with Star Ship Troopers or Warhammer 40,000 Terminator armor?

3. How would soldiers be donned in armor? Something similar to the Storm trooper armor which theoretically is good against projectiles and ricochet blaster shots, or something along the lines of current body armor like Dragon Skin?


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
saint of m wrote:
3 Questions.

1. With Current bombs such as the MOAB (if the typical bomb that is dropped is the size of a refrigerator, this is the size of a large truck) which have all the destructive power of a nuclear warhead one could want without any of the radiation, is it likely that nuclear armaments would be none existent save for a few relics here and there?

Considering we have MOABS today, I can think of something much deadlier will have come by a century and a half by now.


Saint, given the time involved ( 150+ years), most of the nukes we have now will have been converted to reactor fuel rods or used of other purposes (IE asteroid mining), besides why have nukes when compared to Anti-matter bases ( or similar matter-to-matter annihilator reactions) nukes are a smaller class of explosives. in terms of relic their are probable non-radiological warheads ( ie no UR-235) in museums as replicas, or originals. MOAB are powerfully but their is still chemical base weapons, for a similar future developed explosives are that limit. You could do Kinetic bombardment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment ) as it does have potential as a cluster weapons or precision strike on non-moving targets. But with plasma-type ( energy) weapons in Outsider, MOAB, nuke or KE weapons are outclass ( but I different to the master in these case)



saint of m wrote:
2. You didn't think power armor would be likely. Are you thinking more on the lines of large mecha like in Gundam and Robo Tech, or a smaller scale such as with Star Ship Troopers or Warhammer 40,000 Terminator armor?


ah this old topic, pls see this quote from the Outsider Extra's Ground war section

Quote:
A few ground-based Loroi army units use armor that's heavy enough to require hydraulic/power assist in the legs to ease movement, but there are no examples of "powered armor" in the sense of Starship Troopers style battlesuits. The Loroi do use combat robots, primarily as self-propelled squad heavy weapons, but I don't see any advantage to these robots being humanoid.


besides, Gundam type robots are buildable but compact power sources are a problem ( yes this is universe where ground vehicle hover with needed/require heavy power output drivers), but their cost is not beneficial. ( For example in Gundam 00, season 1, even the three biggest nation blocks could only field about 1000+ MS suits for a limited time and the Loroi/Umaik conflict has lasted decades). To use a modern terms, in WW2 50,000+ Sherman tanks were built in near total ( IE conventional ground vehicles in outsiders), in comparison to less thank a 1000 king tiger tanks ( IE large mecha). its about the scale of production. I know that their have been many discussion in this form about which vehicle would be better (choff T-34). as for veritech ( Robo tech), similar discussion, why have a transformation tech in yor fighter where a none transformable fighter could serve better ( and cheaper). ( note Halloween image a loroi vertitech fighters

saint of m wrote:
3. How would soldiers be donned in armor? Something similar to the Storm trooper armor which theoretically is good against projectiles and ricochet blaster shots, or something along the lines of current body armor like Dragon Skin?


Arioch has commented that their are different armour types for the Loroi depending on use, the grey armour that Alex arm escort wares, while ground force have more large armours that are proofed against rail guns. The standard uniform are a electrical reactive armour that has a push tab (right should for left hand Loroi IIRC) that when pressed opens up a seam a-la full body swimsuit to get into out off. A similar push tab could be used for the grey armour or heavily ground armour ( which would be more metallic than the leather-type of material). As for the power armour need for weapon system their would be proofed against the treat it would be facing ( Ie a heavy support weapon might be armoured to resist heavy rail gun fire or heavy mortar fire, and I think with would be more of a vehicle type ( step in & suit close around you, then in comparison to simple piece added on to under suit ( IE Spartan ops opening cinematic skip to 3:55 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d66NOXhwfoI)

but here the official word

Quote:
The three security officers in pages (98-101) are outfitted in typical Marine gear: medium armor and a blaster assault rifle (a particle beam weapon). Shipboard marines will prefer beam weapons to slugthrowers because marines operate in a delicate environment and need to be precise in their application of firepower, and beam weapons can be more easily "dialed" up or down as the situations demands. Marines will also typically carry anti-personnel grenades, breaching charges, and other tools for operating in and around spacecraft.

Surface army units will equipped in a similar manner, though with a greater variety of weapons. The standard army assault rifle will probably be a slugthrower with armor-piercing and incendiary ammunition. Some units will use heavier armor. Since Loroi are not known for their great physical strength, I think most squad heavy weapons will be self-propelled.


and

Quote:
I imagine true "heavy" armor as being bulkier and giving 100% coverage (without the gaps at the joints that lighter armor has). The sort of thing you might need for Explosive Ordnance Disposal or toxic environments, or a role where you need to be moving around where shells are going off around you (perhaps artillery spotting, or some combat engineering jobs).


I think I've covered everything ( but you never know ) anything I missed

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
saint of m wrote:
1. With Current bombs such as the MOAB (if the typical bomb that is dropped is the size of a refrigerator, this is the size of a large truck) which have all the destructive power of a nuclear warhead one could want without any of the radiation, is it likely that nuclear armaments would be none existent save for a few relics here and there?

Nuclear weapons (or a high-tech non-nuclear equivalent) are not really viable tactical weapons systems for deployment on a planet's surface. Such a huge explosion isn't useful unless you're going for full strategic annihilation. The Daisy Cutter and MOAB aren't really tactical weapons; they were used for clearing forests and psychological warfare. Themonuclear warheads will still exist, but they won't be intended as tactical ground weapons.


saint of m wrote:
2. You didn't think power armor would be likely. Are you thinking more on the lines of large mecha like in Gundam and Robo Tech, or a smaller scale such as with Star Ship Troopers or Warhammer 40,000 Terminator armor?

I don't think powered armor of any size is a practical weapon system. You could build a Gundam-sized armored fighting vehicle, but there's no advantage in doing so and lots of disadvantages.

saint of m wrote:
How would soldiers be donned in armor? Something similar to the Storm trooper armor which theoretically is good against projectiles and ricochet blaster shots, or something along the lines of current body armor like Dragon Skin?

All of the above.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
saint of m wrote:
1. With Current bombs such as the MOAB (if the typical bomb that is dropped is the size of a refrigerator, this is the size of a large truck) which have all the destructive power of a nuclear warhead one could want without any of the radiation, is it likely that nuclear armaments would be none existent save for a few relics here and there?


Blast yield: 11 tons of TNT

That's less than the Davy Crockett nuke, while requiring a cargo plane to carry it. MOAB is an experiment, not a practical weapon and definitely not a replacement for a nuke.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
fredgiblet wrote:
saint of m wrote:
1. With Current bombs such as the MOAB (if the typical bomb that is dropped is the size of a refrigerator, this is the size of a large truck) which have all the destructive power of a nuclear warhead one could want without any of the radiation, is it likely that nuclear armaments would be none existent save for a few relics here and there?


Blast yield: 11 tons of TNT

That's less than the Davy Crockett nuke, while requiring a cargo plane to carry it. MOAB is an experiment, not a practical weapon and definitely not a replacement for a nuke.


The LGM-118A Peacekeeper MIRV could carry ten 300-kiloton W87 warheads.

The biggest conventional MOAB style bomb the Aviation Thermobaric Bomb of Increased Power or ATBIP, more commonly referred to as the FOAB or Father Of All Bombs, possibly has a 44 tons TNT equivalent yield.

Thats 0.000044 of a Megaton.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
I've been thinking about length of day for the various worlds described here, and was wondering how it might be handled (or ignored) for the story. To use a vaguely analogous example, I know that the initial planning and exploration of the various Mars rover teams were planned on Mars time. Mars has a day just a bit longer than Earths. The teams could only work on Mars time before having to transition to Earth time due, in part, to physiological stresses.

I can see that while on other worlds of humanity, a pharmacological solution might be available, but what about Alex on the Tempest (and now the shuttle)? What is the length of "day" and how is he coping with the day/night cycle? Or is this just one of those things that gets left out because it would clutter up the story?

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
cacambo43 wrote:
I've been thinking about length of day for the various worlds described here, and was wondering how it might be handled (or ignored) for the story. To use a vaguely analogous example, I know that the initial planning and exploration of the various Mars rover teams were planned on Mars time. Mars has a day just a bit longer than Earths. The teams could only work on Mars time before having to transition to Earth time due, in part, to physiological stresses.

I can see that while on other worlds of humanity, a pharmacological solution might be available, but what about Alex on the Tempest (and now the shuttle)? What is the length of "day" and how is he coping with the day/night cycle? Or is this just one of those things that gets left out because it would clutter up the story?

The Mars rovers are solar powered, and so the controller teams have to work during the Mars day while still living on Earth. It's the conflict between the two that is the problem, as far as I'm aware. If you actually moved to Mars, I don't think adjusting to the 24.6 hour day would be any issue. Any spacecraft is going to have it's own shift schedule, which you'll have to adjust to... but after the "jet lag" period of getting adjusted, I don't think there should be any problems unless the length of "day" is radically different from what you're used to.

Spacecraft, especially military spacecraft, need to be manned and ready at all times. Loroi ships have regular work shifts built around a standard length of day (which is longer than the Earth day, but similar), but they don't operate a "day/night" cycle; that is, they don't dim the lights or alter the temperature, etc. If you're off-duty and need to sleep, you just turn off the lights in your own sleeping space.

Alex has to this point been kept in a darkened cell with no sense of a time cycle at all, so he's completely on his own as regards sleep cycle. This is no doubt disconcerting, but Alex should be able to cope with time zone changes without too much trouble (or he wouldn't be much use as a professional spacer).

Worldbuilding details like the lengths of days or years for the various planets, or personal histories of the characters, often won't appear directly in a story; rather, as a collective they help to inform the cultures of the societies and characters to give an idea of how they appear and behave. Since most of this story is about people aboard spacecraft, lengths of days and years are unlikely to directly impact the story.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
I don't think powered armor of any size is a practical weapon system. You could build a Gundam-sized armored fighting vehicle, but there's no advantage in doing so and lots of disadvantages.


Ah, by 'power armor,' I meant something more like the power armor from the Fallout series of games or the Mjolnir armor from the Halo franchise, effectively heavier armor with a built-in exoskeletal system that can handle a large amount of weight, allowing troopers wearing power armor to wield weapons that troopers in unpowered armor cannot wield, like a turret-mounted machine guns, a grenade launcher firing bunker-busting munitions, and other such heavy weapons.

Not to mention being able to drop troops from orbit directly onto an enemy position without putting transports in unnecessary danger :)


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
cacambo43 wrote:
I've been thinking about length of day for the various worlds described here, and was wondering how it might be handled (or ignored) for the story. To use a vaguely analogous example, I know that the initial planning and exploration of the various Mars rover teams were planned on Mars time. Mars has a day just a bit longer than Earths. The teams could only work on Mars time before having to transition to Earth time due, in part, to physiological stresses.

I can see that while on other worlds of humanity, a pharmacological solution might be available, but what about Alex on the Tempest (and now the shuttle)? What is the length of "day" and how is he coping with the day/night cycle? Or is this just one of those things that gets left out because it would clutter up the story?

The Mars rovers are solar powered, and so the controller teams have to work during the Mars day while still living on Earth. It's the conflict between the two that is the problem, as far as I'm aware. If you actually moved to Mars, I don't think adjusting to the 24.6 hour day would be any issue. Any spacecraft is going to have it's own shift schedule, which you'll have to adjust to... but after the "jet lag" period of getting adjusted, I don't think there should be any problems unless the length of "day" is radically different from what you're used to.

Spacecraft, especially military spacecraft, need to be manned and ready at all times. Loroi ships have regular work shifts built around a standard length of day (which is longer than the Earth day, but similar), but they don't operate a "day/night" cycle; that is, they don't dim the lights or alter the temperature, etc. If you're off-duty and need to sleep, you just turn off the lights in your own sleeping space.

Alex has to this point been kept in a darkened cell with no sense of a time cycle at all, so he's completely on his own as regards sleep cycle. This is no doubt disconcerting, but Alex should be able to cope with time zone changes without too much trouble (or he wouldn't be much use as a professional spacer).

Worldbuilding details like the lengths of days or years for the various planets, or personal histories of the characters, often won't appear directly in a story; rather, as a collective they help to inform the cultures of the societies and characters to give an idea of how they appear and behave. Since most of this story is about people aboard spacecraft, lengths of days and years are unlikely to directly impact the story.


So it would be similar to a modern submarine then as it's rather hard to tell if it's day light several leagues under the sea. There was one Modern Marvel Program (I think it was on food or something like that) and one of the servicemen they interviews said the only time they know if it's day or not is what's in the mess hall condiments, or whats to eat.

Although, this might lead to another question: how would they handle waste of any sort? If I had to guess they can recycle some of it, but that can only go so far I presume.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
Ah, by 'power armor,' I meant something more like the power armor from the Fallout series of games or the Mjolnir armor from the Halo franchise, effectively heavier armor with a built-in exoskeletal system that can handle a large amount of weight, allowing troopers wearing power armor to wield weapons that troopers in unpowered armor cannot wield, like a turret-mounted machine guns, a grenade launcher firing bunker-busting munitions, and other such heavy weapons.

That's what most people mean, but I don't think battlesuits of any size will ever be a viable weapons system... at least until you get into the realm of superscience. If you decide you need a powered robotic framework (for heavy weapons or whatever), fine... but there's no need to complicate such a system by trying to cram a fragile human body into the middle of it. If you're like the Umiak and have no qualms about lopping off most of a person's body parts, you could make some great combat cyborgs, but otherwise I think such things are much more effective as autonomous or remotely-controlled units.

saint of m wrote:
So it would be similar to a modern submarine then as it's rather hard to tell if it's day light several leagues under the sea. There was one Modern Marvel Program (I think it was on food or something like that) and one of the servicemen they interviews said the only time they know if it's day or not is what's in the mess hall condiments, or whats to eat.

Once you leave the surface of a planet, day and night cease to have any meaning. It's always "daytime."

saint of m wrote:
Although, this might lead to another question: how would they handle waste of any sort? If I had to guess they can recycle some of it, but that can only go so far I presume.

Probably the same way it is aboard ships today: depending on the waste type and situation, it is either stored, recycled, or jettisoned.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
NOMAD wrote:
saint of m wrote:
3 Questions.

1. With Current bombs such as the MOAB (if the typical bomb that is dropped is the size of a refrigerator, this is the size of a large truck) which have all the destructive power of a nuclear warhead one could want without any of the radiation, is it likely that nuclear armaments would be none existent save for a few relics here and there?

Considering we have MOABS today, I can think of something much deadlier will have come by a century and a half by now.


Saint, given the time involved ( 150+ years), most of the nukes we have now will have been converted to reactor fuel rods or used of other purposes (IE asteroid mining), besides why have nukes when compared to Anti-matter bases ( or similar matter-to-matter annihilator reactions) nukes are a smaller class of explosives. in terms of relic their are probable non-radiological warheads ( ie no UR-235) in museums as replicas, or originals. MOAB are powerfully but their is still chemical base weapons, for a similar future developed explosives are that limit. You could do Kinetic bombardment ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_bombardment ) as it does have potential as a cluster weapons or precision strike on non-moving targets. But with plasma-type ( energy) weapons in Outsider, MOAB, nuke or KE weapons are outclass ( but I different to the master in these case)
Nukes are more likely than AM for the TCA, due to the fact that the TCA doesn't use AM annihilation as the power source for their drives yet. AM may sound neat, but the conventional stuff that we have currently is both touchy (should it ever touch the sides of it's containment chamber, it'll explode), and it actually isn't as good an explosive as you might think (several particles are produced that have limited interactions with normal matter, thus siphoning off some of the power that would otherwise go into photons). In contrast, the Loroi and Umiak both use non-conventional AM forms that either don't react with normal matter at all, or do so less thoroughly than e.g. anti-hydrogen, thereby lowering the consequences of the AM material coming into contact with it's containment chamber, thereby making it easier to contain. It's reactions presumably also have a more convenient emissions set.

Thus, yeah, AM makes sense for the Umiak & Loroi. Terrans, in comparison, are probably still using nukes for their high-damage torpedoes and missiles. Either MIGHT also have a small suite of chemical-fueled systems for a handful of cases (e.g. the Umiak may have some gunboats that carry dedicated anti-fighter missiles too small for AM containment), but that's not guaranteed.


NOMAD wrote:
saint of m wrote:
2. You didn't think power armor would be likely. Are you thinking more on the lines of large mecha like in Gundam and Robo Tech, or a smaller scale such as with Star Ship Troopers or Warhammer 40,000 Terminator armor?


ah this old topic, pls see this quote from the Outsider Extra's Ground war section

Quote:
A few ground-based Loroi army units use armor that's heavy enough to require hydraulic/power assist in the legs to ease movement, but there are no examples of "powered armor" in the sense of Starship Troopers style battlesuits. The Loroi do use combat robots, primarily as self-propelled squad heavy weapons, but I don't see any advantage to these robots being humanoid.


besides, Gundam type robots are buildable but compact power sources are a problem ( yes this is universe where ground vehicle hover with needed/require heavy power output drivers), but their cost is not beneficial.
Better to credit this to power losses due to applying reciprocating forces to the legs, lower armor thicknesses due to the greater surface area, lower speeds due to the power losses in the legs, and higher vulnerability due to the increased height than to blame it on equipment costs, especially since any Gundam setting is a inherently unreliable source of hard data.

NOMAD wrote:
( For example in Gundam 00, season 1, even the three biggest nation blocks could only field about 1000+ MS suits for a limited time and the Loroi/Umaik conflict has lasted decades). To use a modern terms, in WW2 50,000+ Sherman tanks were built in near total ( IE conventional ground vehicles in outsiders), in comparison to less thank a 1000 king tiger tanks ( IE large mecha).
The Sherman was produced by America, the Tiger series were produced by Germany. To give you an impression of what the production scales were like, it's worth noting that in the beginning of the current recession the US economy contracted by an amount close to the total size of the German economy. If the US had been building King Tigers then there would have been a lot more of them. The Sherman is so famous partly because it was so numerous, but largely because it was one of the newest in the US arsenal (the US also produced some other, medium tanks, which followed a now-abandoned design scheme). The only reason the US didn't field a heavy tank in WW2 is because some general or another interfered with the development of such, the main US tank of the Korean war was a heavy tank intended for WW2.

NOMAD wrote:
its about the scale of production. I know that their have been many discussion in this form about which vehicle would be better (choff T-34). as for veritech ( Robo tech), similar discussion, why have a transformation tech in yor fighter where a none transformable fighter could serve better ( and cheaper). ( note Halloween image a loroi vertitech fighters
It's worth noting that in the original Macross/Robotech series the transformable fighters did somewhat make sense, given that they were worried about fighting giants that used armor that they themselves might not be able to pierce without taking weapons from said enemy. In contrast, I don't know if they ever tried to explain why they continued to use that style of vehicle after they'd taken over the production facilities.


Jakelope13 wrote:
Ah, by 'power armor,' I meant something more like the power armor from the Fallout series of games or the Mjolnir armor from the Halo franchise, effectively heavier armor with a built-in exoskeletal system that can handle a large amount of weight, allowing troopers wearing power armor to wield weapons that troopers in unpowered armor cannot wield, like a turret-mounted machine guns, a grenade launcher firing bunker-busting munitions, and other such heavy weapons.
I think such armor more likely than Arioch does (if Arioch's point was relevant, then infantry ground combat would be almost entirely dominated by such robots due to higher chances of mission-survival, resulting in either little armor use in general, or almost non-existent flesh-and-blood infantry). Regardless, it's important to remember that there are actually somewhat limited uses for such. This sort of thing is actually more useful in maintenance units than in conventional combat units, since most heavy weapons will have enough kick to make them unusable in such a situation anyways (remember: WH40k Space Marines are not only encased in powered armor: they're also twice the height of the average soldier; they have a lot more mass unarmored than a current soldier is likely to have with armor). As far as weapons that would justify powered armor go, you'll be looking at missiles and recoilless rifles rather than heavy machine guns. You might convert a two or three man weapon to a one or two man (depending on whether a spotter is needed), and you could field larger weapons as squad equipment, but for combat it's actually rather limited.

Still, some powered-assist will certainly enter real-world militaries in the next twenty years as standard infantry equipment, but not for the reason you mentioned. The real reason is that heat and the weight of supplies are the biggest reducers of infantry endurance, so by reducing weight and/or reducing temperature you can get much more effectiveness out of your troops. The Canadians apparently actually fielded a heat-control system around the time of the invasion of Iraq, so while I'm not sure if any are actually field-ready right now, I can say that it's only a matter of time.

Jakelope13 wrote:
Not to mention being able to drop troops from orbit directly onto an enemy position without putting transports in unnecessary danger :)
If you're really worried about this, then you're better off with some derivative of WH40k's drop pods idea. Build a thick armor-walled "bunker" release it as close as you can justify to the surface of the planet, and have the soldiers self-deploy (presumably in mid-air) on a timer. Increases their armor protection on the way down, reduces the required deceleration force, keeps your vulnerable transports at a safer distance.

Though honestly, you might be better off just having a heavily-armored drop ship design, since you could justify sticking weaponry on such a thing.


saint of m wrote:
Although, this might lead to another question: how would they handle waste of any sort? If I had to guess they can recycle some of it, but that can only go so far I presume.
Depends on what the waste is. Bodily wastes will either be dumped overboard, or used as nutrients for a biologically based environmental control system (which, optionally, could provide a limited amount of fresh food). Packaging waste will presumably be either dumped overboard, or recycled for assorted minor purposes onboard (e.g. replacing a damaged switch cover with one made from a day or two worth of recycled metal foil).


Arioch wrote:
Jakelope13 wrote:
Ah, by 'power armor,' I meant something more like the power armor from the Fallout series of games or the Mjolnir armor from the Halo franchise, effectively heavier armor with a built-in exoskeletal system that can handle a large amount of weight, allowing troopers wearing power armor to wield weapons that troopers in unpowered armor cannot wield, like a turret-mounted machine guns, a grenade launcher firing bunker-busting munitions, and other such heavy weapons.

That's what most people mean, but I don't think battlesuits of any size will ever be a viable weapons system... at least until you get into the realm of ultra-tech. If you decide you need a powered robotic framework (for heavy weapons or whatever), fine... but there's no need to complicate such a system by trying to cram a fragile human body into the middle of it. If you're like the Umiak and have no qualms about lopping off most of a person's body parts you could make some great combat cyborgs, but otherwise such things are much more effective as autonomous or remotely-controlled units.
A model-T would be a pathetic APC, but use it to haul around a recoilless rifle and you can suddenly kill small tanks with it. Force multipliers don't always have to increase the actual application of force; increasing range, endurance, or speed (all three of which inter-play for infantry) can do the job quite well. The main trick is keeping your goals realistic: I think that to get WH40k performance without implausible power supplies would require something like a HeavyGear mecha, and that in turn would presumably only work right in in combat if you're in jungle or heavy forest. A Gundam would probably only work as a tourist attraction (which is a completely different kind of war), or on a "Redwood" covered planet like Endor.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Absalom wrote:
Better to credit this to power losses due to applying reciprocating forces to the legs, lower armor thicknesses due to the greater surface area, lower speeds due to the power losses in the legs, and higher vulnerability due to the increased height than to blame it on equipment costs, especially since any Gundam setting is a inherently unreliable source of hard data.


Don't forget that arm-mounted weapons mean that your cockpit is in view of the enemy guns long before you can shoot at them if you're coming over a hill.

Quote:
The only reason the US didn't field a heavy tank in WW2 is because some general or another interfered with the development of such, the main US tank of the Korean war was a heavy tank intended for WW2.


That's not entirely true. The US had a heavy tank already finishing development when WW2 started (for us), it wasn't fielded because it was a PoS.


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Absalom, thanks for the reply first, now to the business,

I agree on the nukes for TCA as their best means of deploying a large explosion, but they also have fusion-base drive systems ( and similar torpedo's), which would be the better way ( more power vd a chemical base rocket ( which are obsolete in the outsider Uni). besides getting the warheads to the target is the challenge given the distance involved ( hence the prevance of beam weapon with AM torpedo as short to LR weapon, depending of the race and how used: Umaik mass LR missile fire, Loroi more precise SR firepower).

good points on the Gundam design problems ( also did wonder why the limb could be blasted off so easily in the series) I didn't think about those, I was thinking of purely cost based analysis ( IE mech warrior style).

about Sherman vs. Tigers, I concede the point u made. Differing Industrial output for both countries. The point I was trying to make was the difference is tank approach as related to mech's vs tration fighting crafts. The US in WW2, saw their involvement in Foreign wars so they made the Sherman very easy to maintain and mass produceable ( US was where Model-T were mass produced in the millions IIRC). The Germans took a more high performance, top of the line approach where their vehicle were the best but hard to produce in bulk. The heavy tank ( M26/46 Perishing) wasn't deployed because the US didn't think they would need a heavy tank ( and thus the Tigers became quiet a shock to the US brass when fielded, but became munt when 8 Sherman could take out 2 tigers, while losing 5 tanks. those 5 tanks were easily replaceable). As well fred is right that none of the heavy tanks wasn't developed properly for deployment ( although a few test M26 vehicles were rushed into Europe but by time they got their they saw very little action.)

as for power armour, Halo and 40K style, both those universes have their reason for mounting power armour. In halo the Spartan-II were meant as the counter insurgency, pin-point strike team that could infiltrate and take out/recover/neutralize different targets. When the Covenant showed up the S-II were the only ground force that would go up against the covies, win and still make it out. the newer Spartan-4 are a similar force but expanded to much larger force ( 31 s-2 vs 400+ s-4). In 40k WH power armour is only thing making humanity able to defend itself, but most of the armour is legacy tech as humanity is in a downward spiral of tech development ( technology is more religious then understood). In both universes to wear power armour requires a lot of surgical alteration and augmentation to use ( and thus limits their number, thought in 40K that doesn't seem to be a problem, but i'm not very familiar with the fiction so . . . )

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Tue Sep 17, 2013 8:22 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Can't remember if this was asked before, but do the Terrans know of another habitable planet/moon besides the ones they already colonized?

According to the Alien Contact summary, the Orgus vessel bumping on Humans at 82 Eridani were on the way to the 'Loop I bubble'.
Did they expect to make such a long journey when filled to the rim with refugees and likely limited supplies/fuel? It looks like its at least twice as far as the distance from Esperanza to Naam, which took 2 months for the Scout Corps vessels.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
GeoModder wrote:
Can't remember if this was asked before, but do the Terrans know of another habitable planet/moon besides the ones they already colonized?

"Habitable" is a subjective term, but there aren't any peach destinations that were in the queue for colonization.

GeoModder wrote:
According to the Alien Contact summary, the Orgus vessel bumping on Humans at 82 Eridani were on the way to the 'Loop I bubble'. Did they expect to make such a long journey when filled to the rim with refugees and likely limited supplies/fuel? It looks like its at least twice as far as the distance from Esperanza to Naam, which took 2 months for the Scout Corps vessels.

Yes, the Loop I bubble is very far away. They were probably short on supplies, which may have factored into the decision to stop running and request asylum.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
fredgiblet wrote:
Absalom wrote:
Better to credit this to power losses due to applying reciprocating forces to the legs, lower armor thicknesses due to the greater surface area, lower speeds due to the power losses in the legs, and higher vulnerability due to the increased height than to blame it on equipment costs, especially since any Gundam setting is a inherently unreliable source of hard data.


Don't forget that arm-mounted weapons mean that your cockpit is in view of the enemy guns long before you can shoot at them if you're coming over a hill.
Technically depends on where you have the arm(s) mounted, but good point regardless.

NOMAD wrote:
I agree on the nukes for TCA as their best means of deploying a large explosion, but they also have fusion-base drive systems ( and similar torpedo's), which would be the better way ( more power vd a chemical base rocket ( which are obsolete in the outsider Uni).
Better if you can get it miniaturized, yes. The last time I checked, the Polywell fusion device looked like it would only achieve net-positive power when above a certain size. If your pure-fusion bombs require too much size for your missiles to be effective, then there's no point to them (my father once mentioned that at one point some government had determined how to make a pure-fusion warhead that would work... but that a 1 megaton example would itself weigh in the realm of 1 megaton; might as well just use TNT).

NOMAD wrote:
good points on the Gundam design problems ( also did wonder why the limb could be blasted off so easily in the series) I didn't think about those, I was thinking of purely cost based analysis ( IE mech warrior style).
It's worth noting that when Battletech (the original name for the system, from the 70s or 80s) was initially developed they did some analysis, and determined that for the mechs to be better than the vehicles they needed to place some negative effects on the vehicles. So they did (maximum weight limit I think, but I'm not sure).

As for Gundams being fragile, that was likely for plot reasons. The physics of Gundam can be summed up by a paraphrasing of someone that Masamune Shirou knew in the 80s: "The parts, they're flying!".

NOMAD wrote:
as for power armour, Halo and 40K style, both those universes have their reason for mounting power armour.
NOMAD wrote:
In 40k WH power armour is only thing making humanity able to defend itself, but most of the armour is legacy tech as humanity is in a downward spiral of tech development ( technology is more religious then understood). In both universes to wear power armour requires a lot of surgical alteration and augmentation to use ( and thus limits their number, thought in 40K that doesn't seem to be a problem, but i'm not very familiar with the fiction so . . . )
I don't know of any reason why WH40k powered armor requires surgical modification, I believe that would likely be the process of creating a Space Marine instead (Space Marines aren't so much engineered, as modified after birth, maybe after adolescence, by implanting genetically engineered organs/symbiotes called gene-seeds created for the purpose). Which is not to say that WH40k is shy about surgical alterations (they're not quite Umiak... except when they are), but I don't think those are actually required to use powered armor in the setting. The main restriction on the stuff is cost & complexity (the main weapon of their armies, the lasgun, can apparently last generations, and recharges from sunlight; suffice to say, very low supply chain requirements for those).

In the real world I can see how a gene-seed equivalent would be useful (you could design one to generate electrical power, thereby answering the question of how you power the armor reliably in the field: extra food for the troops), but the Halo Spartan mods are dubious to me. Either the suits weren't designed right, or they were looking for something that unmodified humans probably NEVER could have done, and certainly couldn't have done while carrying equipment (hence why the armor was powered: you had to modify them to get the job done without armor and weapons, so with was pushing things a bit).


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Absalom wrote:
NOMAD wrote:
(...) In both universes to wear power armour requires a lot of surgical alteration and augmentation to use ( and thus limits their number, thought in 40K that doesn't seem to be a problem, but i'm not very familiar with the fiction so . . . )
I don't know of any reason why WH40k powered armor requires surgical modification, I believe that would likely be the process of creating a Space Marine instead (...)
(...) but the Halo Spartan mods are dubious to me. Either the suits weren't designed right, or they were looking for something that unmodified humans probably NEVER could have done, and certainly couldn't have done while carrying equipment (hence why the armor was powered: you had to modify them to get the job done without armor and weapons, so with was pushing things a bit).


From what I understand, the Spartans were originally designed as deep-infiltrators, but since the Mjolnir armor was being developed at the same time, they also designed them to be able to withstand the stresses that the armor would put on them. In one test case, they put a regular trooper into the Spartan armor and asked him to move normally. The armor responded so well, and so ridiculously quickly, to him moving his arm, it shattered the bones in his arm. And then proceeded to break every bone in his body as he reacted to the immense pain, amplifying his shudders of pain... or something.

Basically, the Spartans were engineered because their armor was far, far too dangerous to be worn by regular military personnel, whose bodies aren't designed to withstand the stress that comes with super-sensitive reflexes that came with the armor (there was mention in one of the novels that a Spartan could make a salute by simply thinking the action, and the armor did the rest of the motion for them)


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Jakelope13 wrote:
Absalom wrote:
NOMAD wrote:
(...) In both universes to wear power armour requires a lot of surgical alteration and augmentation to use ( and thus limits their number, thought in 40K that doesn't seem to be a problem, but i'm not very familiar with the fiction so . . . )
I don't know of any reason why WH40k powered armor requires surgical modification, I believe that would likely be the process of creating a Space Marine instead (...)
(...) but the Halo Spartan mods are dubious to me. Either the suits weren't designed right, or they were looking for something that unmodified humans probably NEVER could have done, and certainly couldn't have done while carrying equipment (hence why the armor was powered: you had to modify them to get the job done without armor and weapons, so with was pushing things a bit).


From what I understand, the Spartans were originally designed as deep-infiltrators, but since the Mjolnir armor was being developed at the same time, they also designed them to be able to withstand the stresses that the armor would put on them. In one test case, they put a regular trooper into the Spartan armor and asked him to move normally. The armor responded so well, and so ridiculously quickly, to him moving his arm, it shattered the bones in his arm. And then proceeded to break every bone in his body as he reacted to the immense pain, amplifying his shudders of pain... or something.

Basically, the Spartans were engineered because their armor was far, far too dangerous to be worn by regular military personnel, whose bodies aren't designed to withstand the stress that comes with super-sensitive reflexes that came with the armor (there was mention in one of the novels that a Spartan could make a salute by simply thinking the action, and the armor did the rest of the motion for them)


very true, the novel to find that info is Halo: Fall of Reach: Dr Halsey state the liquid metal that provide the muscles couldn't be scale black, their on 100% of the time, hence the need to augment the Spartans.

The WH 40K: I was referencing the motion comic that came with the 40K movie which I've heard isn't like that like the real fiction. anyway the comic mention the Space Marine received some mod to their back so they can wear the armour, but its not a world a know it depth ( read some fiction but not everything).

as for the fusion warheads, I think human torpedo's work in the similar fashion to Loroi torpedo's, where their warheads and fuel are combined. longer duration of fight = less boom when impact happens. But a self-contained warhead would be better system as the fuel could add to the missile impact.

good points on the Gundam and Battletech ( sry grew up with MechWarrior)

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Absalom wrote:
I don't know of any reason why WH40k powered armor requires surgical modification, I believe that would likely be the process of creating a Space Marine instead (Space Marines aren't so much engineered, as modified after birth, maybe after adolescence, by implanting genetically engineered organs/symbiotes called gene-seeds created for the purpose). Which is not to say that WH40k is shy about surgical alterations (they're not quite Umiak... except when they are), but I don't think those are actually required to use powered armor in the setting. The main restriction on the stuff is cost & complexity (the main weapon of their armies, the lasgun, can apparently last generations, and recharges from sunlight; suffice to say, very low supply chain requirements for those).


Technically, WH40K power armor doesn't need surgical modification of the wearer to be useable. The Sisters of Battle and Inquisitors where power armor without mods...

NOMAD wrote:
The WH 40K: I was referencing the motion comic that came with the 40K movie which I've heard isn't like that like the real fiction. anyway the comic mention the Space Marine received some mod to their back so they can wear the armour, but its not a world a know it depth ( read some fiction but not everything).


...but, the Black Carapace allows the Marine to directly interface their central nervous system (and other organs) to the power armor. The in-universe reason is that improves armor efficiency (movement, protection, drug delivery, etc).


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Hello I'm new and have questions does humanity's independent nations have there own space fleets? and if so how big? I don't expect these to be massive or anything just there size comparing to the TCA fleet


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Post Re: Miscellaneous Terran question-and-answer thread
Murica wrote:
Hello I'm new and have questions does humanity's independent nations have there own space fleets? and if so how big? I don't expect these to be massive or anything just there size comparing to the TCA fleet

The individual worlds have police frigates that are responsible for local patrol and law enforcement. These are limited by treaty as to size and number.

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