Reply to topic  [ 3489 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132 ... 140  Next
Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread 
Author Message

Joined: Sat Jul 01, 2017 9:22 pm
Posts: 53
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Siber wrote:
What I'm getting at is that even if the Loroi did police that kind of thing, the nature of sanzi would probably make it a lot less brutal and implacable than the real world attempts. It being harder to lie makes it harder to call an honest statement false. Maybe it'd just make the whole thing more comfortable rather than actually less evil, but it's something to think about.


I think you very much misunderstand how dictatorships with thought police act and the assumptions they make about the general populace. The process of thought policing and brainwashing isn't to root out a few active rebels and someone with an actual plan as they try to enact it, it's to make sure they can never think of rebelling. That's why successful real world dictators always put such a heavy emphasis on how youth are treated and how the general populace acts. If you condition the individual and the entire group they're in early enough, and weed out any undesirables within that group at first sign of resistance, the entire idea of armed resistance stops being possible to begin with.


Mon Jan 29, 2018 11:10 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 148
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Jayngfet wrote:
I think you very much misunderstand how dictatorships with thought police act and the assumptions they make about the general populace. The process of thought policing and brainwashing isn't to root out a few active rebels and someone with an actual plan as they try to enact it, it's to make sure they can never think of rebelling.


That's pretty much the process of every society, though.


Mon Jan 29, 2018 12:29 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Sep 21, 2015 4:02 pm
Posts: 20
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Jayngfet wrote:
I think you very much misunderstand how dictatorships with thought police act and the assumptions they make about the general populace. The process of thought policing and brainwashing isn't to root out a few active rebels and someone with an actual plan as they try to enact it, it's to make sure they can never think of rebelling. That's why successful real world dictators always put such a heavy emphasis on how youth are treated and how the general populace acts. If you condition the individual and the entire group they're in early enough, and weed out any undesirables within that group at first sign of resistance, the entire idea of armed resistance stops being possible to begin with.


I think that would apply better if the Loroi were humans.

The Loroi aren't human -- they resemble it in many respects, but by necessity have a combination of both greater control over their thoughts on an individual level and less concern for thoughts on a societal level. Lying and diplomacy are skills that require training, as every thought to the contrary can slip out into the public. This means that for most of their history, deception has been difficult -- and as such within their society deception is outside the norm.

Successful real-world dictators put their emphasis on controlling the behavior of the youth because to a real-world dictator, deception both a constant, steady threat, and the key to continued survival. That doesn't really work with the Loroi. No large-scale rebellious Loroi group can escape the notice of their leadership because their beliefs are visible to the population at large. No leader can bold-faced lie to their close-by, direct opponents without having to fight their own head over what to "say"; no government can crack down on the opposition with false-flag operations and over-the-top propaganda without risking continuous information leaks from their own party members. And perhaps worst of all, being a snitch is exceedingly difficult when you can reveal yourself by thinking about being a snitch.

It seems to me like Loroi society has developed with the idea that you can't actually control what any individual member of the population thinks 100% of the time, so they don't try to.


Mon Jan 29, 2018 1:50 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:46 am
Posts: 114
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
The Loroi-Umiak conflict seems a lot like Fascism vs Collectivism.


Wed Jan 31, 2018 5:16 am
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:37 am
Posts: 62
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
raistlin34 wrote:
The Loroi-Umiak conflict seems a lot like Fascism vs Collectivism.


not really, least of all because nether side really fits the collectivism idea much, at best its a case of light fascism (loroi are fascism towards their own but work well with a group of largely independent allies ) and heavy fascism (umiak who gang press every race they come across into indentured servitude and eventual environment collapse to feed there need to grow.)


Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:21 am
Profile

Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:46 am
Posts: 159
Location: Czech Rep., European Union
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
dex drako wrote:
raistlin34 wrote:
The Loroi-Umiak conflict seems a lot like Fascism vs Collectivism.


not really, least of all because nether side really fits the collectivism idea much, at best its a case of light fascism (loroi are fascism towards their own but work well with a group of largely independent allies ) and heavy fascism (umiak who gang press every race they come across into indentured servitude and eventual environment collapse to feed there need to grow.)


I'd say the Umiak are fairly high on the collectivism scale. They basically don't have much of an individualist ethos; individuals identify themselves by their job and position in the society and accept their fate without resistance. They mount endless suicidal charges against the Loroi, and it doesn't look like they are forced to do so by their variant of the NKVD. Whatever their system of government is (Hierarchy doesn't say much), it appears it is not one based on extreme coercion – the citizens submit to this rule willingly.

As for the other species, well, the Soviets had not problems with exploiting conquered nations either.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 6:56 am
Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:00 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Athens, Greece
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
I would argue that the Loroi aren't fascist; fascism is one extreme of socialism (with the other well known extreme being communism). Fascists hold the nation as paramount, preaching that true socialism can only be reached if the people of the nation fully focus their efforts in bettering the nation's society; on paper this sounds benevolent like communism does but on practice things get screwy because of the inevitable introduction of ultra nationalist rhetoric since every authoritarian government needs to trick the people to look away from the mess the government has made to society at large.

The Loroi are a caste based stratocrasy; their society doesn't revolve around an utopian goal like fascism or communism do. Loroi society just functions that way.

_________________
My fan fics

Looking forward to the Mirror (Delayed Editing)
The pale horse (Completed)
Reforged (Semi regular updates)


Thu Feb 01, 2018 12:22 pm
Profile

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:46 am
Posts: 114
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
dragoongfa wrote:
I would argue that the Loroi aren't fascist; fascism is one extreme of socialism (with the other well known extreme being communism). Fascists hold the nation as paramount, preaching that true socialism can only be reached if the people of the nation fully focus their efforts in bettering the nation's society; on paper this sounds benevolent like communism does but on practice things get screwy because of the inevitable introduction of ultra nationalist rhetoric since every authoritarian government needs to trick the people to look away from the mess the government has made to society at large.

The Loroi are a caste based stratocrasy; their society doesn't revolve around an utopian goal like fascism or communism do. Loroi society just functions that way.


Fascism has nothing to do with socialism. Fascism is extreme nationalism: one nation , one race, one culture and one great leader to guide them all. Minorities and disident are dangerous and must be denounced, persecuted and removed one way or another.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 1:09 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:00 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Athens, Greece
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
That's how ultra nationalism works, fascism as preached by Benito Mussolini (it's father) is best put down in the fascist manifesto:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist_Manifesto

Fascism was just one of the first cases of 'no previous iteration of socialism is true socialism'. The system as it was preached changed to a mockery of what was once preached, much like all attempted iterations of communism.

_________________
My fan fics

Looking forward to the Mirror (Delayed Editing)
The pale horse (Completed)
Reforged (Semi regular updates)


Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:31 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:37 am
Posts: 62
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Victor_D wrote:

I'd say the Umiak are fairly high on the collectivism scale. They basically don't have much of an individualist ethos; individuals identify themselves by their job and position in the society and accept their fate without resistance. They mount endless suicidal charges against the Loroi, and it doesn't look like they are forced to do so by their variant of the NKVD. Whatever their system of government is (Hierarchy doesn't say much), it appears it is not one based on extreme coercion – the citizens submit to this rule willingly.

As for the other species, well, the Soviets had not problems with exploiting conquered nations either.


we don't really know that much about the umiak to say they "accept their fate without resistance". i mean just because we don't see it doesn't mean its not there, like we're all very sure they poo but they have too. the only insight into the umiak we have is there military force and those "suicidal chargers", being identified by there job and accepting there fate are just the normal coming and goings of war. so in that way the umiak are no different then any other army even the loroi.

as far as i know we have little to no clue how the umiak work outside of their military.


dragoongfa wrote:
I would argue that the Loroi aren't fascist; fascism is one extreme of socialism.


i don't know who told you that Dragoonfa but they were either lying through there teeth or just too stupid to know what these world really mean. socialism is the idea that everyone gets a equal say in making decisions that effect the group. while communism is the idea of a small ruling body making all the decisions on what everyone needs and should do with the idea of treating everyone fairly (it should work like a mother and father does in a family).

these two idea are almost complete opposites.

and like raistlin34 said Fascism is were the moneyed elites use nationalism, violence and the fear of "the other" to concentrate power for themselves and oppress the rest of the population. it is a highly conservative governing ideology which is very much against the idea behind socialism.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:39 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:00 pm
Posts: 1198
Location: Athens, Greece
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
I suggest people who argue about this read the works of Karl Marx, Engels and then find the similarities with what the Fascist manifesto preached. In theory they are all extremely similar and the political parties that practiced Fascism and Communism when they came in power all promised 'socialism' to the masses of people who supported them.
History has the nasty tendency of repeating for a reason.

_________________
My fan fics

Looking forward to the Mirror (Delayed Editing)
The pale horse (Completed)
Reforged (Semi regular updates)


Thu Feb 01, 2018 2:49 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 148
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
dex drako wrote:
we don't really know that much about the umiak to say they "accept their fate without resistance".


Based on the umiak page on this website, they refrain from extending their own life through biological enhancement, even though its quite possible.

dex drako wrote:
i don't know who told you that Dragoonfa but they were either lying through there teeth or just too stupid to know what these world really mean. socialism is the idea that everyone gets a equal say in making decisions that effect the group. while communism is the idea of a small ruling body making all the decisions on what everyone needs and should do with the idea of treating everyone fairly (it should work like a mother and father does in a family).


This is completely wrong. In no conception of socialism has it been held as the 'idea that everyone gets an equal say in making decisions that effect the group'. That's radical democracy, not socialism.

dex drako wrote:
and like raistlin34 said Fascism is were the moneyed elites use nationalism, violence and the fear of "the other" to concentrate power for themselves and oppress the rest of the population. it is a highly conservative governing ideology which is very much against the idea behind socialism.


You describe socialism and communism both here as well as fascism. Sure, socialism and communism are both more internationalist in perspective, but in the other respects they are both ideologies that use violence and fear or hatred of "the other" (in this case the capitalist and the bourgeois classes) in order to concentrate power for 'themselves' (the party) and oppress the rest of the population. Labeling any governing ideology as anything but conservative, once its revolutionary stage is complete, is nonsensical. As soon as socialism has become the governing ideology its maintenance is a conservative effort. All these ideologies are populist, revolutionary and reactionary in nature. Fascism is merely more revolutionary than socialism, as it is a revolution both against the historical ideology that had ruled europe and the socialist revolutions that were ruining european civilization at the time as well.


Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:04 pm
Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2011 9:33 pm
Posts: 698
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
To all those confused by why fascism is being described as a form of socialism, I feel an explanation is due. Here are some definitions:

Firstly, socialism: socialism is the utilization of the fruits of productivity to society as a group. The use of taxes to better society can be considered a form of socialism, as can community service, or the use of the profits of a government-owned business for the community (e.g. to pay for firer fighters). Some particular political movements try to apply socialism, and use the word to refer to themselves, but those are just examples, and do not confine the nature of socialism. Notice that I have said nothing about democracy: democracies, oligarchies, and monarchies can all be socialist in nature, because socialism is ultimately an economic trait.

Second, communism: communism is the ownership of that which is required to produce by the actual producers. The old USSR soviets were genuinely communist, owner-operator businesses without employees are often inherently communist, and employee-owned businesses can be communist in nature. The communist governments we have seen have largely been communist at the small scale, with enforced socialism at the higher levels (also, they've been oligarchic, corrupt, and various other negatives, but those are mostly unrelated to the relation of socialism, communism, and fascism).

Finally, fascism: fascism is the politico-economic philosophy derived from the ancient Roman (and possibly Latin in general) Fasces, a type of symbolic ax where the handle was formed of several rods tied together, instead of as a single piece. The Fasces symbolized the binding together of society into a whole, and thus symbolized communal action. The similarity to socialism is obvious, the trick being that socialism covers a wider range than fascism does. In fascism, all parts of society are obligated to pay their loyalty to the group, and thus rather than a business owner operating their business for themselves, they are supposed to operate it for their workers, as well as society as a whole. Nationalism is an obvious hybridization target for fascism, but ultimately not required: while nations are population groups, fascism could instead designate a country as it's "society", or even some group ultimately exterior to itself: the nation is just the most obvious choice. The Nazi party even included "socialist" (that's what the 'z' stands for) in it's name.


Meanwhile, none of these ever get applied directly, and in the case of communism and fascism they tend to either start (if someone is pushing for political change, there's usually something material or philosophical in it for them) or become corrupted and myopic oligarchies. Quite natural, given that the communist and fascist governments we've seen have been carnival-mirror reflections of each other.

The only reason why fascism is commonly associated with the right and communism with the left is because when fascism was defeated, the political right was insignificant, and communism was still being hailed as the wave of the future. If we had gone to fight Stalin and temporarily allied with Hitler then it would be the opposite (a much bloodier opposite, but an opposite regardless). Both are communal and socialist in nature, with the difference being in the application (Marx wanted the under-classes to overthrow the upper classes and act as state-commanded ants, Mussolini wanted to keep the upper classes while having them act as subordinate officers of the state: same category, different details).


Thu Feb 01, 2018 11:22 pm
Profile

Joined: Mon Mar 17, 2014 9:57 am
Posts: 8
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Absalom wrote:
The Nazi party even included "socialist" (that's what the 'z' stands for) in it's name.


'Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei', or 'NatSi'- 'National Socialist German Workers' Party'. A strong commitment both to socialism and to nationalism.


Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:01 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:53 am
Posts: 175
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
nweismuller wrote:
'Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei', or 'NatSi'- 'National Socialist German Workers' Party'. A strong commitment both to socialism and to nationalism.


By the way, it was never officially called the Nazi party. It's "Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei", abbreviated as NsDAp or in some places simply NS. The English word "nazi" is a short form that stems from the German language pronunciation of "national" where the T sounds like a phonetic Z or TS


Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:46 am
Profile

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:46 am
Posts: 114
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
nweismuller wrote:
Absalom wrote:
The Nazi party even included "socialist" (that's what the 'z' stands for) in it's name.


'Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei', or 'NatSi'- 'National Socialist German Workers' Party'. A strong commitment both to socialism and to nationalism.


Yeah, and North Korea regime is called "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". :roll:


Fri Feb 02, 2018 5:04 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 148
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
raistlin34 wrote:
Yeah, and North Korea regime is called "Democratic People's Republic of Korea". :roll:


I don't mean to blow everyone's collective minds but that's not actually an incorrect descriptor. North Korean dictators are democratically elected, which makes North Korea both democratic and a republic.


Fri Feb 02, 2018 4:02 pm
Profile

Joined: Wed May 20, 2015 2:14 am
Posts: 553
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Their election rules do not fit our definition of "democracy".
But then, neither did the Greek city-states "democracies" in ancient times....

_________________
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123


Sat Feb 03, 2018 12:43 am
Profile

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 148
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Krulle wrote:
Their election rules do not fit our definition of "democracy".
But then, neither did the Greek city-states "democracies" in ancient times....


Yeah, because westerners idea of democracy brings in a lot of ancillary principles that are unrelated to both democracy and republicanism, like property rights and constitutional powers.


Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:29 am
Profile

Joined: Sun Nov 08, 2015 8:46 am
Posts: 114
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Krulle wrote:
Their election rules do not fit our definition of "democracy".
But then, neither did the Greek city-states "democracies" in ancient times....


Sketching the definition enough, even Ankh-Morpork is a democracy: "One man, one vote." :lol:


Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:08 am
Profile

Joined: Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:08 pm
Posts: 62
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch; a question. Who is the grey skinned, golden eyed Loroi on your Patreon page?


Sun Feb 04, 2018 3:49 am
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:19 pm
Posts: 2545
Location: San Jose, CA
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
harlequin2262 wrote:
Arioch; a question. Who is the grey skinned, golden eyed Loroi on your Patreon page?

That's an avatar illustration that I sometimes use. He's not a Loroi, but sort of a fusion of the Dark Elf character that I played in Age of Wonders I and a character from Digital Devil Saga.

https://ariochiv.deviantart.com/art/Dig ... -178478112

_________________
Outsider


Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:21 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2018 2:29 pm
Posts: 24
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
Gorbash wrote:
Do the Loroi ever delve into cybernetics and bio-engineering for their soldiers, or is that kind of frowned upon because of the association with the Umiak?

The Loroi use cybernetic implants for a few specialized purposes (you could say that psi amplifiers are a form of cybernetic implant), but in general they do not see any benefit to large scale use among soldiers. The Loroi are content to use armored vehicle or self-propelled robot heavy weapons for roles that the Umiak would assign to armored cybernetic hardtroops.


Do the psi amplifiers "plug in" to a Loroi's body or do they just need to be properly positioned? I was picturing that Fireblade or Ashrain could remove their amplifiers easily, but now I'm not so sure.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:32 pm
Profile
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:19 pm
Posts: 2545
Location: San Jose, CA
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
inxsi wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Gorbash wrote:
Do the Loroi ever delve into cybernetics and bio-engineering for their soldiers, or is that kind of frowned upon because of the association with the Umiak?

The Loroi use cybernetic implants for a few specialized purposes (you could say that psi amplifiers are a form of cybernetic implant), but in general they do not see any benefit to large scale use among soldiers. The Loroi are content to use armored vehicle or self-propelled robot heavy weapons for roles that the Umiak would assign to armored cybernetic hardtroops.


Do the psi amplifiers "plug in" to a Loroi's body or do they just need to be properly positioned? I was picturing that Fireblade or Ashrain could remove their amplifiers easily, but now I'm not so sure.

There are both types. Fireblade's amplifier can be removed at will, but it attaches to plugs that are surgically implanted.

_________________
Outsider


Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:15 pm
Profile WWW

Joined: Fri Jun 02, 2017 8:27 am
Posts: 148
Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
There are both types. Fireblade's amplifier can be removed at will, but it attaches to plugs that are surgically implanted.


Is the surgical implantation there to make the connection/amplification stronger? That is, do the loroi actually have that much knowledge of telepathy that they can enhance it through surgery? Or is this just a case of making the "connection" stronger.


Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:30 am
Profile
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Reply to topic   [ 3489 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132 ... 140  Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Warringrose and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group.
Designed by STSoftware for PTF.