Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

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dragoongfa
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

Governments of all kinds are bound to have ministries of Health, Infrastructure and Education that are staffed by people who know how to run them. For the Loroi to not have the equivalent of them is ridiculous to even consider.

There is bound to be a Doranzer Surgeon General who is the chief adviser/minister of Health. There is bound to be a Gallen Engineer general responsible for all the infrastructure and there is bound to be a Listel Master/Chief Archivist to hold all of the top secret knowledge that the heads of the government may need. Now if these chiefs don't ascend to Torrai before getting these positions doesn't mean that they aren't part of the government or that their castes don't get a say in how the government runs.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Hālian »

If I recall correctly, it's the loroi analogue to the UK's Privy Council.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Victor_D »

Arioch wrote:
Victor_D wrote:BTW Arioch (sorry if this was discussed before), but do Loroi have the concept of a "dissident"? As in a person who opposes the ruling regime and wishes to change it, for example civilians or even warriors opposing the caste system and the "leading role" of the Torrai caste, these sort of things. How do the Loroi treat them? (Or rather used to treat them before the war; I understand that in wartime, any subversive activities will likely be punished harshly). Do they mostly let them prattle on, knowing that they are completely marginal and nobody listens to them, or do they actively suppress dissent, in the way totalitarian/authoritarian regimes do here on Earth?
It depends on how one expresses one's opposition. One the one hand, Loroi society is one that values honesty and having the courage of one's own convictions; if a person disagrees with something, she is expected to say so. On the other hand, Loroi society has rigid customs and a clear hierarchy of authority; once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.

There is open debate and "loyal opposition" parties in Loroi political life. The chief opposition party is the Loroi Axis, which is essentially a republican faction that desires to reduce the power of the imperial central government in favor of regional assemblies. Members voice objection to policies which they disagree with, but then are expected to support whatever decisions are made. Opposition is considered a civic duty, and it is also a well-respected act of courage (because when the inevitable occasional internal conflict arises, your opponents know who you are, and while they respect your courage that doesn't mean they won't kill you). Stillstorm is a supporter of the republican movement, which is part of the reason why she is where she is.

Greywind was a vocal opponent of the policies of the previous emperor before she herself acceded to the position, and this is an example of how change can come to a system like this: if you voice disagreement to a policy and that policy fails, others may be more likely to listen to you in the future. (But that doesn't mean you won't have to bump off some opponents at some point along the road.)
So it appears that only the warrior castes engage in what we could call national politics. Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals, so I guess prisons/re-education camps/exile to marginal colonies far away from anything important...? Or are the Loroi closer to the USSR/Nazi Germany in dealing with dissidents (death either by 'bullet' or hard labour)? Is there any significant dissent among the civilians who are discontent with being effectively disenfranchised "proles" (in the 1984 meaning of that word)?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Siber »

Victor_D, where are you getting "Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals"? From how I've read Arioch's statements in this thread, vocal dissent is tolerated, disobedience isn't, especially in the military castes. You can say a policy is dumb or wrong, but if you're assigned to carry it out, you've got to do it or be punished. That doesn't seem exceptionally repressive to me. Nor does it sound like civilians are banned from voicing opinions on the way of things, I would guess that rather they'd just have trouble finding anyone who will listen that has the power to change things. If you did have large political movements among civilians in opposition to the current ruler or system of government then I would imagine things could and would get quite a bit uglier, but that doesn't sound to be the status quo at present.

I do want to be clear I don't think the Loroi government is nice and cuddly, as Arioch stated it's a military dictatorship, it sounds like succession usually involves at least the threat of violence, and civilians are openly second-class citizens. It'd not be high on my places to live. But there's a broad spectrum between a basic military dictatorship and Stazi or KGB style deathgrip on a populace, and jumping to the extreme end of that spectrum immediately seems very unwarranted
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Victor_D wrote: So it appears that only the warrior castes engage in what we could call national politics. Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals, so I guess prisons/re-education camps/exile to marginal colonies far away from anything important...? Or are the Loroi closer to the USSR/Nazi Germany in dealing with dissidents (death either by 'bullet' or hard labour)? Is there any significant dissent among the civilians who are discontent with being effectively disenfranchised "proles" (in the 1984 meaning of that word)?
It is true that civilians have no voice in the national government, since it is exclusively military... but it's also true that the rank and file warrior doesn't have any voice in the national government either, since it's not a democracy. Civilian participation in local affairs varies according to time and location; many settlements have town councils or chambers of commerce in which civilians participate, though the influence of some of these organizations was curtailed in the crackdown after the attempted coup in 2140. And, of course, civilians have authority within their own guilds and companies.

As Siber mentioned, "dissent" (the expression or holding of opinions at variance with those previously, commonly, or officially held) is not illegal and is tolerated. As a practical matter in a telepathic society in which truth is almost unavoidable, trying to restrict speech would be essentially trying to restrict thought, which I don't really think is practically possible outside the most extreme Orwellian thought experiments. Civilians are free to voice dissent, and they are free to work towards change as long as they do so within the framework of the law. However, since boycotts or work stoppages would be illegal (especially in time of war), it is true that they don't have many legal options to promote change.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Victor_D »

Siber wrote:Victor_D, where are you getting "Dissenters opposing this system are clearly treated as criminals"? From how I've read Arioch's statements in this thread, vocal dissent is tolerated, disobedience isn't, especially in the military castes. You can say a policy is dumb or wrong, but if you're assigned to carry it out, you've got to do it or be punished. That doesn't seem exceptionally repressive to me. Nor does it sound like civilians are banned from voicing opinions on the way of things, I would guess that rather they'd just have trouble finding anyone who will listen that has the power to change things. If you did have large political movements among civilians in opposition to the current ruler or system of government then I would imagine things could and would get quite a bit uglier, but that doesn't sound to be the status quo at present.

I do want to be clear I don't think the Loroi government is nice and cuddly, as Arioch stated it's a military dictatorship, it sounds like succession usually involves at least the threat of violence, and civilians are openly second-class citizens. It'd not be high on my places to live. But there's a broad spectrum between a basic military dictatorship and Stazi or KGB style deathgrip on a populace, and jumping to the extreme end of that spectrum immediately seems very unwarranted
See below. For the record, I am not making any moral stand here or trying to judge the Loroi system of government (it's fiction, why should I). I am merely interested in how they deal with those individuals who are just unwilling to submit to laws/customs/traditions they disagree with.
Arioch wrote:As Siber mentioned, "dissent" (the expression or holding of opinions at variance with those previously, commonly, or officially held) is not illegal and is tolerated. As a practical matter in a telepathic society in which truth is almost unavoidable, trying to restrict speech would be essentially trying to restrict thought, which I don't really think is practically possible outside the most extreme Orwellian thought experiments. Civilians are free to voice dissent, and they are free to work towards change as long as they do so within the framework of the law. However, since boycotts or work stoppages would be illegal (especially in time of war), it is true that they don't have many legal options to promote change.
I apologise for not making myself sufficiently clear, I guess there is a difference in meaning in English I don't fully appreciate – what I mean is people who not only voice their dissenting opinion, but insist on it, despite being told to let go. As you said:
(...) once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.
I just wonder what specifically happens to these criminals (who in human terms would be called dissidents, prisoners of conscience, political criminals) – are they killed/worked to death/assigned to penal battalions? "Re-educated", possibly using extreme telepathic means? Given long prison sentences (which I assume would be impractical in a society where individuals can live for hundreds of years)? Exiled for life to far-away colonies (something like Australia in the 19th century)? All of the above?

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

I think the point is that Loroi can't really insist that anyone "let it go." With a few rare exceptions, telepathy conveys what is on someone's mind in a way that is direct, honest, and unvarnished. The best a Loroi seems to be able to do is say something like, "You're not getting your way, and I find you annoying, go somewhere else and bother someone else."

For the Loroi, they've mostly all grown up in a society where this truthfulness is normal and expected. I imagine someone with just an opposing opinion (as in, not acting out harmfully, but just thinking their thoughts.) is like a person who chews with their mouth open, or smells bad. Everyone knows someone like that, and you might not want them around, but they're not going to get locked away. Bullied on the playground, maybe.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Siber »

Victor, I think the point in your last quoted section is that "you are expected to comply" doesn't mean you are expected to agree. You are told where to march, you can say what you think of that order and say where you think you should march instead, but unless your commanding officer agrees, you still have to march where you're told. You are treated as a criminal if you march somewhere else anyway, or start talking about how you'd like to kill your commanding officer for being so stupid. Most militaries, indeed most organizations, treat that kind of thing the same way broadly speaking.

I suppose the lines can blur if you are ordered to shut up, but given the emphasis on honesty and the fact that Arioch said courage in one's convictions is encouraged, that seems like it's only going to happen if someone is being actively corrosive on morale.
I am not making any moral stand here or trying to judge the Loroi system of government (it's fiction, why should I). I am merely interested in how they deal with those individuals who are just unwilling to submit to laws/customs/traditions they disagree with.
Yeah, I wasn't entirely reacting to anything you'd said so far, just trying to stave off a certain category of distracting tangents from all possible sources, not just you.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Victor_D wrote:
(...) once you've made your objection, if you are overruled by a superior, you are expected to comply. Questioning authority is acceptable, but disobeying authority is not. Insubordination is a crime, even in peacetime. If you announce that you intend to overthrow the government, that threat will be taken seriously and you will be treated as a criminal.
I just wonder what specifically happens to these criminals (who in human terms would be called dissidents, prisoners of conscience, political criminals) – are they killed/worked to death/assigned to penal battalions? "Re-educated", possibly using extreme telepathic means? Given long prison sentences (which I assume would be impractical in a society where individuals can live for hundreds of years)? Exiled for life to far-away colonies (something like Australia in the 19th century)? All of the above?
It depends on the offense. For civilians it starts with the guild or company that employs the individual, as under Loroi law, organizations are to some extent legally responsible for the actions of their dependents and employees. A person who refused to work or was insubordinate, or who tried to encourage others to do the same, could be punished by the guild with fines or reductions in pay, benefits or privileges, or demotions. Offenders are offered psychological counseling in the cases where a treatable mental disorder may be responsible for the misbehavior. A repeat offender could lose her job and be dismissed from the guild. Someone who committed a serious crime (including criminal conspiracy, treason, advocating the overthrow of the government, etc.) would be handed over to the government criminal justice system.

As you might expect of a military dictatorship, the Loroi can be harsh in how they deal with criminality. Loroi generally do not use long-term incarceration as a punishment. If an offender does not respond to attempts at correction (fines, counseling, removal of privileges, corporal punishment), she will often be eliminated. In a martial society in which even the privileged warrior class must accept that death is often part of their duty, they are not shy about using capital punishment. In ancient times, exile was sometimes used as a punishment (making the offender someone else's problem), but in modern times with global and interstellar governments, that's not really a beneficial option.

There are not a lot of government restrictions on the everyday behavior of civilians, so there are not normally a lot of cases in which civilians get themselves into trouble with the government (unless they are engaged in criminal activity or actively fomenting rebellion, which is not tolerated even in the most liberal of societies).

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

The idea of a lack of restrictions in a caste system is ridiculous. That's the point of a caste system. The Loroi civilization is a military dictatorship with rigid and all encompassing civic roles. That's how you wrote them.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Siber »

Perhaps a distinction is being made here between restrictions imposed by the central military government and those imposed by the civilian castes or cultures. So long as the military keeps the restrictions on who gets in the warrior castes, and the civilians stay in line, they can manage their own affairs and castes? Afer all, the military wouldn't want to worry about lowly civilian trades and their concerns.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

The military caste is entirely self contained. You're born into it and you die in it. Nobody just gets into it.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Jayngfet wrote:The idea of a lack of restrictions in a caste system is ridiculous. That's the point of a caste system. The Loroi civilization is a military dictatorship with rigid and all encompassing civic roles. That's how you wrote them.
I'm not sure I understand your objection. Loroi civilians have restrictions in terms of what kinds of roles they can perform -- they're not allowed to join the warrior class or do any of the jobs that are reserved for warriors. That's not what I mean by "restrictions on everyday behavior."

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Jayngfet »

Arioch wrote:
Jayngfet wrote:The idea of a lack of restrictions in a caste system is ridiculous. That's the point of a caste system. The Loroi civilization is a military dictatorship with rigid and all encompassing civic roles. That's how you wrote them.
I'm not sure I understand your objection. Loroi civilians have restrictions in terms of what kinds of roles they can perform -- they're not allowed to join the warrior class or do any of the jobs that are reserved for warriors. That's not what I mean by "restrictions on everyday behavior."
Yes, but you must see how this is disingenuous sounding. You're essentially claiming that you're born and die on an assignment handed out by a military dictatorship, wherein you have no real chance to enact political change at a meaningful level, no political representation for a majority of the citizens(for a certain value of citizen that discounts most of the empires population already), and that whatever measures exist to theoretically counter this have never been attempted(and even then there are obvious problems with with if any of that would ever actually work).

Which is one thing and consistent with itself, but then you also claim that in another context this is a reasonably liberal society where people can say what they like and voice objections ...provided they never act on them.

You're using implicitly contradictory terminology to describe a situation and that's the kind of thing people will call attention to.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by dragoongfa »

Loroi are telepaths. You can't stop them from thinking and each and every individual will think of their toll in life and their very thoughts will be dissentious if they don't like it. As telepaths that is the reality they cannot change, what they can do is make sure that everyone who acts on those thoughts is severely punished. The Loroi government will bring down the hammer hard if someone acts on their thoughts but since they are completely unable to police their thoughts then they allow them to think. In short its impossible for the Loroi to stop the exchange of thoughts, their telepathy has no 'off' button and as such they have no choice but to allow the thinking of dissent.

Human totalitarian regimes can police 'thoughts' up to a point by making sure to police discussion itself. The people simply cannot know what others nearby think and as such they cannot act even if the majority thinks the same. It's an old trick where by making sure that there is no safe alternative to information the people will trick themselves in thinking that whatever the government says is the only explanation. Even in the western world the danger of this happening is present. This is the real danger of having news outlets collude into what they report and tech giants deciding to police the content of the internet. Completely free exchange of all ideas and lines of thought is the only way of avoiding our societies be tricked into becoming totalitarian.

The Loroi cannot do anything but allow their free thought but because of this they have to make sure to stamp out any and all acts of rebellion early and absolutely. This is probably the reason as to why the warrior castes are fully half of the Loroi population despite the fact that most of them haven't fought in any meaningful way in the war and as thus they aren't warriors in the way we picture them. The warrior castes have just made sure that the disgruntled civilians never outnumber them, thus making the act of rebellion itself all the more difficult since successful rebellions and revolutions always relied in the strength of numbers to violently enact change.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Victor_D »

Arioch wrote:(...)
As you might expect of a military dictatorship, the Loroi can be harsh in how they deal with criminality. Loroi generally do not use long-term incarceration as a punishment. If an offender does not respond to attempts at correction (fines, counseling, removal of privileges, corporal punishment), she will often be eliminated. In a martial society in which even the privileged warrior class must accept that death is often part of their duty, they are not shy about using capital punishment. In ancient times, exile was sometimes used as a punishment (making the offender someone else's problem), but in modern times with global and interstellar governments, that's not really a beneficial option.
Thank you, that answers my question.

Though I think the idea of a penal colony is not necessarily anachronistic for a star-faring civilisation (provided they are not entirely happy with just killing people outright); especially the Loroi. All they need is find some marginally habitable planet far from anywhere and dump the dissidents there without industrial-era technology. Without access to males, they couldn't breed, but being long-lived, they'd probably spend centuries there as hunter-gatherers.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Arioch »

Jayngfet wrote:You're essentially claiming that you're born and die on an assignment handed out by a military dictatorship, wherein you have no real chance to enact political change at a meaningful level, no political representation for a majority of the citizens(for a certain value of citizen that discounts most of the empires population already), and that whatever measures exist to theoretically counter this have never been attempted(and even then there are obvious problems with with if any of that would ever actually work).

Which is one thing and consistent with itself, but then you also claim that in another context this is a reasonably liberal society where people can say what they like and voice objections ...provided they never act on them.
I never claimed that Loroi society is liberal, but the nature of telepathy means that suppression of speech just isn't a practical possibility. While I do believe that free speech is a requirement to have a free society, I don't agree that it follows that lack of suppression of speech will necessarily lead to a free society. For one thing, the forced honesty required by telepathy cuts both ways; it makes it harder for the government to keep secrets from the people, but it also makes it easier for the government to maintain control. I think it's possible for a government to be transparent while still being authoritarian.

The vast majority of human beings who ever lived on this planet were born into a working class in which they were expected to work at the same job as their parents for their entire lives, with no opportunity for advancement, no political representation whatsoever, and no ability to enact political change at any level. They were usually ruled by an aristocratic warrior class that maintained power by force. Prior to the Enlightenment, this was considered the normal way to live. It did work, for some ten thousand years for nearly every civilization on the planet, right up to and including the present day. I don't accept the premise that this system succeeded only because no one ever bothered to talk about it, and I don't think it's true that all of these societies strictly controlled speech or were inherently repressive (some were, some weren't). It's possible to have consent of the governed in non-democratic systems; not all monarchs must be tyrants. The social controls that keep a society in order are usually exerted by every element of the society, not just the government. Speaking out directly against the rulers was often illegal, and no society ever tolerated fomenting of rebellion, but short of that, these governments usually didn't have the resources to concern themselves with the petty grumblings of every peasant. It was not really until the modern age that certain governments attempted to exert total control over the populace (which didn't work very well even with the aid of modern technology).
Victor_D wrote:Though I think the idea of a penal colony is not necessarily anachronistic for a star-faring civilisation (provided they are not entirely happy with just killing people outright); especially the Loroi. All they need is find some marginally habitable planet far from anywhere and dump the dissidents there without industrial-era technology. Without access to males, they couldn't breed, but being long-lived, they'd probably spend centuries there as hunter-gatherers.
Perhaps if there was a huge pool of convicts... maybe if there was a large scale rebellion that failed, and the losers refused to reassimilate, and if executing tens of thousands of people might cause further unrest... maybe. Otherwise, interstellar transport and colonization have significant costs; it doesn't seem like an efficient way to dispose of criminals. Any planet habitable enough that people could live on it without advanced life support is very valuable; I don't think you'd want to seed it with criminals. I think that most historical penal colonies were first and foremost labor camps. In an age of robotics, I don't think the value of unskilled labor is high enough to make forced labor viable.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by Siber »

Freedom of personal speech doesn't automatically imply a free press as we'd recognize it either, which is an important element of 'free society' as we know it. Seems like Loroi culture wouldn't put as much stock in such a thing anyway, since anything not transmitted by 'word of mouth' is less trusted. That would likely limit the ability for personally expressed dissatisfaction with the way of things to become sweeping unrest or pushes for change.
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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by boldilocks »

Jayngfet wrote:Yes, but you must see how this is disingenuous sounding. You're essentially claiming that you're born and die on an assignment handed out by a military dictatorship
When it comes to civilian 'assignments' my understanding is that the military doesn't concern itself overly much. (Probably will involve themselves in matters of civilizational security)

As for military assignments, that's how it works in liberal societies today. You join the military, you obey. Loroi society technically offers the civilian caste more liberty from military dictatorship than a liberal human society that has a draft.

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Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread

Post by entity2636 »

dragoongfa wrote:Governments of all kinds are bound to have ministries of Health, Infrastructure and Education that are staffed by people who know how to run them. For the Loroi to not have the equivalent of them is ridiculous to even consider.
Actually, the Loroi government doesn't have any of that, as far as one can gather from the Insider info and other Arioch's posts about their government.

Education - there is no one central Ministry of Education, because each Loroi caste has it's own system of education that is run by the corresponding caste's top brass. Each caste has it's own caste specific nurseries, kindergardens, boot camps and schools. Do understand, that every Loroi person is, in fact, property of their caste and to an extension - the state (being equal to the military) from the day they are born until the day they die and beyond. Also, understand, that after maximum of a couple weeks (for males - I understand it's instantly) a Loroi child is separated from it's mother and transferred to it's caste's nursery. As soon as the child is taken over by the system, it is systematically brainwashed into blindly and unquestioningly following the course of the system. Those who do not meet the castes' quality criteria, are rejected and become civilians and are handed over to guilds who raise them and train them. I don't remember reading anywhere that civilians were even allowed to reproduce, so I assume they are not.

Infrastructure that is not military installations (managed and operated by Soroin/Torrai and run at the pipes-and-bolts level by Gallen) is "beneath" the Loroi military government and under civilian management. Note, that in the Loroi society civilians are rejected/failed warriors, those that are deemed defective or unworthy at kindergarden age and are seen not as "second class" citizens, but more like "subhuman" by the State and ruling elite. Second class citizens are the military support castes. Also, the Loroi don't even build their own starships and installations. IIRC Neridi build their starships, the Pipolsid provide them with the drives and other high-energy systems. Their weapons are based on reverse engineered excavated Soia artifacts or on tech provided by the Historians. Actually, the Loroi as a society have not invented or developed anything or close to anything. What they have they have dug out of the ground, found in space, were given by others, or blatantly stole from other races.

Health - Maybe I'm wrong, but I get the impression, that the Doranzer are the lowest of the military support castes, even below the engineers and just a hair above civilians, given how the Loroi value life. I would imagine a Loroi "warrior" would prefer to die from the flu or from a grown in toe nail than visit a doctor, because it would make her look weak and unworthy. Keep in mind, that for a Loroi death is preferable to demotion or discharge from the military. Reading about the Loroi society in general and how it "evolved", I'm honestly surprised that they even have medics in their military, or at all. Were it not for the Soia artifacts littered around their homeworld, the Loroi would probably still be bashing each others' skulls in with rocks on a stick.
dragoongfa wrote: There is bound to be a Doranzer Surgeon General who is the chief adviser/minister of Health. There is bound to be a Gallen Engineer general responsible for all the infrastructure and there is bound to be a Listel Master/Chief Archivist to hold all of the top secret knowledge that the heads of the government may need. Now if these chiefs don't ascend to Torrai before getting these positions doesn't mean that they aren't part of the government or that their castes don't get a say in how the government runs.


No, it means exactly that - they are not part of the government are don't get a say in how things are run. They are little more than civilians, one could see them as civilian guilds that the military reluctantly accepted as "warriors" because they somehow kind-of needed them for their war effort.

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