Page 87

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Some Useless Geek
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Re: Page 87

Post by Some Useless Geek »

ACME anvils...yes, that's very phunny. So, I guess this means you have no sense of what weapons could be derived from as-yet-unknown technologies? Or that we are capable of deriving superior science once given a slight leg up? Or that we could simply take what weapons and other technologies are in current use by the combatants and improve upon it significantly? Why not?

Sorry, I just don't have time to waste in arguing that humanity isn't good at making sharper sticks once we have the impetus to do so. Attempts to brush aside the obvious with delicate elbow jabs to the ribs won't distract me -- or others who see the truth in my statements -- from the fact that we've shown this propensity throughout our entire recorded history. I see nothing to stop the trend just because we take up space flight.

As I said before, give humans a millimeter and we'll take over the galaxy. Well, if the galaxy is peopled by those in the Outsider 'verse.
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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 87

Post by Mjolnir »

Some Useless Geek wrote:The real point I was trying to make (before the flame degeneration) is that mankind in general is pretty quick on its feet, technologically. The Loroi and Umiak technology is pretty impressive, but their science is not. I still think that Terrans, given some pretty basic technologies enjoyed by either Loroi or Umiak, could reverse engineer and improve upon these technologies, then extend them to even better "stuff."
I don't think that's disputed, but the time required is not insignificant. Not just to get manufacturing equipment up and running, but for things like updating design software and getting people trained on the new capabilities and limitations.

Some Useless Geek wrote:For instance, artificial gravity control could lead to at least a half dozen weapon systems I can bring to mind off the top of my head. And I'm not as smart as the people who are charged with the responsibility of defending the country -- or the world, or the empire, or whatever. Any scientific advance can be turned into a useful and potent weapon if the right <cough, ack, thpth> people get a hold of it.
The Terrans in Outsider already have gravity control. And it's possible it is of a nature that makes it generally unsuitable for weapons...achievable field strengths might be inherently too low for mass drivers, or they might not be able to direct and control the fields so that a weapon that can compete with electromagnetic mass drivers doesn't rip itself apart. There's no reason to think it can be projected at a great distance or easily scaled up in intensity to make a "gravity bomb". Local gravity field generators would certainly have military uses...they would have interesting possibilities for fortifications or crowd control, for example...having gravity control just doesn't mean you have a new superweapon.

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Imbrooge
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Re: Page 87

Post by Imbrooge »

@Arioch:

So basically you are almost practically admiting that an entire subset of living beings might possibly have the unique trait of not sending out any thought signals at all for the Loroi to pick up on. Great, more fuel to the fire.

And Dolphins and Whales, funny how they resemble potentially Soia linked Pol.

What's next, our anti-Psychic quirk was a natural defense against Eldar Gods sleeping under the soil of the Earth and all life simply adapted a natural resistance to the insanity aura that they emit?

EDIT: Of course I am not at all serious about these accusations.

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Re: Page 87

Post by Majincarne »

Imbrooge wrote:@Arioch:

So basically you are almost practically admiting that an entire subset of living beings might possibly have the unique trait of not sending out any thought signals at all for the Loroi to pick up on. Great, more fuel to the fire.

And Dolphins and Whales, funny how they resemble potentially Soia linked Pol.

What's next, our anti-Psychic quirk was a natural defense against Eldar Gods sleeping under the soil of the Earth and all life simply adapted a natural resistance to the insanity aura that they emit?

EDIT: Of course I am not at all serious about these accusations.
Next episode, Alex walks out onto the bridge says "Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn" and all the Loroi and Umiak begin scrathing at their faces and soon fall to the floor frothing.

Humans win GG. :lol:

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Re: Page 87

Post by fredgiblet »

Some Useless Geek wrote:Sorry, I just don't have time to waste in arguing that humanity isn't good at making sharper sticks once we have the impetus to do so.
No one's arguing against that. What we ARE arguning against is the idea that this is going to be a simple, fast process. If the Loroi or Umiak drop a derelict ship into our laps it's not going to be a matter of a 5 minute montage of engineers arguing around a chalkboard before we have a Historian grade ship ready for deployment.

Even WITH help it's going to be years before we get to the point that we can replicate existing technologies, once we've mastered that we will certainly start expanding our knowledge rapidly, but by that point we'll also be firmly ensconced in our new alliance as well. I think it's very likely that 20 years from now humans will be the R&D arm of the Loroi Empire, but we sure as hell won't be allowed to have a fleet that could even think of challenging the Loroi.

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Re: Page 87

Post by Voitan »

Arioch wrote:Humans brains are very closely related to all other mammal brains. If Humans have a characteristic that makes them hard for Loroi telepathy to read, it's probably not scientific to assume that other Earth mammals don't have the same characteristic.

This is not at all relevant to the story. I'm just saying this because the happy telepathic dolphin is a silly cliche.
Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.

Left/right brain hemisphere split, "super conducting"-like internal body structure, high in iron content in blood, and a body that runs relatively hot to in essence, create a faraday cage to all telepathic signals, from getting in, or out.

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Re: Page 87

Post by Mjolnir »

Voitan wrote:Left/right brain hemisphere split, "super conducting"-like internal body structure, high in iron content in blood, and a body that runs relatively hot to in essence, create a faraday cage to all telepathic signals, from getting in, or out.
There's not that much iron in the blood, an iron-containing pigment just happens to be the dominant coloring agent, and it's not in a form that makes it any good for shielding. And our tissues aren't in any way remotely describable as "superconducting".

If blocking telepathy was a matter of Fe 2+ and Fe 3+ ions and heated shielding, it'd not be nearly so difficult to figure out how to block it.

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Re: Page 87

Post by Voitan »

Mjolnir wrote:
Voitan wrote:Left/right brain hemisphere split, "super conducting"-like internal body structure, high in iron content in blood, and a body that runs relatively hot to in essence, create a faraday cage to all telepathic signals, from getting in, or out.
There's not that much iron in the blood, an iron-containing pigment just happens to be the dominant coloring agent, and it's not in a form that makes it any good for shielding. And our tissues aren't in any way remotely describable as "superconducting".

If blocking telepathy was a matter of Fe 2+ and Fe 3+ ions and heated shielding, it'd not be nearly so difficult to figure out how to block it.
I think you forgot something from my post.

Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 87

Post by Mjolnir »

Voitan wrote:Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.
Not if they know as much about biology as the effectiveness of their treatment of Alex implies.

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Imbrooge
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Re: Page 87

Post by Imbrooge »

Beryl didn't know if he was alright without asking implies that they only know basic composition and anatomy, not the more specific details like biochemistry.

EDIT: He lost consciousness from a lack of oxygen right after he saw a big ship coming at him, thats probably why he recovered at all and the others didn't. Like it was right on top of him, and he was alright for several hours prior so he clearly wasn't bleeding to death so all they had to do was rescusitate him.

Voitan
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Re: Page 87

Post by Voitan »

Mjolnir wrote:
Voitan wrote:Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.
Not if they know as much about biology as the effectiveness of their treatment of Alex implies.
I think you're reading more into what I mean than is necessary.

I'm saying they would use those words as an expression to describe something different than their biology. Not literally. Unless you think Loroi are incapable of expressing a simile.

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Mjolnir
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Re: Page 87

Post by Mjolnir »

Voitan wrote:I think you're reading more into what I mean than is necessary.
What am I supposed to read into it?

Voitan wrote:I'm saying they would use those words as an expression to describe something different than their biology. Not literally. Unless you think Loroi are incapable of expressing a simile.
You mentioned a straightforward and potentially relevant physical trait of the human body (our brain is divided into two distinct hemispheres), a wildly inaccurate description of bodily tissues as "superconducting" (they aren't superconductors, they don't behave anything at all like superconductors, there's no reason for anyone looking at the physical properties of human tissues to think of superconductors), and a couple mentions of straightforward bodily traits that, while accurate, are almost certainly completely irrelevant (iron and temperature). No similes in sight. "Simile" doesn't explain why "Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV, of the human body as the reason to the lotai effect.". At best, one of those things will draw attention as a possible factor.

It'd be interesting to know how a non-telepathy-resistant human mind might appear to a species without a split brain structure, though. Might have problems reliably getting the half that has language ability...

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Re: Page 87

Post by Voitan »

The point is, Alex has an alien biochemistry from Loroi, they'll describe his foreign biochemistry in language with whatever pops into their mind and my post is taken from a hypothetical POV.

Don't get bent out of shape over this.

They'll think that everything different about his body may contribute to his lotai effect.

The relevant part of my post you keep on glossing over:
Loroi will probably think these observations/descriptors from their POV

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Re: Page 87

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Hawking, his theories. His theories read to the undergrads. Harvey Cushing, his patient under the knife. Reporters. News reporters. News reporters and their badly conflated conceptions. Shaka when the walls fell.

Oh wait, I'm thinking of metaphors...

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth, but I get the impression that the point Mjolnir is trying to make is that the Loroi have studied a lot of different races, seen lots of different chemistries, and have some amplification technology, so they're probably not groping in the dark for answers.

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Re: Page 87

Post by Solemn »

Okay, I've thought for a while about something that probably doesn't matter all that much. I've really only skimmed through this thread, so if this was already discussed, I apologize.
I think that when Commander Kikitik 27 refers to "the alien communication," he's talking about Alex's distress signal, not the Bellarmine's broadcast of friendship messages.

On Page 63, Beryl said that they were unaware of the Bellarmine until Alex started transmitting, but that upon examining their sensor data from the battle, she found the Bellarmine's broadcast, followed immediately by four energy spikes which indicate a plasma focus was used to hit the Bell, and that the damage to the wreck is consistent with plasma focus damage. Beryl seemed to have a slightly uncomfortable look to her while she was explaining this, but that could just be me reading too much into her expression. Tempo then added that Loroi pulse cannons have a distinct signature. Then they brought up the subject of Alex's subsequent transmission.

So the Umiak could have been unaware of the previous transmission just as the Loroi were, having been somewhat preoccupied at the time. Unlike the Loroi, the Umiak would not have been able to use Alex's vector and the Bell's initial vector to find a likely point of origin, and thus would have had to scan through all of their sensor logs for all directions at all times leading up to and after the battle if they wanted to be thorough about investigating the alien transmission. But, the data IS there; the Loroi sensors picked it up, and the Umiak were within combat range of the Loroi at the time. There can't be too much of a difference between their sensor abilities, since the Umiak were able to effectively leverage the proplyd as an ambush site, meaning that they'd have to be able to pick up the Loroi through the cloud at least at about the same time that the Loroi could pick them up. So it's possible that the Umiak learned of the Bell's transmission. But, to me, their actions make this seem unlikely. Here's my reasoning.

Beryl, not Tempo (the on-duty Lie-Smith), told us that she detected the repeated discharge of a plasma focus, and she said this before we had visual confirmation of the plasma focus' color; neither Beryl nor Tempo nor anyone else on the bridge had any reason to believe that Alex would get to see the Umiak plasma focus in person. Beryl also doesn't seem like she'd be very good at any level of subterfuge or deception. At all. Which indicates that the plasma focus bursts, which immediately followed the Bellarmine's transmission, were identifiable as plasma focus shots, based on sensor data alone. Now, she DID say this AFTER Alex said the beam he saw was green-ish, so deception isn't entirely off the table, but it seems a little unlikely. Since Tempo was the one who added the part about pulse cannons having a distinct signature, that part's a bit more likely to be a lie, but, why would she bother lying about that?

If the Umiak had looked at the Bell's transmission, they'd see the repeated discharge of a plasma weapon, too. If Tempo is to be believed, then it would be a weapon matching the plasma focus, and not matching the Pulse Cannon. Were I the Umiak commander, that would have terrified me. If I believed that unidentified parties are being blown up far from the battlefield by unanticipated Loroi-aligned groups, waiting for an opportunity, AND that the unknown Loroi ships in question had fully functional plasma foci, which would indicate that:
1. Loroi have mastered the plasma focus.
2. The Loroi have an unknown ship or ships waiting by the sidelines to some unknown purpose, armed with next-generation weapons.
3. The Loroi may have anticipated your manner of attack and have possibly been playing you, since they have an unknown ship of unknown capabilities acting towards unknown purposes which had never attempted to fight you despite clearly possessing the ability to do so.
4. The Loroi have expanded the war in an unanticipated direction, taking action against an unknown species, which, if conquered, could grant them unknown resources or technological advantages.
and/or
5. The Historians have decided to venture out of their own territory on combat-related errands; we're all going to die.

And any ONE of those things could be vital intelligence, which would have to be relayed to Umiak command.
Which would mean sending ships back into Umiak space, since you would otherwise be limited to trying to send signals at the speed of light, what with the lack of telepathy.
However, the Umiak ran a probing feint at the Loroi, which, among other things, would have showed them that none of the ships grouped around the Bell were firing plasma foci. So at least one unknown Loroi ship loaded with next-generation plasma weaponry is lurking elsewhere, possibly salivating at the idea of you splitting up your forces, possibly lurking in order to kill anyone intent on relaying a message home, so under those circumstances I would definitely NOT try opening negotiations as a stalling technique while a smaller number of ships tried to exit the system. If I were 27 there and I had detected the Bell's transmission, then what 27 is doing is nearly the last thing I'd do.

But, if I were 27 and I HAD destroyed the Bellarmine, then what he's doing right now is DEFINITELY the last thing I'd do. Shutting down their engines is an absolutely HUGE show of good faith, even if it's JUST a show and there's another Umiak attack group bearing down on the Loroi at the same time. Shutting down their engines AFTER the Loroi had shown that they would stay in place for as long as possible, just to confuse the Loroi, really isn't something I'd do. If I'd destroyed the Bellarmine, I wouldn't have had any reason to do that, because I'd have had my time with her, or not, after said destruction. The acquisition of her hull would be irrelevant to me at this point, but the opportunity to get a running start and take out the 51st would not. This fleet really doesn't seem like a trivial portion of their forces in this system, either. The idea of hiding an ambush force in the proplyd seems like something that would work better with a few pockets of dispersed forces in high-density areas than a single major force all balled up in one dense pocket, and I get the feeling that even though the 51st had already beaten back the ambush once they still weren't aware that there were anywhere near this many superheavies in the Umiak fleet, which would mean that they'd have only beaten back a portion of this force, rather than all of it at once, which in turn means that 27 had to first aggregate this force from a number of smaller disparate forces before exiting the cloud. So he'd have brought a huge number of ships together and sent them in formation out of the cloud, just to have them hit the brakes. So the idea that there's an equivalent or larger force getting a running start--a running start that the WHOLE fleet could have had instead--under the, previously unheard-of, guise of parley, just seems a little much. It also seems foolhardy and inexpedient, because he doesn't know how much time the Loroi might need to fulfill their unknown purposes with the derelict, and also partly because such deception would diminish the Umiak ability to parley for real should it become necessary, for little immediate gain. If I HADN'T destroyed the Bellarmine, though, then I might try it, if only to give myself a little more scanner time with the wreckage before the Loroi scuttle it and run off. Might be able to figure out what the Loroi were up to then.

27 said that their probing run let them observe the alien craft at close range. Beryl said the damage to the Bell was consistent with the damage caused by a plasma focus. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's INconsistent with damage caused by a Pulse Cannon, since, in the Starship Combat Sim .pdf, both plasma foci and pulse cannons have the Armor-Ablating special; it might look a lot alike. So even with the data from their probing run, they still might not be able to tell the difference between a pulse cannon scorch and a plasma focus scorch. So, as long as 27 didn't know about the destruction of the Bellarmine until he saw the wreck and as long as he didn't go through the sensor logs and find that first transmission, he might not have any way of knowing. So, if the Umiak had neither destroyed the Bellarmine NOR found the Bellarmine's transmission (and the plasma focus discharges that would entail), then bargaining for a while as a means of stalling the Loroi makes some sense as it would allow you to send a ship back to Umiak space with SOME intelligence, regarding how well your ambush worked, how well whatever psi-dampening effect seems to have worked, and also what you saw regarding the Loroi shooting up a strange alien craft, meaning you might just have gained a new willing ally. But I think there's a chance 27 might be completely sincere.

The Umiak might be able to see that they're missing something important if they decided to check through their sensor data. They can probably tell where Alex's transmission came from, and look at where the Bell is right now, and check to see if their sensors indicate any pulse cannon discharges within an appropriate volume in the time between receiving Alex's transmission and their earlier feint, but that'd seem pretty excessive if you thought that the Loroi, yourselves, and one apparently marginally relevant alien vessel transmitting alien pop culture references were the only things in the system; after all, the Loroi got to it first, you saw marks consistent with pulse cannon fire on the hull, the Loroi are now working it over and hovering around it, it all paints a pretty complete picture. I don't think checking the wreckage's current velocity would be particularly helpful since the Loroi could/should have subsequently altered its vector, possibly in order to get it as far from the dense parts of the proplyd--where they KNOW the Umiak are lurking in wait--as possible.

As a side-note, if I were Stillstorm I would prevent any piece of the Bell from fall into Umiak hands at any cost--including the death of the human envoy--unless the Umiak already have their hands on a few human survivors. Alex told the Loroi that his ship was sent to search a range of systems. The Loroi cannot be sure that they have already removed all traces of navigational data from the Bell; for all they know, humans could fingerpaint star-charts on the interior walls of their ships with invisible ink for good luck. The Umiak could look at the systems the Bell was searching and use that to determine a range of systems from which the Bell could possibly have come. It'd at least give them a few directions to start looking in. The Umiak might not care enough to really bother, but the rewards that the Umiak could potentially reap would make any trade unthinkable.

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anticarrot
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Re: Page 87

Post by anticarrot »

fredgiblet wrote:No one's arguing against that. What we ARE arguning against is the idea that [upgrading earth's tech base] is going to be a simple, fast process. If the Loroi or Umiak drop a derelict ship into our laps it's not going to be a matter of a 5 minute montage of engineers arguing around a chalkboard before we have a Historian grade ship ready for deployment.
By the same logic though, organising a 200 lightyear trip is not a simple matter either. Neither is arranging humanity's first First Contact situation. Or translating an alien language. Or any number of other things that probably happened before page 1, and between page 1 and page 2. They've probably had (say) 6 months since their realisation that they might just need a bigger navy. That's time enough to do something, even if it's just kick the shipyards into high gear and move the economy to a war footing.

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Re: Page 87

Post by fredgiblet »

anticarrot wrote:By the same logic though, organising a 200 lightyear trip is not a simple matter either. Neither is arranging humanity's first First Contact situation. Or translating an alien language.
None of those things are even in the same league as jumping 100+ years forward in technology in 2 years.
That's time enough to do something, even if it's just kick the shipyards into high gear and move the economy to a war footing.
Absolutely, but that's putting a band-aid on a .50 cal chest wound.

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Re: Page 87

Post by osmium »

Solemn wrote: Shutting down their engines AFTER the Loroi had shown that they would stay in place for as long as possible, just to confuse the Loroi, really isn't something I'd do.
Just to note we don't have any indication (to my knowledge) of how far out said attack group is. For all we know they are blocking the vector required to head back toward Loroi space and are far enough out that being at a stand still isn't a huge tactical disadvantage such that there is little reason in wasting energy building up velocity especially if the situation is as abnormal to tictak27 as he's implied (meaning it's not clear how to proceed hence tactical decisions aren't obviously easily weighed and compared).

-O

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Ktrain
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Re: Page 87

Post by Ktrain »

Solemn, perhaps the reason the bugmen stopped in place is that they know if they pursue the 51st that the 51st will retreat and destroy the remaining wreckage. Engaging the enemy is not really going to happen in this fight.

@ fredgiblet, gearing up a war economy and producing a larger fleet might not play a military role but rather a diplomatic role. Such behavior might signal to the belligerents that humanity takes threats seriously and potentially garner some respect/better treaty terms. Umiak value efficiency and productivity, and if man can substantially expand/support their military beyond what is typical for a small interstellar nation, then this might be something that they would value. For the Loroi, a larger fleet and military could signal that mankind has a military tradition, which is something that could garner respect/express commonalities.
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?

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anticarrot
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Re: Page 87

Post by anticarrot »

Solemn wrote: 1. Loroi have mastered the plasma focus.
2. The Loroi have an unknown ship or ships waiting by the sidelines to some unknown purpose, armed with next-generation weapons.
3. The Loroi may have anticipated your manner of attack and have possibly been playing you, since they have an unknown ship of unknown capabilities acting towards unknown purposes which had never attempted to fight you despite clearly possessing the ability to do so.
4. The Loroi have expanded the war in an unanticipated direction, taking action against an unknown species, which, if conquered, could grant them unknown resources or technological advantages.
and/or
5. The Historians have decided to venture out of their own territory on combat-related errands; we're all going to die.
What about 6: Oh frell. Has one of my subordinates just done something amazingly stupid?

The Loroi are within reliable communication range of each other. The Umiak aren't. Too much dust in the way. A single small ship might have shot at the Bellermine (and then tried to cover it up by shooting it some more) without asking permission first, and without telling anyone afterwards.

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