Page 87

[Ktrain]

And I disagree about the importance of humanity. While they are of little use now, a 25 billion person workforce being injected into the Loroi's estimated 50-100 billion isn't a small thing. Arioch also stated that the Terran home solar system could produce more then the most productive Loroi Alliance system. Given 5 years or so (not much time at all for this war), the industrial boost given by Terrans could push the war in the Loroi's favor.

I wonder how the productivity of the Sol system compares with Umiak systems. Are Umiak systems more productive than Loroi on a per capita basis or do the Bugmen have more inhabited systems/higher population. Though I doubt that this war will be concluded with a military solution, (because that would make a less interesting story), I really enjoy pondering the logistics and industrial capacities of the combatants.

[Overkill Engine]

The exchange between leaders reminds me of something I read in a book once upon a time:


Sméagol: Give us that, Déagol, my love.
Déagol: Why, Sméagol?
Sméagol: Because it's my birthday, my love, and I wants it.

[Grayhome]

I have a feeling that it is the quality, not the quantity of Sol's produced star ships that will be important when Humanity joins the fight.

[Karst45]

So, assuming the Umiak are being up-front here, they didn't blow up the Bellarmine, and this group, at least, has never encountered human spaceships before. It's almost unfortunate the Historian envoy wasn't around for this conversation; it's reaction might have been informative.

Yep maybe that how important Alex will become to the story. Both party will now wonder who shot the bell, maybe find a common enemy (the reaper) and be forced to ally.

So ether they are liying (loroi seem to think the Umiak work a lots with "deception/scheme") Or there truely a 3rd party involved.

I fell that StillStorm reaction will be quite dramatic.

Also, the fact that Kikitik-27 notes that the assault was 'costly' does show that the Umiak are at least somewhat concerned about ship losses, if perhaps only due to their military value.

well they probably mean costly because they lost ship but didnt gain anything or not as much as they would have liked.

Just that the Loroi considering it important=Umiak must get it.

Any one else had the idea of setting a trap derelict protecting it just to make the umiak want it, then detonate (or what ever do most damage) the thing when they take it?


am a little confused [The Storm Witch] do he refer to stillstorm? is she that well know?

[Ktrain]

Industrial capacity can be exploited in other ways other than ship production Grayhome. Read up on comparative advantage; the Loroi outsource some production to Sol and that frees up industrial capacity which can be better utilized to produce more ships/weapons than the current terran economy.

On another tangent, the Umiak might figure the Loroi are setting a trap and are attempting to spring it since the Loroi are behaving strangely. Furthermore, they might have called up their strategic reserves in the Naam system just to be on the safe side.

[Grayhome]

I am inclined to doubt the Loroi Imperium would deploy any significant material investment to Earth without a significant military fleet to guard it and I equally doubt that the Terran government would allow such a fleet to be deployed in the Sol system, or any system under or near to Terran authority. The trust just isn't going to be there for such an arrangement no matter how badly the war is going for the Loroi Imperium. If either the Loroi or the Umiak simply arrives in Terran space with a battle fleet and demands entry I can only predict an aggressive response no matter the technology gap or numerical superiority of the alien hostiles. We are humans; it is our nature to strike a foe if there is even the smallest chance of victory.

However if one side or the other were to come in with a badly damaged, understrength squadron and a polite request for repairs in return for something of equal value (i.e. information about the war, technological blueprints of the systems the terrans are repairing, a political favor or two) I can see that happening.

I agree with you on the strategic reserves coming into play soon, as we have received word of author on that subject many times now. The war will soon come to a head and I cannot waitto see the when, where, and how of it.

[Trantor]

Any one else had the idea of setting a trap derelict protecting it just to make the umiak want it, then detonate (or what ever do most damage) the thing when they take it?

Possible. Additional shot through the bridge to get sure there are no witnesses, and then unperceived Alex spoils the show by waking up and transmitting.
How long did he float unconscious? 30min? 2h?

am a little confused [The Storm Witch] do he refer to stillstorm? is she that well know?

For sure. They have intel, too.

[fredgiblet]

am a little confused [The Storm Witch] do he refer to stillstorm? is she that well know?

Yes and yes.

I equally doubt that the Terran government would allow such a fleet to be deployed in the Sol system

Implying we'll be given a choice in the matter. To be fair though we probably will, that choice will likely be "submit or die."

If either the Loroi or the Umiak simply arrives in Terran space with a battle fleet and demands entry I can only predict an aggressive response no matter the technology gap or numerical superiority of the alien hostiles. We are humans; it is our nature to strike a foe if there is even the smallest chance of victory.

No.

If a battle fleet shows up we won't attack, that would be stupid. Attacking will guarantee that we won't have a say in our alliance, accepting our new overlords will give us an opportunity to have some degree of negotiations regarding the nature of our new leadership.

[caldazar]

I wanted to add a vote to those who are saying the Historians blew the Bell. That seems the mostly likely explanation to me.

But the stated reasons seem inadequate give the backstory. I doubt the Historians are interested in technology testing or the strategic consideration of Loroi and Umiak military strength.

If we accept (as is implied in the Insider) that the Historians are the only species whose techlevel has survived the end of the Soia empire, then they have a massive tech advantage over either of the combatants. To use an analogy which has probably come up on these forums before, the Historians are the Vorlons. Massive tech advantage, very secretive, obscure goals which are so far beyond considerations of territory and galactic politics as to be nearly incomprehensible.

I doubt that either the Loroi, the Umiak, or the readers have any idea of the Historians true techlevel. I expect they could wipe out both combatants with ease, but doing so does not comport with their goals, whatever those might be.

There's obviously more going on in the overall story here than two expansionist races getting into a slugfest, and I expect the Historians destroyed the Bell, started the war, and just generally have been mucking around with everyone for reasons of their own, which should be fascinating to find out when the story gets to that point.

I would also point out that this need not necessarily make them the "real bad guys." Kosh did some dickish stuff, to say nothing of what Ulkesh got up to, but the Vorlons were never the "bad guys" really.

If anyone doesn't get the references, then here, this should explain it.

[Grayhome]

I believe the Terrans will have a trick or two up their sleeves when it comes to space/ground combat, as we all hope it will. Only a fool would have sent out ambassadorial vessels with invitations to a Terran diplomatic fiesta if they weren't prepared to defend their worlds and populations in some fashion. Fools make for a poor space opera methinks.

I am finding it unlikely that Captain Jardin (or we for that matter) have knowledge of the TCA's up to date military hardware that has undoubtedly been in development since the Orgus contact. When you hear that half the galaxy is embroiled in an ever expanding and worsening war, you start polishing your rifle. Captain Jardin will definitely have training and familiarity with Terran tech that is the decade old dinosaur standard we've all been debating about, but as several vessels have recently undergone a refit they will likely with newer weapons, shielding, armor and possibly a few special systems (plot armor!) that both he and we as the audience are not aware of at this time.

Terrans are not a stupid civilization, word of author has established many a time that the Terran's lack of comparable military hardware is due to the fact that they haven't put the money/production/research into military technology until recently due to a lack of need, this doesn't mean they're diminished in the capacity to research and develop more effective weapons given the proper motivation... and they've had over two whole years to make shiny new toys. What I mean to say is that perhaps the TCA is holding back the more recent advancements from those diplomats that are being sent to interact with the mind reading, genocidal alien society with the very long row of finely polished war skulls. Just a guess there.

I know I certainly wouldn't give a diplomat who was making first contact with an alien race known to possess the ability to read minds the knowledge of our most recent military technology and capabilities. What was that old saying: that no torture, nor threat of torture can force a person to reveal knowledge they do not know?

[icekatze]

hi hi

Alex may not know design specifications of Terran military technology, but we can reasonably assume that he is well educated in some of humanity's more advanced sciences, like FTL in particular since he was a navigator/pilot. Also, being capable of damage control is something that would be necessary on any vessel, so you'd need at least someone on board who knows how the thing works.

In a more abstract sense though, the Orgus made it painfully clear to humanity that the warring powers were bigger and badder and there was essentially no way for humanity to catch up any time soon. The whole point of the mission was to make nice with someone so that they don't decide to wipe humanity out. The members of the expedition are going to have to make decisions on the fly that will effect the survival chances of the entire human race, therefore they have a distinct need to know everything humanity has to offer a potential ally in return for the protection that they literally cannot accomplish on their own.

They know from the Orgus that galactic civilizations do get along well enough with their allies, and have done so for a long time, so I don't think there's too much worry about hosting an allied war fleet in your own system... at least when compared to the option of letting a hostile power have free reign to bombard whatever they please.

[Grayhome]

I also vote it was the skinny nerds, their ambassador rolled his fingers on page no. 62. He might as well be sporting a goatee and laughing maniacally! Also did anyone else think that his response to Tempo's question on page no. 60 wasn't in actuality a denial?

And come to think of it, the Outsider Insider entry on Races of the Loroi Alliance has this to say about the Pol, the mysterious Historian client race: "The Historians claim that they are protecting a vulnerable species from exploitation by others...". I don't know about anyone else, but my immediate thought process went "... I notice they didn't say exploitation by everyone, just others. ".

It all seems seems a bit shifty to me.

[fredgiblet]

The Loroi and Umiak outclass us by such a wide margin that defense isn't even really worth considering. We can probably piss them off with our military but that's about it, and pissing off the people who can kill you with the push of a button isn't a very good idea.

Regarding weapon systems, we actually DO have an idea of what's being done:

As you can expect, there has been much furor among humanity over what to do. They know that impeding contact with one side or the other will possibly make whatever steps they take a complete waste of time, but since they have nothing else to do but wait, they are going ahead very aggressively with any projects they can.

First and foremost would be to put a rush on those warships which are under construction and not yet completed, and reactivation of some building projects that had been previously cancelled but not yet scrapped. Second would be short-term upgrades that can be applied to their existing fleet, such as the modular heavy beam cannon upgrade for the America-class cruisers. Third, there will be a lot of planning for new warships, but it is unlikely that they will start construction on anything new until they have established contact and know more about what will be required of them, and what assistance (if any) they can expect.

While it's possible that there's magic devices that he hasn't mentioned Arioch has been pretty consistent with the idea that humans aren't going to magically jump to a level where they can stand toe-to-toe with the Loroi or Umiak and get away. Without help we simply don't have the tech to challenge them. 2 years is not nearly enough to make a significant difference, developing the Excalibur round took far longer than that and it was entirely composed of existing technologies. Additionally the lack of numbers is due to lack of need, technological progress is still pursued by humans, we just are starting from too far behind to catch up yet.

Only a fool would have sent out ambassadorial vessels with invitations to a Terran diplomatic fiesta if they weren't prepared to defend their worlds and populations in some fashion

Prepared to defend them? Absolutely. Prepared to start a war with a vastly superior force because they show up and say they're in charge? Not likely. The goal of the government is going to be self-preservation, if it looks like we stand a good chance of success then we might fight, if it doesn't then we will negotiate the best possible terms we can, but ultimately give over control.

[Karst45]

I wanted to add a vote to those who are saying the Historians blew the Bell. That seems the mostly likely explanation to me.

But the stated reasons seem inadequate give the backstory. I doubt the Historians are interested in technology testing or the strategic consideration of Loroi and Umiak military strength.

They started the Umiak/loroi war just to bet on who would win the war. Unfortunately one of the Dog got out of the pit and bite them. forcing them to give an advantage to the other dog.

[Ktrain]

Does anyone else think that the Historians are not even a biological species but rather just an AI remnant of Soia empire. Maybe the Pol are actually the ones pulling the strings...?

The most humanity can do militarily is make themselves puff up like a blowfish and appear stronger than they actually are. Mankind might be able to make some prototypes field ready, but those advancements most likely won't make much difference in actual combat.

[dex drako]

Come on guys we're just getting to the end of the FRIST chapter, we haven't even met the entire cast yet so there’s on reason for us to have met the real villain of the story.

So in the hunt for a villain you're making the Historians out to be more evil then the story or insider makes them out to be.

Sure they're bad allies who have no interesting in getting involved with other races but that doesn't make them bad guy material. for one thing there's the completely lack any drive or hunger for power on Historians side. They’ve had better tech then any other known race for longer then modern humans have existed but still don't push for more then their little of the galaxy.

The only thing that point towards then is the plasma weapon but something as big as this war would have to be set up by a real evil race. But we haven't met one that fits that bill yet and when we do they most likely won't even look or act evil. After all if there is someone acting in the shadows they wouldn't want to draw attention (like being a disagreeable ally would) and would be the best ally they could be. (its easier to stab someone in the back if you’re best friends after all.)

Another point I would like to bring up is who ever blow destroyed the bell should have no clue about humans or what they can bring to the table outside of what they learned in that few minutes/seconds before the first blast. (Basically sub-par tech level with normal sensors) nothing that would help either side and pose little threat to anyone in this story.

so the reason why the bell was destroyed could be one of the most important fact in this story. sure they could just be in the wrong place at the wrong time but there could be more.

Like the interesting "what if" of maybe the bell was destroyed because it could get that close in the first place? What if whoever is flying the mystery ship is also a physic race and destroyed to bell because it was a threat to them and not to the war between the bugs and loroi.

[dex drako]

The most humanity can do militarily is make themselves puff up like a blowfish and appear stronger than they actually are. Mankind might be able to make some prototypes field ready, but those advancements most likely won't make much difference in actual combat.

thats the way I see it too which is kind of the point i believe, Ariochas gone out of his wayto make man kind as a whole meaningless. it really the only way to make Alex important anyway so I don't mind really.

[Codius_Dak]

That or the Historians had a hand in the downfall of the Soia Empire and the Terrans are the last remnants of the Soia. that would give the motive for the Historians to destroy the bellarmine. and as for the Pol perhaps they are hostages.

[Voitan]

Does anyone else think that the Historians are not even a biological species but rather just an AI remnant of Soia empire. Maybe the Pol are actually the ones pulling the strings...?

Same here, the Historians as a screen for the Pol to interact with other species is a good possibility.

[dex drako]

That or the Historians had a hand in the downfall of the Soia Empire and the Terrans are the last remnants of the Soia. that would give the motive for the Historians to destroy the bellarmine. and as for the Pol perhaps they are hostages.

the Soia fell 500,000 years ago and the story doesn't change the fact that humans evolved some what naturally (said that way because I believe the soia messed with some per human before there fall from power which lead to humans in this story) on earth only some 200,000 to 300,000 years ago. its purity good odds we are not the last of the soia so while that's a good idea it doesn't fit the facts as we known them right now.