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[Razor One]

Am I alone in loving the fact that they're calling Stillstorm the "Storm-Witch"?

Couple that with Kikitik mentioning that Stillstorms defense was costly to them and it just adds to her inherent badassery right there. Not only is her enemy willing to compliment her (after a fashion) they give her a cool name too.

The way the Umiak are working with regards to valuing the Bell is pretty much standard military doctrine. If your enemy desires something, it must be important, ergo, wrest it from their grasp or seek to deny them access to it. The only time you don't follow this is when you can determine if it's a ruse or a trap.

If I recall the Insider article on the Umiak, Kikitik seems to be pushing the latter stages of middle age with the yellow shell and graying hairs, assuming the hairs gray before the shell starts to turn red with old age. Rough guess would be... 30 or 40 years old.

[icekatze]

hi hi

I dunno if "Storm-Witch" is a complement, they could just be mistaking her for a "Sand-Witch," or some other culinary construct.

From what I remember reading about the Umiak's relationship with the Loroi before the war broke out, I would have to say that they're probably very good liars. They were supposedly planning to attack the Loroi from the moment they first met, but managed to interact and trade with them for some time before they finally made their move.

[TheUnforsaken]

From what I remember reading about the Umiak's relationship with the Loroi before the war broke out, I would have to say that they're probably very good liars. They were supposedly planning to attack the Loroi from the moment they first met, but managed to interact and trade with them for some time before they finally made their move.

Its not really lying to not say 'Oh, by the way, we've built up a massive fleet to attack you as soon as we have the pretext to do so...'. They may have thought it was simply good planning to have a fleet ready without actually intending to use it, and they can hardly be blamed for taking advantage of the Loroi not doing the same.

And there does seem to be some confusion as to who actually started the shooting in the first place. Perhaps the hypothesised third party involved in the destruction of the Bell has been around much longer than originally thought...

[Ktrain]

Okay I said wth and did it myself.

http://www.techhouse.org/~osmium/tictac27.ogg

for your enjoyment. super tired typed it up with 1 edit passthrough to clean up errors.

-O

Well that just cured my hangover...

The fact that the Umiaks recognize StillStorm by title is the most interesting part of this strip.

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

From what I remember reading about the Umiak's relationship with the Loroi before the war broke out, I would have to say that they're probably very good liars. They were supposedly planning to attack the Loroi from the moment they first met, but managed to interact and trade with them for some time before they finally made their move.

The Outsider article merely states that it seemed that the Umiak had been preparing for conflict for years before hand. Another possibility is that the Umiak maintain a wartime command economy ready to mobilize at all times, even before they encountered the Loroi.

The fact that the Umiaks recognize StillStorm by title is the most interesting part of this strip.

I'm guessing they recognize the 51st, which according to Beryl is an unusually effective formation. The Umiak have probably learned that non collectivist species tend to have allot of their capability attributed to their command positions. So the Umiak have learned to keep track of the enemy leaders of certain task forces (probably by listening into Loroi communications).

Or perhaps they are simply aware that such an approach simply won't work. Asking directly will get a flat refusal to answer, probing will simply make Stillstorm kill the conversation.

What would you be more likely to do? Actually give up a highly valuable object to the enemy, or inform the enemy of why you value the object so highly? The later still leaves you with the object in question.

Unless of course the Umiak think they have something juicy to offer the Loroi in exchange for the Bell. I can't see it being safe passage, since the Loroi could blast the Bell and just boost as fast as they could out system, outrunning the Umiak heavies, escaping and denying the Umiak the object.

[bunnyboy]

I'd think the Umiak could design significantly better translators. The language actually sounds quite easy for a computer to process given it's a stack and the sounds the Umiak use should be *very* easy to parse unlike human speech.

Problem is not translator or computers. It is speed of live feed. The translator may buffer couple of seconds for waiting end of sentence, but occasionally those seconds may be critical. I think it is choice.

[Razor One]

The problem with translation is that many things can be lost even if the translation is accurate.

On the other hand, you can have a translation that can be inaccurate but delivers the spirit of the message intended.

Let's take the final stanza from Tennyson's Ulysses as an example.

Tho' much is taken, much abides; and though
We are not now that strength which in old days
Moved earth and heaven; that which we are, we are;
One equal temper of heroic hearts,
Made weak by time and fate, but strong in will
To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield.

Now, let's pick a random language to translate that into. Japanese.

Result:

カントー、はるかに取り込まれ、多くの遵守、およびかかわらず
我々は、今では強されていないが昔の
移動の天と地、そのことを我々は、我々がされます。
英雄的な心の一つと等しい温度、
、時間と運命に弱いメイドそうなるに強い
するためには、求めて、見つけるために、努力得ていない。

Backtranslating that:

Tho, is taken far more compliance, and though
We are old now but not strong
Move heaven and earth, that we can, we will.
Temperature is equal to one of heroic hearts,
, made ​​it vulnerable to a strong time and fate
For the asking, to find not given effort.

I have absolutely no knowledge of Japanese so I haven't the faintest idea how to translate Ulysses' final stanza faithfully into Japanese that would net the same effect upon the reader as it does in English. I'll grant that that is done with current day translators. Arguably future translators will be better... but how do you throw in things like cultural context?

Let's take a fictional example. Let's say that Culture A and Culture B reside near each other. Culture A is raised with an emphasis to respect those older than them, whilst Culture B has no special connotations towards the aged.

Let's say that Culture A develops two words to refer to the aged, 'Old' and 'Elder'. Old would be considered rude with reference to a person (but not necessarily to objects), whilst Elder would be considered polite and respectable.

Culture B however has no special connotations of respect towards the aged. How do you translate the respect inherent in the word elder? "Respected Old One" or "Wise Old One" might work, but is imprecise.

For instance...

"Though our elders now abide..." - Culture A
"Though our wise old ones now abide..." - "Though our respected old ones now abide..." - Culture B

All three sentences mean the same thing, but if one were to be using this in a speech or a poem, you do lose something in the translation. Cultural context, flow, emphasis.

While the clicks of the Umiak language might be easy for a computer to process (I personally doubt that), it's the translation from Umiak "clicking" to Loroi Trade that may be the significant stumbling block. The Umiak language likely has certain factors for politeness that simply don't translate well or at all because the Loroi do not favour verbal communication, nor do they see it as something polite.

There may be polite, neutral, rude, ultra rude, and ultra polite ways of saying "Hello" in Umiak that can only translate as "We find it necessary to speak to you" in trade, to say nothing of social status factors (a subordinate may politely say hello to a superior differently than a superior may politely say hello to a subordinate).

I'd say that the translator the Umiak is using is a good utility translator, one designed to "Get the message across and spare the frippery for the diplomats". Effectively, he's using the Umiak version of Google Translate (or the Loroi are, depending on who's doing the translating). The ones you'd use for diplomatic stuff in the kinds of situations where a single mistranslated word can result in war are likely to be far more sophisticated, if not passed off outright to language specialists familiar with the cultural nuances necessary for accurate translation.

[dex drako]

And there does seem to be some confusion as to who actually started the shooting in the first place. Perhaps the hypothesised third party involved in the destruction of the Bell has been around much longer than originally thought...

this is what I find most interesting about this idea, what if both sides are being played by someone in the shadows.

[fredgiblet]

I'm guessing they recognize the 51st, which according to Beryl is an unusually effective formation. The Umiak have probably learned that non collectivist species tend to have allot of their capability attributed to their command positions. So the Umiak have learned to keep track of the enemy leaders of certain task forces (probably by listening into Loroi communications).

Arioch has stated that the Tempest is the last Vortex left and that the fact that she has survived despite the glass jaw that killed the rest of the Vortex class AND that she has survived in front-line combat during that time means that the Umiak are aware of what the Tempest is and who commands her. They know Stillstorm/Tempest in particular.

What would you be more likely to do? Actually give up a highly valuable object to the enemy, or inform the enemy of why you value the object so highly? The later still leaves you with the object in question.

Why do either?

[GOULimitingFactor]

Really loving the awkwardness and ambiguity of the Umiak translation, as well as the creepy implied movement of their mouth parts. You've done a really impressive job of selling them as alien, antagonistic, and frightening.

Has anyone raised the possibility of intra-Umiak political maneuvering yet? The destruction of the Bellarmine might have been motivated by formerly-bureaucratic factional infighting taken to a new and dangerous level.

[Tash]

I don't think that's likely, really, but they aren't a hive mind, so total cohesion doesn't seem likely either.
It's possible that there are different factions who view serving the whole differently, a bit like Kzer-za and Kohr-ah if you will.

[GOULimitingFactor]

That's more what I had in mind. The impression I get is that it's vanishingly unlikely that Umiak-on-Umiak violence is involved, just that someone saw the Bellarmine as a crucial piece in their game and torched it.

Is there an Umiak Chess/Go/Shogi equivalent?

[Sprawl63]

At this point, I really don't think it was the Umiak who destroyed the Bellarmine at all. They seem more clueless about the situation then the Loroi. At this point, I'm wondering if the Barsam had something to do with this, as they had a vessel in the area. It could also be an unnamed third party. Perhaps someone wanting the war to continue as long as possible and aware that humanities industrial capacity could end the stalemate?

[Rosen_Ritter_1]

Why do either?

Well in the case of the Loroi, THEY don't quite know what happened to the Bell(presumably) and want to find out what did happen. Therefore finding out what the Umiak know COULD be useful, and might not necessarily have as much negative consequences as handing over the Bell's remains all at once. Though it's debatable if even letting the Umiak know any of that would be considered acceptable for the Loroi.


But barring the umiak's low assumed probability of negotiations succeeding (and the possibility this is all a ploy), I gotta wonder what exactly the Umiak think they can offer Stillstorm for an item she seemingly desires so heavily.

At this point, I really don't think it was the Umiak who destroyed the Bellarmine at all. They seem more clueless about the situation then the Loroi. At this point, I'm wondering if the Barsam had something to do with this, as they had a vessel in the area. It could also be an unnamed third party. Perhaps someone wanting the war to continue as long as possible and aware that humanities industrial capacity could end the stalemate?

The Barsam seem highly unlikely culprits. They might not completely like the Loroi, but letting the Umiak win (or even just prolonging the war) doesn't seem to be in their interests. Also, the Barsam seem to be the kind of *humanists* (that is to say, displaying *humanitarian* tendencies) that even if they did accidentally fire on the Bell the first time, I can't see them maliciously finishing it off like that.

And I don't think humanities low tech industry, as substantial as it is, is going to change the tides of this conflict.

[Sprawl63]

Why do either?

Well in the case of the Loroi, THEY don't quite know what happened to the Bell(presumably) and want to find out what did happen. Therefore finding out what the Umiak know COULD be useful, and might not necessarily have as much negative consequences as handing over the Bell's remains all at once. Though it's debatable if even letting the Umiak know any of that would be considered acceptable for the Loroi.


But barring the umiak's low assumed probability of negotiations succeeding (and the possibility this is all a ploy), I gotta wonder what exactly the Umiak think they can offer Stillstorm for an item she seemingly desires so heavily.

At this point, I really don't think it was the Umiak who destroyed the Bellarmine at all. They seem more clueless about the situation then the Loroi. At this point, I'm wondering if the Barsam had something to do with this, as they had a vessel in the area. It could also be an unnamed third party. Perhaps someone wanting the war to continue as long as possible and aware that humanities industrial capacity could end the stalemate?

The Barsam seem highly unlikely culprits. They might not completely like the Loroi, but letting the Umiak win (or even just prolonging the war) doesn't seem to be in their interests. Also, the Barsam seem to be the kind of *humanists* (that is to say, displaying *humanitarian* tendencies) that even if they did accidentally fire on the Bell the first time, I can't see them maliciously finishing it off like that.

And I don't think humanities low tech industry, as substantial as it is, is going to change the tides of this conflict.

I actually think it might be the Historians, as they have the most to loss and gain out of the conflict. Presumably, they are they third most powerful force in the known galaxy at this point in the story, being the most technologically advanced and independent. I wouldn't think that it would be in their interest to have an extremely powerful, imperialistic neighbor as the victor. Instead, it might be sensible to let the Umiak and the Loroi smash each other to splinters, leaving the Historians relatively unscathed and without the fear of having hungry eyes turned on them.

And I disagree about the importance of humanity. While they are of little use now, a 25 billion person workforce being injected into the Loroi's estimated 50-100 billion isn't a small thing. Arioch also stated that the Terran home solar system could produce more then the most productive Loroi Alliance system. Given 5 years or so (not much time at all for this war), the industrial boost given by Terrans could push the war in the Loroi's favor.

[Siber]

Beausabre posted a few times on the old forum about how the story seems to be structured as a murder mystery more than anything else. Who killed the Bell is likely to be of major significance down the road. I tend to agree.

At this time its my gut guess that the Historians did it, and this system is acting as a proving grounds for a technological psi jammer. Psi amps exist, so clearly some interaction with technology is possible even if the Loroi don't know how to do it. If the Historians don't trust either side and don't want a decisive victory for either side, them covertly testing a weapon to negate the Loroi main advantage would fit. The question then is if the Bell just stumbled across the historian ship by accident and got vaporized to keep the secret, or something else. Given the long odds, I'm going to say its probably something else. A Historian ship involved in a covert jammer test noticed the Bell and closed distance under cover of the proplyd to investigate it, given the intelligence value of data on a new power entering the Fray. Then when noticed they eliminated it, either to try to cover up their presence or because they know something about humanity that we don't yet. Given that the Loroi found Alex before the Bell, if they are to be believed, it seems likely that this would have worked if not for them missing Alex and him getting on the radio.

Still, sixty kilometers is quite a lot of overconfidence. Random blunder would be made more likely if there were many jammer ships strewn through the system, perhaps stationed near jump points away from either power so they can flee out of sight if anyone starts to wander their way.

[Grayhome]

Perhaps the Historians were aware of the Umiak's new innovation of telepathy masked vessels and wished to observe the results for their own purposes, without the Loroi's knowledge. I would imagine that the ability to mask a vessel's presence from Loroi farseers would be of considerable value to the Historians. Then the fool Terrans stumble into the system sticking their noses where they don't belong and hey-presto get vaporized for their trouble.

Which presents the Loroi with the very real possibility that the Historians have been holding out valuable intelligence gathering technology/techniques for who knows how long. Oh, and the fact that their ally has just blown up an ambassadorial vessel from an unknown race that bares a passing resemblance to them and is highly resistant/immune to telepathy.

Also I don't the Umiak capable of such innovative technology, even with the length of the war and the massive amounts of Loroi research subjects collected from the Union worlds they've occupied. They might have encountered another here-to unknown race and bullied them into giving them stealth technology. I know I have no evidence for this statement I'm just thinking aloud given the data available upon the Umiak being an uncreative race who basically only got off their charred out rock by stealing the tech from others, could easily be a Morat vessel armed with a few Umiak plasma weapons. Do the Umiak hand out weapons tech to their allies by the way? I'm inclined to think not given their paranoia of other races.

[osmium]

the interesting bit to me is that if the historians are to blame, why. And who is causing the far seer issues in this system. If it's the historians or a random 3rd party how did they convince the Umiak to commit a huge fleet to defend said system without being allied with them.

Just cause I think the historians are such bad allies so as to nearly be enemies my money is on the historians playing both sides and this is some sort of historian tech testbed (possibly the whole war). For instance what if the pulse cannons they gave the Loroi weren't actually copies of their pulse cannons, but instead a system designed to test out new weapons systems in combat sort of dumbed down to the Loroi's level. If they have access to the compiled combat data there could be something in there. Similarly perhaps they supplied the knowledge of armour making to the Umiak and are testing production methods, engines etc. not sure it goes quite that deep, but if the historians shot the bell, I'd expect it to have something to do with the farseer problems which leads to at least something hinky going on with the historians and the Umiak...

-O

[osmium]

Do the Umiak hand out weapons tech to their allies by the way? I'm inclined to think not given their paranoia of other races.

no. As far as I recall some of the "allied" races are given some degree of autonomy like the morat was it? They maintain their own fleets for self defense mostly I think...
There's a good chunk on this stuff in various insider articles.

-O

[Sprawl63]

Do the Umiak hand out weapons tech to their allies by the way? I'm inclined to think not given their paranoia of other races.

no. As far as I recall some of the "allied" races are given some degree of autonomy like the morat was it? They maintain their own fleets for self defense mostly I think...
There's a good chunk on this stuff in various insider articles.

-O

To some degree, yes. But the Umiak also run them dry. To be an ally of the Umiak is to be something of a slave to the greater good. The Insider says that they run them hard, but no harder then they run themselves. Brutal but fair.