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Wintermute
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Page 87

Post by Wintermute »

I absolutely love the translated Umiak speech.

dex drako
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Re: Page 87

Post by dex drako »

well the Bugs seem to be completely in the dark.

the didn't even know what the Loroi were looking at until the last group got a look at it. though I love the fact they think it was the loroi that blow it up which just shows how out of the loop they are. but I have to say I respect them for at least thinking about talking this out.

so this (at least to me) pushes the spotlight back towards some unknown third party we haven't met yet. Which also makes this story a lot more interesting then if it was just about this war if you ask me.

But it seems like times run out for the bell one way or another.

The loroi can’t hold the bell against that large of a force and they sure aren’t going to hand it over so that it. But in away this is great because this is where things should start to get really interesting.

Good job can’t wait.

ColdRain
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Re: Page 87

Post by ColdRain »

Wintermute wrote:I absolutely love the translated Umiak speech.
Indeed, it manages nicely to convey a sense of the alien, while containing enough patterns to convey it's own style.

So, assuming the Umiak are being up-front here, they didn't blow up the Bellarmine, and this group, at least, has never encountered human spaceships before. It's almost unfortunate the Historian envoy wasn't around for this conversation; it's reaction might have been informative.

Also, the fact that Kikitik-27 notes that the assault was 'costly' does show that the Umiak are at least somewhat concerned about ship losses, if perhaps only due to their military value.

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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: Page 87

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

dex drako wrote:well the Bugs seem to be completely in the dark.

the didn't even know what the Loroi were looking at until the last group got a look at it. though I love the fact they think it was the loroi that blow it up which just shows how out of the loop they are. but I have to say I respect them for at least thinking about talking this out.
Well it's not to surprising actually. The Loroi certainly couldn't see the Umiak clearly when they came out of the dust cloud. So it's not like they could either.


What's more interesting is the Umiak attitude despite being in the dark. It seems solely based on the fact that the Loroi are interested in it. Now this is of course logical, but what's more interesting is how the Umiak don't seem to even ponder WHY the Loroi might consider it important. Just that the Loroi considering it important=Umiak must get it. It's an entirely logical, yet somewhat uncreative thought process. Note how the merely inquisitive approach doesn't seem to occur to the Umiak. Namely, trying to get the Loroi to offer up information as to WHY they're so interested in the object. But I get the feeling that question isn't of much interest to the Umiak. Now that they've defined the Bell as important, everything else is now secondary to trying to acquire the Bell*. Though perhaps, with the Umiaks highly prioritized goal setting, the Umiak can't conceive of defending the Bell sight without knowing EXPLICITLY why it was so important. Under that line of thought, postulating the the Loroi might be just as confused as the Umiak would be entirely expected.

Of course I might be wrong, and the Umiak commander KlickKlick might decide that information might be a good booby prize before going in at the task force.


edit: Though it'd be amusing, given Umiak views on ship crews, if when he asked for *The Object in question*, he was also including all surviving members of the ship. since they're bassically just individual components.
ColdRain wrote: Also, the fact that Kikitik-27 notes that the assault was 'costly' does show that the Umiak are at least somewhat concerned about ship losses, if perhaps only due to their military value.
Or at least because they need these ships/missiles for an upcoming raid/assault on the Loroi defensive lines, and losing out entirely on that would be working into the Loroi advantage. (or maybe that's just how they view it, not realizing how much strain their numbers put on the enemy).

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flarecde
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Re: Page 87

Post by flarecde »

dex drako wrote:though I love the fact they think it was the loroi that blow it up which just shows how out of the loop they are.
Has there been any explicit proof the Loroi didn't blow up the Bell? I mean, they said they didn't but I'm sure they're also quite capable of lying :P. I think this is strong evidence that the Umiak didn't do it, though, for sure. Unless they're playing coy for some reason... but that line of thought gives me a headache.
Reality is nothing, perception is everything.

dex drako
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Re: Page 87

Post by dex drako »

ColdRain wrote:.

So, assuming the Umiak are being up-front here, they didn't blow up the Bellarmine, and this group, at least, has never encountered human spaceships before. It's almost unfortunate the Historian envoy wasn't around for this conversation; it's reaction might have been informative.
well maybe not it is an AI after all so there is no reason for it to have Obvious tell when it lies like an organic being would. thought I've never been one too believe the Historians are the real bad guys anyway.

nothing they've done nothing that screams evil master minds to me just Isolationist in nature. not say it can't be them I just can't see it being them that's why I go more for a complete unknown right now. after all its only the first chapter of the story we don't need to know te faces of the ture villain just yet right.

Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote: What's more interesting is the Umiak attitude despite being in the dark. It seems solely based on the fact that the Loroi are interested in it. Now this is of course logical, but what's more interesting is how the Umiak don't seem to even ponder WHY the Loroi might consider it important. Just that the Loroi considering it important=Umiak must get it. It's an entirely logical, yet somewhat uncreative thought process. Note how the merely inquisitive approach doesn't seem to occur to the Umiak. Namely, trying to get the Loroi to offer up information as to WHY they're so interested in the object. But I get the feeling that question isn't of much interest to the Umiak. Now that they've defined the Bell as important, everything else is now secondary to trying to acquire the Bell*. Though perhaps, with the Umiaks highly prioritized goal setting, the Umiak can't conceive of defending the Bell sight without knowing EXPLICITLY why it was so important. Under that line of thought, postulating the the Loroi might be just as confused as the Umiak would be entirely expected.

Of course I might be wrong, and the Umiak commander KlickKlick might decide that information might be a good booby prize before going in at the task force.
it kind of feels like two kids fighting over a new toy. lol

but you make a point about the way they think is a more realistic reason why.
flarecde wrote: Has there been any explicit proof the Loroi didn't blow up the Bell? I mean, they said they didn't but I'm sure they're also quite capable of lying :P. I think this is strong evidence that the Umiak didn't do it, though, for sure. Unless they're playing coy for some reason... but that line of thought gives me a headache.
well loroi plasma weapons are pulsed and the beam that hit the bell wasn't so we can there really isn't anything to point towards the Loroi doing it.

so that leaves us with two choices the Historians because they are the only other race known to have plasma weapons or some as of yet unknown races.

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icekatze
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Re: Page 87

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

So [Forces of the Hierarchy] is first on the stack, [The Enemy Forces] is second on the stack, [Kikitik-27 etc.] is third on the stack, and [The Storm Witch] is fourth on the stack, or maybe "abnormal" is fourth on the stack...

I think everyone involved has a good reason to be lying about destroying the Bellarmine. It didn't look like a pulsed plasma beam from our perspective, but I'm not sure if thats anything Alex would know.

Obviously, if the Loroi blew it up, they want to be on Alex's good side so they can continue to probe him for information, or even use humanity as an ill gotten weapon in the war. (should they believe his story)

The Umiak could be playing a mind game with the Loroi. They know they blew up the Bellarmine when they could have captured it, but they're pretending they want it for themselves. They might be hoping that Stillstorm will cut and run with this display, and by their claim, might make Stillstorm destroy the remains herself rather than make them waste time and effort on it.

javcs
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Re: Page 87

Post by javcs »

Most interesting.


Eh, the Bell will last a while yet, since the Loroi seem to intend to hold it as long as possible and extract as much information as possible, while the Umiak want to capture it intact.

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Trantor
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Re: Page 87

Post by Trantor »

So, "Stormwitch" it is? :D Uh, if Stillstorm is flattered? :D

Well, i think bug intel has analyzed this well, and their approach of communication is well balanced. They know there´s very probably a survivor, so if they blew up the bell, they distract from their responsibility.
Also i´m pretty sure they don´t care about the losses, even if they stress them as costly.
And, see above, they exactly know with whom they´re dealing. :D

Last but not least, we learn that this sort of communication seems to be new.

Nice reaction from Stillstorm, too. She´s clearly not a humble diplomat...


Edit: And i don´t buy their negotiating-approach. They know they outnumber exhausted SG 51 by far now. It would be easy to blow them up. But they also know that SG 51 would blow up the remains before they retreat, and that there would nothing be left the time they reach it. If i´m not wrong they are still >15 minutes (900 Solon) away. So they are buying time to set something up.
I´m very curious to see the next step. Nice suspension, Arioch! ;)
sapere aude.

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Trantor
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Re: Page 87

Post by Trantor »

icekatze wrote:I think everyone involved has a good reason to be lying about destroying the Bellarmine.
Hehe. Even if it is only for the protocol.
icekatze wrote:They might be hoping that Stillstorm will cut and run with this display, and by their claim, might make Stillstorm destroy the remains herself rather than make them waste time and effort on it.
I don´t think so. I´m pretty sure they don´t care about spending some additional shots. They´re buying time for some reason we will see soon.
sapere aude.

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TheUnforsaken
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Re: Page 87

Post by TheUnforsaken »

I wonder just how unpleasant 'direct action which is abnormal' is...

Its also interesting that whatever the Umiak were up to in addition to the original ambush doesn't take precedence over finding out what the Bell is (the sheer number of heavy units suggests, to me at least, that they had more in mind than wiping out a few task groups).
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Trantor
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Re: Page 87

Post by Trantor »

flarecde wrote:
dex drako wrote:though I love the fact they think it was the loroi that blow it up which just shows how out of the loop they are.
Has there been any explicit proof the Loroi didn't blow up the Bell? I mean, they said they didn't but I'm sure they're also quite capable of lying :P. I think this is strong evidence that the Umiak didn't do it, though, for sure. Unless they're playing coy for some reason... but that line of thought gives me a headache.
The bug just says "the enemy forces", not explicitly "loroi". That could also be the historians then, as they are part of their enemies.
sapere aude.

NOMAD
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Re: Page 87

Post by NOMAD »

Trantor wrote:So, "Stormwitch" it is? :D Uh, if Stillstorm is flattered? :D

Edit: And i don´t buy their negotiating-approach. They know they outnumber exhausted SG 51 by far now. It would be easy to blow them up. But they also know that SG 51 would blow up the remains before they retreat, and that there would nothing be left the time they reach it. If i´m not wrong they are still >15 minutes (900 Solon) away. So they are buying time to set something up.
I´m very curious to see the next step. Nice suspension, Arioch! ;)
Well this is getting more and more mysterious and interesting at the same time.

the Umiak, from the insider guide, stated that they are detailed, mindful and very efficent and probably wanted to see what the Loroi were up too, since they would, I believe, would be leaving the battle field to return to their defensive lines. now that they know what the Loroi are guarding and as you stated above, know it would be destroyed ( and be very valuable), might be trying to actually barter for the bell remains. However I agree that they are up to something and the "tactical situation" might what is to come. The loroi could still try the hide Alex, but I'm with Trantor, that the Umiak might be trying to put on a good face. Anyone thinking the Alex might speak with kilikil-27 ?

But is still too early to say what going to happen next.
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Trantor
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Re: Page 87

Post by Trantor »

NOMAD wrote:now that they know what the Loroi are guarding and as you stated above, know it would be destroyed ( and be very valuable), might be trying to actually barter for the bell remains.
Like, Loroi hostages? Aww, that´d be heavy. :(

NOMAD wrote:Anyone thinking the Alex might speak with kilikil-27 ?
I´m sure Stillstorm would not let him do that to not give away any intel.
sapere aude.

Majincarne
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Re: Page 87

Post by Majincarne »

Its direct communication with the enemy. As far as humans go in how to handle this its "Lie through your teeth".

So to narrow down the possible sinkers of the Bellarmine we need to figure out if the Umiak are likely to lie.
That and we can be sure they are not worried that giving the loroi extra time will put them in jeopardy. I'm of the mind that there are other Umiak strike groups maneuvering for a cross pattern pass post negotiations, Whatever the outcome of the talks are.

dex drako
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Re: Page 87

Post by dex drako »

the problem with the idea of them lying is it seems more like a human issue then either one of these two species would have.

1) The loroi just don't lie, telepathy makes this almost a alien concept to them.

2) form what little we know about the bugs a selfish act like lying doesn't seem to fit there social structure either. Don’t get me wrong I can see them doing it but it wouldn't seem common to me.

The point is nether species seems to be one that would be lying in the way you want them to. That’s why I don't a lot of you guys are going to be disappointed when this doesn't turn into diversion tactic at all.

Remember strike group 51 here is one of the best so the bugs aren't used to Loroi forces putting up such a hard fight. Least of all when these loroi are not fighting in normal loroi style of running battles. But instead are sitting there defending a point in space and still taking out large numbers of there ships.

This just doesn't happen.

So they're taking a chance because even though they may not care about losing ship in battle if the can get what they want with out it all the better. honestly I see this playing out very straight forwardly with the bugs say they want the ship, the loroi go "talk to the hand", engines flair, Alex says a few words, they blow the bell and leave.

Then later we get a page showing this mystery ship jump out.
NOMAD wrote:Anyone thinking the Alex might speak with kilikil-27 ?
I'm sure at some alex will talk to someone one the other side but not so sure it would happen now.

fredgiblet
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Re: Page 87

Post by fredgiblet »

+1 to the liking of Umiak speech
Rosen_Ritter_1 wrote:Note how the merely inquisitive approach doesn't seem to occur to the Umiak. Namely, trying to get the Loroi to offer up information as to WHY they're so interested in the object. But I get the feeling that question isn't of much interest to the Umiak.
Or perhaps they are simply aware that such an approach simply won't work. Asking directly will get a flat refusal to answer, probing will simply make Stillstorm kill the conversation.

osmium
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Re: Page 87

Post by osmium »

I find tictac27 a little hard to understand. I'd think the Umiak could design significantly better translators. The language actually sounds quite easy for a computer to process given it's a stack and the sounds the Umiak use should be *very* easy to parse unlike human speech. Unless there is some weird additional thing where like some pattern in the style of speech carried a lot of the meaning I don't see a computer getting confused. I suppose it could just be so alien that there really isn't a good translation for many things such that the small details basically always get lost in translation. But still this is almost as bad as good old microsoft narrator was at reading text... That aside it does help serve the interestingness factor. I think we need to make some microsoft narrator files of tictac27's little speech.

-O

von Boomslang
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Re: Page 87

Post by von Boomslang »

Damn. You weren't kidding when you said the Umlak ramble, Arioch.

osmium
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Re: Page 87

Post by osmium »

Okay I said wth and did it myself.

http://www.techhouse.org/~osmium/tictac27.ogg

for your enjoyment. super tired typed it up with 1 edit passthrough to clean up errors.

-O

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