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Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Sun Jun 10, 2018 7:32 am
by Hālian
To be continued…

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 3:31 pm
by SVlad
My title is Listel Tozet Eilis; my spoken name means "beryl".
How this phrase from page 34 was intended to sound in trade?
"Eilis" and "beryl" is the same word, isn't it?

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Thu Oct 04, 2018 5:32 pm
by Arioch
SVlad wrote:
My title is Listel Tozet Eilis; my spoken name means "beryl".
How this phrase from page 34 was intended to sound in trade?
"Eilis" and "beryl" is the same word, isn't it?
This is a translation construction for the benefit of the reader (as Alex knows what Eilis means, but the reader does not). The literal phrasing would have been something like this:
"My title is Listel Tozet Eilis. 'Eilis' is my spoken name, 'Listel' is the name of my caste, and 'Tozet' is my military rank."

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 4:02 pm
by Sweforce
Arioch wrote:
SVlad wrote:
My title is Listel Tozet Eilis; my spoken name means "beryl".
How this phrase from page 34 was intended to sound in trade?
"Eilis" and "beryl" is the same word, isn't it?
This is a translation construction for the benefit of the reader (as Alex knows what Eilis means, but the reader does not). The literal phrasing would have been something like this:
"My title is Listel Tozet Eilis. 'Eilis' is my spoken name, 'Listel' is the name of my caste, and 'Tozet' is my military rank."
This begs the question if she would respond to be called Beryl instead of Eilis if spoken to in English on an hypothetical visit to earth. Culture and personal preference do have an inpact on such things. Then again, as a telepath she already use a "translation" of her name with Eilis and as such maybe it doesn't matter. Do the Loroi even HAVE names in an telepathic sense?

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:09 pm
by Arioch
Sweforce wrote:This begs the question if she would respond to be called Beryl instead of Eilis if spoken to in English on an hypothetical visit to earth. Culture and personal preference do have an inpact on such things. Then again, as a telepath she already use a "translation" of her name with Eilis and as such maybe it doesn't matter.
Beryl is a cooperative sort, and would probably be happy to respond to pretty much any spoken name that you would choose to use. Other Loroi might prefer the Trade versions of their names, especially if they don't speak English (as they may simply not recognize the words used). But as you say, the spoken name is formal and not really internalized; only a particularly cranky Loroi would likely be offended by use of name translations.
Sweforce wrote:Do the Loroi even HAVE names in an telepathic sense?
Yes. They are somewhat abstract and not easy to translate.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2018 5:41 pm
by Werra
I always assumed that 'Beryl' was the translation from normal Trade and 'Eilis' was Loroi dialect.
Alex as narrator is really taking the liberty of fabricating other characters dialogue to include handy translations?

Why not use the same method that was used for words like 'plenipotentiary' and add a little, unobstrusive line to the bottom?

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 2:00 am
by Arioch
Werra wrote:I always assumed that 'Beryl' was the translation from normal Trade and 'Eilis' was Loroi dialect.
Alex as narrator is really taking the liberty of fabricating other characters dialogue to include handy translations?
There is a lot going on in the translated dialogue which is there for the purposes of storytelling, and which may not be easily explained as dialect. Alex's own dialogue contains contractions and other colloquial language features that don't exist in Trade; I use them to make Alex's speech sound more natural to the reader and less formal as compared to the Loroi. It's true that Alex is speaking a slightly different dialect than the Loroi, but it certainly doesn't have anything like contractions. Trade doesn't have gendered pronouns, but the translated dialogue in most cases uses the relevant gender (from Alex's point of view) or lack thereof. Exposing the quirks of literal translations of Trade can sometimes be useful as a narrative device when confusion is desirable (like Beryl's use of 'seems'), but in many cases it's an unnecessary complication. Almost every speaking character has a particular idiosyncrasy of speech which helps to differentiate the character, but which may not necessarily be easy to explain in terms of the grammar of Trade.

The narrative convention used in Outsider is that the story is being told by an older Alex after the fact; everything is through Alex's point of view as narrator, and we don't ever see anything that Alex himself did not see or hear. This includes the translated dialogue; you can think of it as Alex's recollections of the meaning of what was said, rather than a word for word literal translation of a recording.
Werra wrote:Why not use the same method that was used for words like 'plenipotentiary' and add a little, unobstrusive line to the bottom?
I suppose it's a matter of taste and convention. In my experience, the asterisk and footnote convention is used to provide optional information or explanations for words or terms or situations which the reader might or might not know; I don't think it should be used for necessary information. 'Proplyd' and 'plenipotentiary' are English words that don't necessarily require definition, but there's really no way for the average reader to know that Eilis means 'Beryl', which is important to know since it's the name that a major character is going to be referred to by, so it's not optional and should really be stated explicitly in the dialogue. I could also have added a narration bubble explaining that Eilis means 'Beryl', but that seems like an unnecessary complication, and I think it flows better to simply structure the dialogue so that it's self-explanatory.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:16 pm
by SVlad
Arioch wrote:the story is being told by an older Alex after the fact
So Alex survives at the end?

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 12:31 pm
by Krulle
That seems to be implied.

Maybe this is another "How I met your mother" story?
(Therefore Beryl obviously NOT being the mother the story is about, but maybe she becomes a nanny of some kind?)

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Mon Oct 08, 2018 3:37 pm
by GeoModder
SVlad wrote:
Arioch wrote:the story is being told by an older Alex after the fact
So Alex survives at the end?
His surrogate or simulcratum at the very least. ;)

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:08 am
by Hālian
command (v.)
option
enter
beginning
ending
forward
backward

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:19 am
by SVlad
Hālian, do you want to make Loroi localization for some OS?

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 7:38 am
by Hālian
I recall a scene in some fanfiction or another where a high-ranking loroi had busted out a physical typewriter as a form of INFOSEC, and am now wondering to myself what its keyboard (or, to be more precise, a computer keyboard, even though they've no doubt abandoned physical same ages ago) looks like. :P

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 4:55 pm
by Arioch
command, order, directive (n.): torraslin
choice, chosen (n.): ragan
enter, go into (v.): pastano
return (go or send back to previous place/condition) (v.): pedito
begin, commence, start (v.): lilade
end, conclude, finish (v.): lerromi
forward, ahead (adv.): rellapen
back (to previous place / condition) (adv.): birras
backward (in reverse order) (adv.): liinnan

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2019 10:14 pm
by Werra
Hälian wrote:I recall a scene in some fanfiction or another where a high-ranking loroi had busted out a physical typewriter as a form of INFOSEC, and am now wondering to myself what its keyboard (or, to be more precise, a computer keyboard, even though they've no doubt abandoned physical same ages ago) looks like.
Why? Nothing beats a good mechanical keyboard. Just imagine having a desk job with only a touch-screen keyboard.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 9:43 am
by SVlad
Where are trade words stressed?
For example is it Taben or Taben.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Fri Dec 13, 2019 5:50 pm
by Arioch
SVlad wrote:Where are trade words stressed?
For example is it Taben or Taben.
The stress is not varied unless there is a double-vowel or double-consonant, so both syllables should have the same emphasis. Trade is similar to Japanese in this respect.

So it sounds a little like Taben but without diminishing the second syllable.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 4:57 am
by Entity325
Arioch wrote:There are two truetype fonts for Trade characters: Loroi Block and Loroi Hand.

I'll have to get back to you on the translations. :D
Now that I've downloaded these, I need to ask real quick, what are the licensing restrictions on them?

Obviously I'm not going to do anything nefarious like claim I created or own the fonts, but as long as I don't try to misrepresent the origin, what are the restrictions on personal or commercial use?

I have an idea I think y'all might like.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Wed Feb 12, 2020 5:25 am
by Arioch
Entity325 wrote:Obviously I'm not going to do anything nefarious like claim I created or own the fonts, but as long as I don't try to misrepresent the origin, what are the restrictions on personal or commercial use?
That's pretty much it.

Re: Loroi Trade translation request general

Posted: Fri Sep 25, 2020 2:11 pm
by Hālian
Spurred on by recent medical bullshit:
X-ray (as in the wavelength of light)
X-ray (as in the machine that uses that wavelength)
X-ray (as in the picture made by that machine)
X-ray (as in the verb)