The Human Aliens as the Good Guys

[Jeremy]

I might not be making any friends with this. But I feel like, so far, we've followed the easy path of having two alien races: one that looks human, with so far cosmetic differences, and one that looks very alien.

We've followed Jardin - a very inexperienced officer - as he is made representative to the Human race by a set of unfortunate circumstances. He starts the story already slightly favoring the Loroi (for understandable, if arguable, reasons), and then being captured by said Loroi. And aside from one disturbing scene, he's generally been treated very well.

Then the current 'Shuttle Arc' happens, greatly humanizing the already human-looking aliens. Now Jardin is being armed by the Loroi, and going to fully participate in a military action with the Loroi. He's pretty much chosen a 'side'. And it was an easy choice, since they looked human and acted with several human characteristics while talking to each other. The Umiak have been shown to be much more alien in many ways, and now are boarding a shuttle (standard military action), being attackers and thus naturally making Jardin even more biased against them.

It's gonna be very hard to side with the Umiak at this point. We've seen too much of the Loroi, have been around them too long, and have connected with their human looks and mannerisms. The alien Umiak stand very little chance of being dislodged out of the 'bad guy' spot, even if later events show they're no worse - or maybe better - than the Loroi as people.

I hope its not the Umiak that destroyed the Bellarmine, at least. They've been set up as 'villains' enough.

[G. Janssen]

I might not be making any friends with this.

Let me join you. I like not making friends. My unpopular, somewhat blunt opinion is in the paragraph about the Loroi.

The Umiak are Communists. Not just ideologically, but genetically as well. Every race must be brought into the fold to serve the greater good. Individuals live only to serve the state. Being part of the Umiak's empire is to live in slavery. Umiak experiment on themselves. They do the same to Loroi. Is this evil from a communist's point of view? Hell no. Individual life doesn't count.

And then there are the Loroi. They're militaristic, imperialistic, genocidal and expansionist (Lebensraum). They consider themselves superior over all other races. They consider themselves to be the rightful heirs to the throne of the Soia (Norse gods & Siegfried saga). They have nationalized the bulk of the banks and industry, which is an anti-capitalist stance. They distrust non-Loroi. They have a single leader. Their views are very traditionalist. To them, men are people who should stay at home to make kids. In short: they share a lot of traits with the Nazis. There, I said it. They're a lot nicer than our Nazis though, because they don't fight wars of aggression and genocide people for the reasons our Nazis did. They're also a lot sexier, but they're still similar to Nazis.

So I wouldn't call the Loroi the good guys.

But I do choose the Loroi over the Umiak for 3 reasons.
1. The problems with the Umiak are in part genetic. They're bugs. Bug societies on Earth are communist as well. The problems with the Loroi are cultural even though they're engineered warriors. It's easier for Loroi society to change than it is for Umiak society.
2. Humanity can coexist with them.
3. They look good.

[Jeremy]

"The Umiak are Communists. Not just ideologically, but genetically as well. Every race must be brought into the fold to serve the greater good. Individuals live only to serve the state. Being part of the Umiak's empire is to live in slavery. Umiak experiment on themselves. They do the same to Loroi. Is this evil from a communist's point of view? Hell no. Individual life doesn't count."

That's not the flaw of communism alone, to be fair.

1. We don't know that. We haven't met the Umiak.
2. Humanity can likely coexist with the Umiak as well. We don't know. We haven't met the Umiak.
3. A point for the Umiak there. Aliens should look ALIEN.

[DevilDalek]

And kissing a slug isn't fun..

[Bamax]

"The Umiak are Communists. Not just ideologically, but genetically as well. Every race must be brought into the fold to serve the greater good. Individuals live only to serve the state. Being part of the Umiak's empire is to live in slavery. Umiak experiment on themselves. They do the same to Loroi. Is this evil from a communist's point of view? Hell no. Individual life doesn't count."

That's not the flaw of communism alone, to be fair.

1. We don't know that. We haven't met the Umiak.
2. Humanity can likely coexist with the Umiak as well. We don't know. We haven't met the Umiak.
3. A point for the Umiak there. Aliens should look ALIEN.

True... but I can honestly say as a USA citizen that living ONLY to serve the state is not an idea that was ever really pushed through my kid to teen school years.

About the only thing that really stuck with me in history class was how fortunate we were to live here and how powerful are country was.

I guess in a way.... the USA would rather persuade it's citizens to serve the interests of the state rather than command them to.

And it works well except for when it does does not.... I need not give examples. World knows lol.

[Demarquis]

I'm going to disagree... but don't worry, I won't stop being your friend.

Anyway, all the points made about the Umiak are correct, but the Loroi ain't exactly fluffy puppies. All the points made above about the Loroi are also true (militaristic, imperialistic, genocidal, etc.) but I wouldn't call them Nazi's, they are much more like Imperial Japan. In fact, this whole situation is like being caught between Nazi Germany (the Umiak), and the Japanese Empire (the Loroi), except we have the industrial and technological capacity of Mexico. This truly is a devil's dilemma.

The good guys are the Humans. There, I said it.

[avatar576]

Debate and thought provocation are always a good thing. However, I think in the question of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, I don't think there was ever meant to be much ambiguity, at least not beyond the first chapter. This isn't supposed to be Game of Thrones (and this isn't a criticism of Outsider). At the most fundamental level, it's cute blue space elves vs. ugly space bugs. Both sides have their faults, to be sure, but I think the cute blue space elves have more to redeem them than the ugly space bugs, and it's not just in looks.

One main difference between the Umiak and the Loroi is the way they treat their client races. Yes, the Loroi have committed genocide, but in the view of the Loroi, they were eliminating a smaller player who had chosen to side with the Umiak and be a thorn in the side of the Loroi while they were ostensibly claiming to be neutral. I won't argue whether or not it was justified here, it's beside the main point.
For the most part, though, the Loroi seem to cooperate reasonably well with their client races. They have a reasonable amount of autonomy and self-governance, and each contributes something to the war effort that aligns with their expertise in exchange for the Loroi doing most, if not all, of the front-line fighting. They seem to allow their client races the freedom to contribute as they are able, as long as they do something helpful. If I were a Neridi or a Barsam, I'd feel like I was getting the better end of that bargain.
The Umiak are a different story. They have a parasitic rather than a symbiotic relationship with their client races. They subjugate a race, enslave the population, extract every last molecule of natural resources, and leave the planet an environmentally devastated wasteland.
From that point of view, we'd be better off under Loroi rule than Umiak. The question that remains to be answered is, what could humanity provide the Loroi in exchange for protection against Umiak aggression, and if the answer is nothing, what would the Loroi do with us? I think at the very least we'd be safe from genocide, because their elimination of the Tithric nearly caused the Loroi Union to dissolve. The Loroi definitely can't risk that.

To the second point, where the Loroi are the good guys only because they look/act human (for the most part), I think that's basically a necessity if you're going to captivate your audience. There are a host of in-universe reasons why Humanity can't/won't ally with the Umiak. And although the Loroi could have been made to look less human than they do, Arioch wanted to write a story about blue space elves. So that's what we've got. Creator's prerogative.
From a literary perspective, the Umiak can't be the good guys because they're just ugly bugs. We, as readers, simply can't relate to them. We have nothing in common with them. Line up five non-modified Umiak and they'll all look exactly the same to us. And who, as a reader, wants to keep track of quintuplets named Kikkittik, Kikitik, Kittikkikk, Kikkitikit, and Kitikittik (and the shoe-larva, Kit-Kat...do Umiak even wear shoes?)? Yes, it exposes some prejudice on our part, but the fact is, characters are the heart and soul of any good story. If you can't relate to them, you can't care about them. If you don't care about them, you stop reading about them.
Look at how everyone reacted to Cloud's death. We loved Cloud, and she never, even once, spoke out loud. Why? Cloud represented youth and innocence. We recognized from her rank and appearance that she was young (as a Soroin Paset, I have to guess she was no more than 10 or 11 years old). Her life and her military career had barely begun. Her death was unfair and untimely.
Fireblade's another example. She, too, never speaks (except through others), and even though she's got a severe case of Resting Bitch Face (it's a real thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resting_bitch_face), we love her, too. She has a backstory that makes you empathize with her, despite her rough interrogation of Alex and her rough "handling" of him in the lift (the former is forgivable; she was under orders. The latter I really just find amusing). You just know all will be right with the galaxy when that one page is finally released where she shows us a truly genuine smile.
That the Loroi are human-like in appearance means we can read their emotions and feel what they feel. I still can't look at Cloud's face as she's leaving the vestibule without my heart sinking into my stomach. I look at Fireblade's face as she's dragging Alex off the bridge and wonder if that's genuine concern or even fear for Alex's safety in those eyes. These things draw us emotionally into the story, make us really care about the characters and make us want to keep reading.
Would an Umiak analog to Cloud or Fireblade elicit the same response? Methinks not at all. "Oh, look, they killed off one of the bug-things. Which one was it? Kittikkikk or Kitikittik? Who knows? Who cares? They're all the same." Would we be able to tell a happy Umiak from a sad one? Doubtful. "What is it doing? Laughing or coughing? Who knows? Who cares? They all look the same..." There's just no way to get involved or feel a connection with them.

[Keklas Rekobah]

From where I sit, this looks like a choice between the "Communist Bug-People" and the "Nationalist Space Elves" -- slavery versus snobbery.

[raistlin34]

I'm going to disagree... but don't worry, I won't stop being your friend.

Anyway, all the points made about the Umiak are correct, but the Loroi ain't exactly fluffy puppies. All the points made above about the Loroi are also true (militaristic, imperialistic, genocidal, etc.) but I wouldn't call them Nazi's, they are much more like Imperial Japan. In fact, this whole situation is like being caught between Nazi Germany (the Umiak), and the Japanese Empire (the Loroi), except we have the industrial and technological capacity of Mexico. This truly is a devil's dilemma.

The good guys are the Humans. There, I said it.

Imperial Japan was way worse than Nazi German, and that´s saying something.

[Demarquis]

"Imperial Japan was way worse than Nazi German, and that´s saying something."

Beyond a certain point, relative estimations of "Badness" lose any real meaning. You wouldn't want be be living under either one of them, is the point.

"However, I think in the question of who are the good guys and who are the bad guys, I don't think there was ever meant to be much ambiguity, at least not beyond the first chapter. "

From a narrative, "Doyalist" sense, you appear to be correct. But from an in-story, "Watsonian" sense, Humanity still have to make a choice (probably via Alex, unless one of the other scout ships also made contact). Since they don't know that they are simply characters in a drama, they will have to decide using the sort of criteria we might use in their place. So discussions of which way Humanity should decide to go aren't a waste of time.

[Alex]: Earth Control, I recommend we ally with the Loroi.

[Earth]: Why is that?

[Alex]: Dude, they're Hawt!

[Earth]: ?

[Krulle]

Then the current 'Shuttle Arc' happens, greatly humanizing the already human-looking aliens. Now Jardin is being armed by the Loroi, and going to fully participate in a military action with the Loroi. He's pretty much chosen a 'side'. And it was an easy choice, since they looked human and acted with several human characteristics while talking to each other. The Umiak have been shown to be much more alien in many ways, and now are boarding a shuttle (standard military action), being attackers and thus naturally making Jardin even more biased against them.

Stockholm Syndrome... Anyone else thinking of that?


Regarding alienness of Aliens...
In "Old Man's War", this point is discussed when the "Old Farts" get their courses for the Colonial Union's military service.
Images are shown of different alien races, and the recruits have to select sides in theoretical wars of the races.
One example is between an aquatic race, which looks horrible and unpleasant to us, and a land-living race, which look appealing to us (IIRC, cute fur, making them look pet-like).

Result: choose the aquatic side. The land-dwellers are hunters, and don't mind eating other sentient beings. Plus they need the same living area as Humans do (dry land).
We can co-exist on one planet with the aquatic race, without conflict, and also without long-term conflict should the populations on the colonies rise to a degree we get squabbles over ressources like habitable areas (which in Scalzi's universe is a prime rarity - until some Humans schemed to change that)...

Choosing a side has imminent short-term repercussions, but might have different long-term repercussions which may not be obvious yet.

[Jeremy]

I won't argue whether or not it was justified here, it's beside the main point.

It's not beside the point at all, and no, it's not justified.

The Umiak are a different story. They have a parasitic rather than a symbiotic relationship with their client races. They subjugate a race, enslave the population, extract every last molecule of natural resources, and leave the planet an environmentally devastated wasteland.

I haven't read that in the story so far. And we haven't seen it. Still not as bad as genocide.

From a literary perspective, the Umiak can't be the good guys because they're just ugly bugs. We, as readers, simply can't relate to them. We have nothing in common with them. Line up five non-modified Umiak and they'll all look exactly the same to us. And who, as a reader, wants to keep track of quintuplets named Kikkittik, Kikitik, Kittikkikk, Kikkitikit, and Kitikittik (and the shoe-larva, Kit-Kat...do Umiak even wear shoes?)? Yes, it exposes some prejudice on our part, but the fact is, characters are the heart and soul of any good story. If you can't relate to them, you can't care about them. If you don't care about them, you stop reading about them.

That's a biased POV at best. I have seen stories in which bug-like people are made to be extremely sympathetic. District 9, for instance, is an excellent example.

Look at how everyone reacted to Cloud's death. We loved Cloud, and she never, even once, spoke out loud.

Everyone? I know I didn't care much. As you said, she never even spoke. She was a bit character, at best. I had to go back and check who Cloud was when I heard she was dead. That's how irrelevant she felt to me.

Say 'I', not 'Everyone'. Don't assume 'everyone' agrees with you. That's awfully presumptuous.

There's just no way to get involved or feel a connection with them.

I could. Again, you're presuming a lot. You are just being overall biased here.

[Demarquis]

I didn't know who she was until she handed Alex the comb. Then I had to go back over the story and figure it out: "Oh! The shoe girl!"

[avatar576]

It's not beside the point at all, and no, it's not justified.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. I will leave the debate for those threads dedicated to the topic, so as not to hijack this one. I'll only say this: the Loroi have committed genocide. The Umiak are attempting the same against the Loroi. Is actual genocide worse than attempted genocide or a genocide in progress? I say no.

But let's suppose the Umiak did turn out to be the lesser of two evils. I think it would still make a very interesting story to explore what would happen if Humanity chose the wrong side (whether because of inaccurate or incomplete information, or "they look like us" bias). However, I just don't think that will turn out to be the case. As Alex narrates on page 2: "In short, Earth needed heroes. That's where I came in." If Alex had chosen the "wrong" side, he wouldn't exactly be remembered as a hero for getting Earth enslaved or wiped out.

I haven't read that in the story so far. And we haven't seen it. Still not as bad as genocide.

It's in the Insider pages, not the comic itself as yet:

The Umiak seem to have a pragmatic view toward their alien client states, in the sense that each relationship appears to be unique, based on the needs of the moment; some clients are virtually enslaved, while others retain near-full autonomy and even their own military fleets. The one common theme among them is that the Umiak impose oppressively burdensome taxation in the form of resource extraction or production quotas that are at the extreme limit of what is physically possible to produce, and seemingly without regard to environmental or social impact.

The Umiak have a “use and discard” mentality. They seem unconcerned about pollution or destruction of environment, perhaps because they do not themselves have to live on the majority of the heavy-gravity planets they control. Few outsiders are allowed into those low-G planets that the Umiak have designated for their own habitation. Though it is rumored that the Umiak home planet has become a nightmarish wasteland, some suggest that the Umiak may now take more care with their own worlds, and leave the ruination to their subjects.

That's a biased POV at best. I have seen stories in which bug-like people are made to be extremely sympathetic. District 9, for instance, is an excellent example.

Fair, but maybe instead I should clarify my use of "good guys." Perhaps instead I should say "the ones we're intended to be rooting for." Which is the Loroi, and I don't think that will change.

Everyone? I know I didn't care much. As you said, she never even spoke. She was a bit character, at best. I had to go back and check who Cloud was when I heard she was dead. That's how irrelevant she felt to me.

Fine. Everyone "Many or most of those who have posted something about Cloud's death..." Better? When I first read the comic, I'm sure I had to go back to where I thought I'd seen her before as well, and only then did I make the connection that Shoe-girl and Cloud were one and the same. Still, I found her to be a sympathetic character because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time and paid for it with her life.

Say 'I', not 'Everyone'. Don't assume 'everyone' agrees with you. That's awfully presumptuous.

I'll phrase my posts as I see fit, within the rules, thanks very much.

[Jeremy]

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine.

That's true. Although I'd like to hear how you think genocide IS justified. Because you are implying it by, you know, disagreeing.

As Alex narrates on page 2: "In short, Earth needed heroes. That's where I came in." If Alex had chosen the "wrong" side, he wouldn't exactly be remembered as a hero for getting Earth enslaved or wiped out.

To begin, Alex is clearly talking from a point in the future - if these are memoirs, probably many years in the future - and I think he's using the word 'hero' sarcastically. Odds are he sees his younger self as at the very least naive, possible a bit full of himself. Unless he is very narcissistic, older Alex is probably being a bit sardonic.

But putting that aside, we have no way at this point of knowing the choice he ultimately made. Besides, when one of the side pretty much has you under custody, you can't say you made a choice. Thus far, Alex has had little agency in what's going on. He doesn't have enough information to make an informed choice at this point.

Fair, but maybe instead I should clarify my use of "good guys." Perhaps instead I should say "the ones we're intended to be rooting for." Which is the Loroi, and I don't think that will change

And yet many stories, movies OR books, have flipped the script, with the Hero finding out his side was, if not always bad, at least no better than the other side. Very common theme in war stories. And this IS a long war. Both sides have committed atrocities at this point.

Still, I found her to be a sympathetic character because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time and paid for it with her life.

Since she was on a fleet flagship, she was pretty much always onboard a prime target.

I'll phrase my posts as I see fit, within the rules, thanks very much.

Good. As will I.

[avatar576]

That's true. Although I'd like to hear how you think genocide IS justified. Because you are implying it by, you know, disagreeing.

I can only think of one situation, and it's the one the Loroi are presently in. When a race is bent on eliminating you as a species come hell or high water*, what are your options? Fight to a stalemate for all eternity (not a sustainable strategy), surrender and let them kill you (not preferable), or wipe them out before they wipe you out. In the case of the Loroi's genocide of the Tithric, you'd have to look at the possible outcomes if they hadn't taken that route. Not really enough info to say at this point, but surely there will be those who argue that if they hadn't, then the Loroi would already have lost the war. It's one of those "we'll never know" things.

To begin, Alex is clearly talking from a point in the future - if these are memoirs, probably many years in the future - and I think he's using the word 'hero' sarcastically. Odds are he sees his younger self as at the very least naive, possible a bit full of himself. Unless he is very narcissistic, older Alex is probably being a bit sardonic.

Certainly possible.

But putting that aside, we have no way at this point of knowing the choice he ultimately made. Besides, when one of the side pretty much has you under custody, you can't say you made a choice. Thus far, Alex has had little agency in what's going on. He doesn't have enough information to make an informed choice at this point.

I agree with that more than this:

He's pretty much chosen a 'side'. And it was an easy choice, since they looked human and acted with several human characteristics while talking to each other.

And yet many stories, movies OR books, have flipped the script, with the Hero finding out his side was, if not always bad, at least no better than the other side. Very common theme in war stories.

True. But I'm merely predicting that this will be not one of those stories.

And this IS a long war. Both sides have committed atrocities at this point.

Also true. But I've never heard of a war where at least one side didn't commit atrocities. And in this case, both sides have or are committing genocide which, I think we can agree, is the worst atrocity.

Since she was on a fleet flagship, she was pretty much always onboard a prime target.

That goes for anyone fighting on the front lines. But there are not very many potential situations there where Cloud would have been ordered to kill herself, much less have to stew over it for what I believe must have been at least several hours**. You could argue that just by becoming a warrior she was sealing her own fate, but I doubt she believed it would happen so soon. According to Arioch, she was only about 10 years old. Not a child, but roughly equivalent in "mental age" or maturity to Alex, I think.

*Source:

After a few years of unsuccessful occupation, the Umiak concluded that pacification of the Loroi was impossible, and simply began extermination of the captive Loroi populations. Of the estimated 50 million civilian Loroi that had been trapped on Seren when it was lost to the Umiak six years earlier, fewer than 600,000 still remained alive on the planet when it was recaptured in 2145. The story was the same on every recaptured Loroi colony.

**I believe that Cloud was told what she must do somewhere between pages 144 and 159. On page 159 we see Tempo apparently speaking to Beryl via sanzai, and she looks rather serious. That's where I now believe Tempo was ordering Beryl to have a pistol ready in case Cloud faltered. And it's very shortly after that, that Cloud gives Alex her comb.

[gaerzi]

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. I will leave the debate for those threads dedicated to the topic, so as not to hijack this one. I'll only say this: the Loroi have committed genocide. The Umiak are attempting the same against the Loroi. Is actual genocide worse than attempted genocide or a genocide in progress? I say no.

There's no such thing as "attempted genocide" or "genocide in progress", they're both just genocides.

[Demarquis]

Whether the atrocities are justifiable from some abstract ethical perspective is somewhat cold comfort to the parties against whom the atrocities were practiced. Humanity has to take that into account. We don't want to do something that will justify either side deciding they have to get rid of us.

[Krulle]

Whoever gets access to our historical records might decide they need to prune us anyway.

(WWII, the continuous and repeated atrocities against Jews everywhere, Myanmar, Horoshima&Nagasaki, China/Uyghur, Holodomir, ...)
The Insider describes similar activities within Loroi-societies.
But it will show that our leaders are able to make horrible calculations about ourselves.
And this is a reason why Humans will never be "the Good Guys".

[Demarquis]

"The Better Guys"?