Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

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Bamax
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Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Bamax »

If we are aware of how dangerous unlimited constant acceleration could be, surely designers of such capable vessels would be as well.

While such an idea is fantasy IRL, it does confer obvious scif advantages like:

1. 1g travel to anywhere. Refueling? No longer necessary.

2. With sufficient thrust you can ship large payloads more efficiently. Basically you could totally end the maritime sea shipping industry, replacing it with air to orbit and powered thrust reentry shipping instead.

3. Obviously for that to work the exhaust, if there is any, must not leave cancer causing radiation behind, or else have no exhaust at all.


How To Prevent WMD: Two ways are kind of obvious.

1. Limit acceleration time by design. Sure the engine COULD accelerate forever.... but it has an inbuilt timer that will shut it off eventually. Kind of like how automobiles have governors that will automatically reduce speed if you hit maximum (100-120 mph).

2. If someone attempts to tamper with the timer the engine will be ejected from the ship and an inbuilt bomb near the engine will detonate. Destroying both the engine and the tamperer.

3. Only military or special science vessels would have true unlimited acceleration. As whoever ran them would have to be trusted.

Other points: Constant acceleration is NOT a panacea. At near light speed I read that radiation blue shifts into the X-ray range and will kill or burn up the ship over time anyway. Also at such high speed even dust particles in space are like TNT to the hull hitting it.

Also the Oort cloud is said to have some objects of likely asteroidal ice that are mountain size. They are scattered across vast distances (about 2 LY) but you would have difficulty dodging at that speed. Oort clouds are like the solar system's own whipple shield, a good chance every solar system has one too.

And here is a joke:

Image

I think space dust, micrometeoroids and the like are one of those things that you either assume that your protagonists can deal with using available technology, or you assume that they luck out and don't get clobbered by a rock that's big enough to kill them. Or a mixture of the two - assume they can deal with dust particles and small rocks (and throw in an explanation of why if you like) but then assume they miss the big rocks.

Is this entirely satisfactory? Probably not if you're looking to create a very detailed and plausible setting, but it's a useful narrative convenience because 'death by space rock' is a really lame way to kill off a character.

"So what exactly did happen to the enemy flagship, Captain?"
"Uh - we picked up a short duration, high intensity radiation source on the edge of the Oort cloud, Admiral. As far as we can tell, they hit a magnitude eleven object on the way in. Feel a bit sorry for the blighters to tell the truth."
"At least it was quick."
"Aye, sir."


-From KSK

Krulle
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Krulle »

Not much to add, as the assumptions are all ... assumptions.

Don't know how constant acceleration engines would "eliminate" refueling or maritime transports.
We use maritime transport because of fuel/cost efficiency.

Lifting against Earth attraction surely will need massive amounts of fuel.
And ships use constant acceleration, because they are working against a constant friction force, which decelerates.


My main information I want to interject for the topic of unlimited constant acceleration:

Revelation Space is a Sci Fi space opera without FTL, and gigantic skyscrapers which accelerate constantly with 1g for half the trip, and decelerate with 1g for the second half of the trip between star systems.
Author Alastair Reynolds (studied Physics and Astronomy) once worked for the European Space Agency, and does believe in the universal speed limit of light speed.

Thus his stories skip forward and backwards in absolute time, to make the flow of story of his different protagonists appear to mesh with each other correctly.

His "lighthugger"s use "ice shields" as radiation shields, and protection against micrometeroids.

And he does describe evasion manoeuvres at relativistic speeds, and how crippling they are for the crew.

And he does use the "space pebble" trick once to get rid of a space pirate, which omitted the ice shield to have more power for acceleration of his ship. (one of the weaker parts of this series, the weakest being information can be sent back in time - if you know how to listen to it).


Edit: a much lighter read is House of Suns, where a group of traders travels around the galaxy, to collect information, trade, visit different Human societies, and they meet once they flew around on the other side again, to update each other's maps, informations, trade routes, and decisions on "house policies".
Also without FTL. But less focues on the technology sides.

Haven't read the author for a while, a nd found out now, he has a new series.
Got to order that. :)
[/edit]
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Bamax
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Bamax »

Krulle wrote:
Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:08 pm
Not much to add, as the assumptions are all ... assumptions.

Don't know how constant acceleration engines would "eliminate" refueling or maritime transports.
We use maritime transport because of fuel/cost efficiency.

Lifting against Earth attraction surely will need massive amounts of fuel.
And ships use constant acceleration, because they are working against a constant friction force, which decelerates.


My main information I want to interject for the topic of unlimited constant acceleration:

Revelation Space is a Sci Fi space opera without FTL, and gigantic skyscrapers which accelerate constantly with 1g for half the trip, and decelerate with 1g for the second half of the trip between star systems.
Author Alastair Reynolds (studied Physics and Astronomy) once worked for the European Space Agency, and does believe in the universal speed limit of light speed.

Thus his stories skip forward and backwards in absolute time, to make the flow of story of his different protagonists appear to mesh with each other correctly.

His "lighthugger"s use "ice shields" as radiation shields, and protection against micrometeroids.

And he does describe evasion manoeuvres at relativistic speeds, and how crippling they are for the crew.

And he does use the "space pebble" trick once to get rid of a space pirate, which omitted the ice shield to have more power for acceleration of his ship. (one of the weaker parts of this series, the weakest being information can be sent back in time - if you know how to listen to it).


Edit: a much lighter read is House of Suns, where a group of traders travels around the galaxy, to collect information, trade, visit different Human societies, and they meet once they flew around on the other side again, to update each other's maps, informations, trade routes, and decisions on "house policies".
Also without FTL. But less focues on the technology sides.

Haven't read the author for a while, a nd found out now, he has a new series.
Got to order that. :)
[/edit]

Correction: I now remember what I wrote wrongly. Radiation does not become more lethal at lighthugger speed.... rather the stray hydtogen atoms hitting the hull will give lethal radiation if they penetrate through it fully.
https://www.nbcnews.com/id/wbna35770625


Nonetheless, since most elements are weakly diamagnetic, an uber manetic field COULD deflect the hydrogen atoms.

A space rock? A lot harder if at all.

Loroi could do it. Since if you can block focused bigh sublight pladma beams then it follows that you could shrug off stray hydrogen at lighthugger speed.

Krulle
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Krulle »

You can push, if you know where your mind needs to push.
But it's hard to find information of where an atommis which needs to be pushed aside.
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Mk_C
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Mk_C »

Bamax wrote:
Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:05 pm
How To Prevent WMD: Two ways are kind of obvious.
I always wondered why this problem is very rarely solved by making continuous intense acceleration and interstellar navigation not very accurate.

Krulle
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Krulle »

Well, such elements are well understood, and thus the navigation would be very accurate and well calculatable.
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charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

Dan Wyatt
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Dan Wyatt »

For Astronavigation, currently, Pulsar Navigation Systems are being studied, hope that it'll be more efficient within 20-30 years.

kfcroc18
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by kfcroc18 »

This whole thing is only a problem thanks to laypeople. think about it you're making a Sci-fi movie, show, comic, or anything. And you want to show a starship in space with engines on accelerating up to speed, when it gets to speed it turns its engines off so, it can drift off. You know friction does not exist in space, so the ship is still going forward. However, every other person will ask you, "Hay why did the ship stop dead in space?" You try to inform them that the ship is not, but it does not stop the flood of questions that ask the same thing. The only thing that stops the flood is to show the ship's engines always being on.

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Cthulhu
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Cthulhu »

kfcroc18 wrote:
Tue Aug 17, 2021 6:55 pm
This whole thing is only a problem thanks to laypeople. think about it you're making a Sci-fi movie, show, comic, or anything. And you want to show a starship in space with engines on accelerating up to speed, when it gets to speed it turns its engines off so, it can drift off. You know friction does not exist in space, so the ship is still going forward. However, every other person will ask you, "Hay why did the ship stop dead in space?" You try to inform them that the ship is not, but it does not stop the flood of questions that ask the same thing. The only thing that stops the flood is to show the ship's engines always being on.
1. While friction does not exist in real-space, the FTL drives might need to be constantly online in order to maintain said trickery. As soon as they are offline, the ship will drop out of warp/hyperspace/whatever.
2. Even though a ship will coast with the speed it has build up, it may need to accelerate even further. Like when trying to get away from the big bad villain or the wacky space anomaly of the week.

Demarquis
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Demarquis »

"If we are aware of how dangerous unlimited constant acceleration could be, surely designers of such capable vessels would be as well."

Ok, I guess I got to ask: What are the dangers of unlimited constant acceleration? And what made you think of this issue in the first place?

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Keklas Rekobah
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

Demarquis wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:05 am
... What are the dangers of unlimited constant acceleration? ...
Here is one idea: Deadfall Ordnance.

Basically, send an iron-nickel asteroid on a vector toward a black hole.  Just before it reaches the accretion disk, "jump" it back to its original orbit on the same vector toward the black hole.  Do this repeatedly until the asteroid's velocity reaches some significant fraction of c.  Then "jump" the asteroid to a place where its vector will intersect an enemy planet.  Before the inhabitants of that planet can react to (or maybe even detect) the asteroid, it impacts the enemy planet with the equivalent of several teratons of TNT, making the Chicxulub event seem like a mere drop in the ocean by comparison.  The enemy planet is shattered, all of its inhabitants are instantly vaporized, and a new asteroid belt is formed.
“Qua is the sine qua non of sine qua non qua sine qua non.” -- Attributed to many

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Keklas Rekobah
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

Another problem would be relativistic time-dilation.  As a vessel's constant acceleration increases its velocity to a significant fraction of c, time on board slows down.  Theoretically, on-board time could slow down enough for the crew to experience one second of ship-board time while billions of years pass in the rest of the universe.  By the time the vessel could be slowed enough to 'synchronize' on-board and universal time, the vessel could have traversed the entire universe ... or what is left of it!

This is because all matter in the universe -- including black holes -- is (theoretically) doomed to decay into a dim haze of elementary particles (perhaps even virtual quantum particles), leaving behind only an infinite and empty void where the only matter in existence is the vessel and its contents.
“Qua is the sine qua non of sine qua non qua sine qua non.” -- Attributed to many

gaerzi
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by gaerzi »

Keklas Rekobah wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:15 am
Another problem would be relativistic time-dilation. As a vessel's constant acceleration increases its velocity to a significant fraction of c, time on board slows down.
Heck, if your constant acceleration is indeed unlimited, you will eventually not just reach a significant fraction of c. You will reach it, and then as you keep constantly accelerating, exceed it. I mean, it's unlimited, right?

How you reconcile this with relativity is an exercise left to the writer. It probably involves a lot of unobtainium, though.

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Keklas Rekobah
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

gaerzi wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:54 am
Keklas Rekobah wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 2:15 am
Another problem would be relativistic time-dilation. As a vessel's constant acceleration increases its velocity to a significant fraction of c, time on board slows down.
Heck, if your constant acceleration is indeed unlimited, you will eventually not just reach a significant fraction of c. You will reach it, and then as you keep constantly accelerating, exceed it. I mean, it's unlimited, right?
Wrong.  A velocity of c can never be attained -- not in the real universe, anyway.
gaerzi wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 11:54 am
How you reconcile this with relativity is an exercise left to the writer. It probably involves a lot of unobtainium, though.
Of course.  Relativity / Causality / FTL -- choose any two.  The real universe has "chosen" relativity and causality as two of its fundamental principles (those which cannot be violated).  Matt Buckley gives a concise explanation  HERE .  For much more detailed explanations, try these links:

Atomic Rockets FTL entry
http://www.projectrho.com/public_html/r ... rlight.php

University of California at Riverside
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physics/R ... t/FTL.html

Negative Energy and FTL Travel
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/cienc ... energy.htm

Enjoy!

:D
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by SVlad »

Uh, just limit ftl engine to consume energy equal to potential energy delta of moved projectile. And now you acceleration is limited by your energy source. So you need to spend as much energy, as accelerating your projectile with conventional methods.
If it's not enough, limit it also with kinetic energy of target. Then, if you still have enough energy to do this RKKV trick, you can just annihilate your enemy with direct application of said energy.
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Keklas Rekobah
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

Acceleration is limited by the mass of the object and the force used to accelerate it -- this is another fundamental property of our universe, expressed as F=ma.

This also presents a conundrum: To accelerate a rocket in free space, the rocket must generate its own thrust; to generate its own thrust, it must carry its own fuel.  More fuel means more acceleration.  However, more fuel also means more mass, which needs more fuel for acceleration, which induces more mass, which needs more fuel ... et cetera.
“Qua is the sine qua non of sine qua non qua sine qua non.” -- Attributed to many

gaerzi
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by gaerzi »

Keklas Rekobah wrote:
Fri Sep 10, 2021 1:30 pm
Wrong.  A velocity of c can never be attained -- not in the real universe, anyway.
Which was my point in the first place. Unlimited constant acceleration is not possible. If you decide that it is possible in some fictional universe you're writing, then there's no reason why an unlimited constant acceleration wouldn't end up reaching c eventually.

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Keklas Rekobah
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by Keklas Rekobah »

I am not trying to put too fine of a point on this, but unlimited acceleration is theoretically possible in the real universe.  While a vessel could never achieve 100% of lightspeed, it is theoretically possible to keep "adding nines" indefinitely to the ship's velocity, accelerating from 0.9c, through 0.999c, through 0.999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999...c, and so forth.

One oddity about lightspeed: To an outside observer, a photon would take all of eternity to transit the entire breadth of the universe; but a massless observer riding on the photon would perceive the trip to happen instantaneously.

This assumes, of course, that the first observer was capable of watching the photon for all eternity, and that the second observer was capable of riding on a single photon.
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inxsi
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by inxsi »

Unlimited acceleration is possible in the real-world - maybe constantly gaining speed is not. Earth has been accelerating around the sun for a long time after all :geek:

gaerzi
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Re: Solving The Constant Acceleration Problem In Scifi

Post by gaerzi »

Well, I interpreted "constant acceleration" to mean that the acceleration vector is constant. Unchanging. If you change the acceleration vector along the way, it may still be unlimited and perpetual acceleration, but I don't consider it to be constant acceleration.

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