Human Superiority (again)

[Cthulhu]

Correcting what? You have no data what humans of 2160 can produce and, post importantly, lift into orbit.

However, let's assume that they, for a slightly more realistic scenario, can:
1. Use futuristic pykrete to form the Orions in space by harvesting comets. This way, the large slabs of reinforced ice can be accelerated even without suspension systems by simply ablating their outer layers and there's no need to lift heavy pusher plates into orbit.
2. Devote every effort into manufacturing nukes and the other components. Since those are also comparatively light, the bottleneck of lifting items up is negated (and manage to create enough of them).
3. Use special ships to tow and hold them in the jump zone. (and there are enough ships)
4. Humans get incredibly lucky and the Umiak give them enough time for all of this to succeed (but it's highly unlikely)

This swarm of Orions is then stationed in 82 Eridani (Esperanza) to defend it against the Umiak. Now a couple of their scouts jump into the system, and they are destroyed quickly enough. However, the Hiearachy may think that those misjumped and send in new ones. How high are the chances that not a single one escapes, ever? Repeated losses will alert the Umiak, since they would suspect that it's the Loroi trying to outflank them, and they will send new ones, in bigger numbers.

If even a single one manages to escape, then the Umiak will accept the apparent declaration of war from a primitive species and send in a fleet, which:
1. May make a shorter or longer jump to evade the swarm, then destroy it with kinetics and torpedoes from afar.
2. Find or/and create a detour, avoiding the system altogether.
3. Get really angry and send an Ultraheavy or three, which will simply laugh at those pinpricks.

You can use that as a basis for a fanfic or whatever, but the chances of that actually (in-universe) happening are basically nil. Creating enough Orions or those things actually being effective against the more advanced Umiak is not realistic at all.
Also, I'm out, since this whole thread is no longer interesting. Your Orion zealotry has a very small amusement potential, despite being somewhat funny due to sheer stubbornness. Next time, make a separate thread with proper formatting.

[Krulle]

I understand the prohibition of hot-linking, but sites that are ripping their content already?


LOLNein indeed. They now also have a DDOS protection. Previously they explicitly allowed hot-linking (better than stolen content and removal of credits they were fighting with).

I think It's the side effect of their DDOS protection.
It works, if you link to the image directly:

SpoilerShow

Not for me. I only get an "Image" text.
(also, I did this in my spoiler)

It may be the image is cached in your browser and thus works.
Many hotlinking protections also have this side effect, that the hot-linker can see the image (as the "code" is linked to his PC/cookie/IPaddress, and thus not linkable to other viewers).

But let's end this topic here, it's offtopic anyway.
[hr]
[hr]

I dont care about convincing, its correcting.
Its also amusing, many people on these forums without researching/commenting, I am by no means always right, but I do try to check things out if someone says I am wrong.

Only Orions with humans(organics) on them needs pistons, in reality you can have over 1000g orions using iron/steel and dont care about destroying the drive plate. They also have better turn rates because the bombs can be exploded off side to a further degree without damaging/destroying the pistons.

They are also moving significantly faster, the defending fleet only gets to shoot ~1/3rd the weapons before detonation range.

Its really impossible to estimate hit rates for PD systems vs Torpedoes(evasion)... If we assume 50% hit rates vs normal Umiak/Loroi torpedoes by PD systems and 100% hit rate vs Orions, Orions still have better survival...
Can PD punch though a drive plate or do they need main guns?
What if it takes 3 PD hits on average to kill an Orion or a main gun hit?
This would mean Orions are better unless Umiak/Loroi torpedoes have a 11% or less hit rate from PD systems.

Its impossible to work out which is really better so I just assume they are even.


Orions don't need inertia dampeners, there not manned they are Torpedoes.
Modern anti tank artillery shells which deploy tank seeking warheads above a battlefield have electronics and sensors that experience far higher g forces when fired, 5000g+.

1000g is not even a technical limitation to modern humans.

As someone working with high-stress materials, I can tell you there's a tremendous difference between "5k g during moment of firing", or semi-continuous 50g explosions and quarter-seconds without acceleration. and while the material is heating up from the many explosions.

And that leaves aside, that the handling of explosive bombs which will be shaken all the time when omitting dampers, will require hardened bombs, which will be heavier, and contain less explosive force per weight, than a system which dampens the explosive blasts.


Further still, throwing a bomb off the side will likely cause the torpedo to rotate uncontrollably, and get many damages from blast heat, instead of purely accelerating it.
Also, how will you stop the created rotation again? Another bomb to the other side?


Yes, with all you assumption, it _may_ work well.
(and that is assuming that all the splinters of the explosions will not damage any further Orions in the part of space you want to use to fly further defensive Orions to their stations / let the Orions keep their position when the solar system continues its rotation - the number of Orions you seem to contemplate may well lead to a beautiful series of explosions removing a substantial part of the Orion mines/torpedos - which you will need to replenish in a timely manner too.)
But I don't think so.
There are more reasons why this technology is not considered feasibly anymore, not even for interplanetary travels, or just to lift collected materials off the moon...

I thank you for exchanging your idea with us, but you ever introducing more and more assumptions just leads to the question whether the number of assumptions alone will lead to the system being unworkable.

[Cthulhu]

I thank you for exchanging your idea with us, but you ever introducing more and more assumptions just leads to the question whether the number of assumptions alone will lead to the system being unworkable.

That's the main problem I had with this entire thread. It started as a series of off-topic arguments in the Q&A thread, then Arioch was forced to stuff it into a new thread, and it never had any systematic approach anyway. I do enjoy a good, civilized argument, but what's the topic here?

I kept asking MBehave to make a proper, structured and comprehensive new thread that could serve as a good basis for a debate, but instead, it simply became even more chaotic. Likewise, I don't even know what we are arguing about right now, whether Orions are even feasible, or effective, or maybe their mass-production requirements? The various assumptions and the math that is derived from them are multiplying too fast.

But the most important question is, what are we basing all those assumptions on? Arioch never provided any information about Earth's industrial capacity. Piling complex calculations upon purely fictional numbers? That's an utterly evil path I know too well from some WH40 discussions.

WH40 Holywar?Show

It usually ends with a Banhammer exterminatus.

[Demarquis]

Hi everyone. First post.

It seems to me that you can't evaluate or compare military technology without specifying the strategic goal. Presumably the goal for humanity in an armed confrontation with either of the warring parties isn't to win, but to make invasion so expensive, through attrition tactics, that attacking isn't worth it. That reduces war to a branch of economics.

To determine whether or not humans could pull this off we need to know some things. Profit (or benefit) can be measured in different ways: one way is the savings one receives when one removes an enemy's ability to damage or threaten to damage one's own resources. The humans aren't causing damage to anyone's resources right now, so the only thing we need to know is how much damage the humans could do if they threatened to. To make this a credible threat, humans would have to be able to do this damage while spending fewer resources (as a percentage of their total species domestic product) than they destroy. To make removing this threat profitable, an attacker would have to be able to destroy the humans capacity to do damage while spending fewer resources than the damage the humans can credibly threaten to do.

Another way to define profit or benefit is if the invading alien society experiences a net gain in economic or military productivity by capturing and using humanity's economic resources.

If all of these considerations can be solved on the positive side of the ledger, then it makes sense for the Loroi/Umiak's to attack humanity. Humanity wins if in the course of the attack they can damage or threaten to do more damage to the attacking forces than the attacking species can hope to save by destroying the humans forces. Otherwise they lose.

So, it comes down to:
By attacking, space aliens can save X amount of damage done to them by humans, or gain an amount X by occupying human space (X = the amount of resources the aliens save or gain - the amount of damage the humans will do to the attacking forces)

If X > 0, aliens win; If X < 0, humans win. Of course, this assumes economic rationality on the part of both species.

What does this imply for the story? First off, it seems unlikely that either species would consider the humans worth invading. It's been pointed out that given the amount of time that humans would require to tool up their industrial technology to the point where they could contend with either of the warring factions; but this works in reverse as well-- to the extent that humanity is so far behind that it we don't have time to catch up before the war involves us, it also follows that neither of the two other species have time to capture and tool up the humans before one of them destroys the other (or rather, neither of them can afford the resources to do so while engaged in a life/death struggle with the other, which is saying the same thing in different words). (Of course, if either side *does* have the time/resources to capture and utilize us, then we may have the time to catch up). It's a bit subjective, but IMHO, after reading the entire work twice, it seems to me that humanity just isn't worth it.

Given that, the corollary is that if one side miscalculated and attacked anyway, the humans could probably do enough damage through defensive attrition to make them change their mind. This is independent of whatever tech level the humans are at compared to the attackers. The greater the gap, the less we are worth, and the less damage we would have to do to convince the attackers to go away. Stone age tribes with bows and spears could do it just by successfully killing the occasional victim guerrilla fashion (ie, by using asymmetric warfare). In that case, there would be nothing on Earth worth losing even a single guard over, not while engaged in that life or death struggle with the other faction. So "Orions vs. Loroi Jump Ships" isn't relevant, at least not on a tactical level.

Of course, even technologically advanced species may not exhibit perfect economic rationality at all times. This entire analysis could be thrown off in the case of a religious movement practicing forceful conversion, or something similar. However, again, the story doesn't seem to support that assessment. Both sides seem basically rational in their approach to the war, given their position with respect to each other.

To paraphrase "Moneyball": you don't buy a weapon, you buy deaths. How many deaths per capita of the enemy can each side by with the resources available to them?

[MBehave]

We were provided information on Earths industrial capacity.

Population 20 billion Earth
Terrans have no problems getting material on on/off planets.
Majority of all equipment/supplies are produced on Earth and Mars and shipped to the other systems who rely on it to survive, 40 systems and colonies(research/supply/mining are in 40 systems)
TCA had to build ~50 jump capable warships to police the trade routes.
Arioch himself has stated their is "A lot" of trade.

Orions are possible with Earths 2020 industrial...

Its unreasonable to assume 140 years in the future with almost ~2.5x the population Earths industrial output is equal or better then 2020?

Apparently for many on these forums thats a YES...


You say...
"I kept asking MBehave to make a proper, structured and comprehensive new thread that could serve as a good basis for a debate, but instead, it simply became even more chaotic. Likewise, I don't even know what we are arguing about right now, whether Orions are even feasible, or effective, or maybe their mass-production requirements? The various assumptions and the math that is derived from them are multiplying too fast."
Posts?

I thank you for exchanging your idea with us, but you ever introducing more and more assumptions just leads to the question whether the number of assumptions alone will lead to the system being unworkable.

That's the main problem I had with this entire thread. It started as a series of off-topic arguments in the Q&A thread, then Arioch was forced to stuff it into a new thread, and it never had any systematic approach anyway. I do enjoy a good, civilized argument, but what's the topic here?

I kept asking MBehave to make a proper, structured and comprehensive new thread that could serve as a good basis for a debate, but instead, it simply became even more chaotic. Likewise, I don't even know what we are arguing about right now, whether Orions are even feasible, or effective, or maybe their mass-production requirements? The various assumptions and the math that is derived from them are multiplying too fast.

But the most important question is, what are we basing all those assumptions on? Arioch never provided any information about Earth's industrial capacity. Piling complex calculations upon purely fictional numbers? That's an utterly evil path I know too well from some WH40 discussions.

WH40 Holywar?Show

It usually ends with a Banhammer exterminatus.

[MBehave]

Many optics including electronic based from nightvision to red dots and lasers, these optics and electronics are designed to function without fail for thousands of over 1000g cycles.


Detonating a Nuke off center is detonating it OFF CENTER if you have a 50m diameter plate detonating it 1m off center etc.

Splinters?
Its possible...
Space is big
real BIG

What exactly is your experience in material sciences?


Orions are not outdated, they evolved, pulsed nuclear propulsion is still considered the BEST WAY for humanity to get to another star system or to accelerate an object fast.

I understand the prohibition of hot-linking, but sites that are ripping their content already?


LOLNein indeed. They now also have a DDOS protection. Previously they explicitly allowed hot-linking (better than stolen content and removal of credits they were fighting with).

I think It's the side effect of their DDOS protection.
It works, if you link to the image directly:

SpoilerShow

Not for me. I only get an "Image" text.
(also, I did this in my spoiler)

It may be the image is cached in your browser and thus works.
Many hotlinking protections also have this side effect, that the hot-linker can see the image (as the "code" is linked to his PC/cookie/IPaddress, and thus not linkable to other viewers).

But let's end this topic here, it's offtopic anyway.
[hr]
[hr]

I dont care about convincing, its correcting.
Its also amusing, many people on these forums without researching/commenting, I am by no means always right, but I do try to check things out if someone says I am wrong.

Only Orions with humans(organics) on them needs pistons, in reality you can have over 1000g orions using iron/steel and dont care about destroying the drive plate. They also have better turn rates because the bombs can be exploded off side to a further degree without damaging/destroying the pistons.

They are also moving significantly faster, the defending fleet only gets to shoot ~1/3rd the weapons before detonation range.

Its really impossible to estimate hit rates for PD systems vs Torpedoes(evasion)... If we assume 50% hit rates vs normal Umiak/Loroi torpedoes by PD systems and 100% hit rate vs Orions, Orions still have better survival...
Can PD punch though a drive plate or do they need main guns?
What if it takes 3 PD hits on average to kill an Orion or a main gun hit?
This would mean Orions are better unless Umiak/Loroi torpedoes have a 11% or less hit rate from PD systems.

Its impossible to work out which is really better so I just assume they are even.


Orions don't need inertia dampeners, there not manned they are Torpedoes.
Modern anti tank artillery shells which deploy tank seeking warheads above a battlefield have electronics and sensors that experience far higher g forces when fired, 5000g+.

1000g is not even a technical limitation to modern humans.

As someone working with high-stress materials, I can tell you there's a tremendous difference between "5k g during moment of firing", or semi-continuous 50g explosions and quarter-seconds without acceleration. and while the material is heating up from the many explosions.

And that leaves aside, that the handling of explosive bombs which will be shaken all the time when omitting dampers, will require hardened bombs, which will be heavier, and contain less explosive force per weight, than a system which dampens the explosive blasts.


Further still, throwing a bomb off the side will likely cause the torpedo to rotate uncontrollably, and get many damages from blast heat, instead of purely accelerating it.
Also, how will you stop the created rotation again? Another bomb to the other side?


Yes, with all you assumption, it _may_ work well.
(and that is assuming that all the splinters of the explosions will not damage any further Orions in the part of space you want to use to fly further defensive Orions to their stations / let the Orions keep their position when the solar system continues its rotation - the number of Orions you seem to contemplate may well lead to a beautiful series of explosions removing a substantial part of the Orion mines/torpedos - which you will need to replenish in a timely manner too.)
But I don't think so.
There are more reasons why this technology is not considered feasibly anymore, not even for interplanetary travels, or just to lift collected materials off the moon...

I thank you for exchanging your idea with us, but you ever introducing more and more assumptions just leads to the question whether the number of assumptions alone will lead to the system being unworkable.

[Krulle]

Many optics including electronic based from nightvision to red dots and lasers, these optics and electronics are designed to function without fail for thousands of over 1000g cycles.

I have a hard time believing that.
You have stuff designed to keep falling on the ground and continue working faultlessly even after thousand falls?

(btw, a car crash against a wall with 60 km/h (16,7 m/s, 37.3 miles/h) has only about 28 g, at 90 km/h it's still only 64 g.)

[MBehave]

You have a hard to believing in things that exist?

Thats your problem, they exist, deal with it...

G-force and impact pressure are entirely different measurements, dropped object if it falls on a corner or extrusion suffers impact pressure that can be thousands to even billions of times higher then its designed to handle while the gshock is below specifications.
Most dropped objects break because of impact pressure exceeding localized material strength and its extremely dishonest comparison and since you stated you are knowledgeable in these matters one can only believe it was done on purpose.

Many optics including electronic based from nightvision to red dots and lasers, these optics and electronics are designed to function without fail for thousands of over 1000g cycles.

I have a hard time believing that.
You have stuff designed to keep falling on the ground and continue working faultlessly even after thousand falls?

(btw, a car crash against a wall with 60 km/h (16,7 m/s, 37.3 miles/h) has only about 28 g, at 90 km/h it's still only 64g. 1k g acceleration is very hard to achieve here on earth)

[boldilocks]

You have a hard to believing in things that exist?

Thats your problem, they exist, deal with it...

G-force and impact pressure are entirely different measurements, dropped object if it falls on a corner or extrusion suffers impact pressure that can be thousands to even billions of times higher then its designed to handle while the gshock is below specifications.
Most dropped objects break because of impact pressure exceeding localized material strength and its extremely dishonest comparison and since you stated you are knowledgeable in these matters one can only believe it was done on purpose.

Many optics including electronic based from nightvision to red dots and lasers, these optics and electronics are designed to function without fail for thousands of over 1000g cycles.

I have a hard time believing that.
You have stuff designed to keep falling on the ground and continue working faultlessly even after thousand falls?

(btw, a car crash against a wall with 60 km/h (16,7 m/s, 37.3 miles/h) has only about 28 g, at 90 km/h it's still only 64g. 1k g acceleration is very hard to achieve here on earth)

But which one is a more fair comparison to a missile system where the missile is launched by exploding a nuke behind it?

[SVlad]

A thousand of torpedoes is a normal volley for a Umiak fleet. They obviously had some countermeasures for their own tactics.
Also, that ambush orion missiles would be probably around 1-5 Light Minutes far from inbound fleet. Umiak would have enough time to prepare for incoming missiles.
As for acceleration, it's milliseconds short pulse of 1000gs, not a constant acceleration, and between that detonation pulses there would be a long intervals when a next bomb is extracted from storage and placed in position. Also, that bomb storing and dropping mechanics is much more vulnerable for a pulse acceleration, that electronic crystals. The electronics is sustainable for such peak accelerations only because it's light at total deformation of the hull dampen that acceleration, stretching a milliseconds pulse to a longer time.
Also pulse acceleration pattern made orions easy target for any weapon - it mostly flight ballistically for constant time intervals. No evasion maneuvers and all.
So, my guess is that in best case scenario humans can destroy the first umiak fleet, numbered in hundreds of ships, by spending all their tens of thousands of orions. There left nothing for the next wave.
In best case, Umiaks just have fun shooting giant jumping dishes with all weapons they have: anti ship torpedoes, gunboats, anti missile missiles, point defense weapons.

[MBehave]

Why don't you take the time to enlighten me on how eactly RAMMING THINGS INTO EACH OTHER is equal to accelerating an object using specific propulsion method along the designed axis of force.

Example
An Orion with a Pistons that can accelerate at 1g can be rammed into a planet at 1g equates in your world...

You have a hard to believing in things that exist?

Thats your problem, they exist, deal with it...

G-force and impact pressure are entirely different measurements, dropped object if it falls on a corner or extrusion suffers impact pressure that can be thousands to even billions of times higher then its designed to handle while the gshock is below specifications.
Most dropped objects break because of impact pressure exceeding localized material strength and its extremely dishonest comparison and since you stated you are knowledgeable in these matters one can only believe it was done on purpose.

I have a hard time believing that.
You have stuff designed to keep falling on the ground and continue working faultlessly even after thousand falls?

(btw, a car crash against a wall with 60 km/h (16,7 m/s, 37.3 miles/h) has only about 28 g, at 90 km/h it's still only 64g. 1k g acceleration is very hard to achieve here on earth)

But which one is a more fair comparison to a missile system where the missile is launched by exploding a nuke behind it?

[Krulle]

You wrote you don't need inertia dampeners.

I consider pistons to be inertia dampeners.

My comment referred to that.

edit: the source:

Orions don't need inertia dampeners, there not manned they are Torpedoes.
Modern anti tank artillery shells which deploy tank seeking warheads above a battlefield have electronics and sensors that experience far higher g forces when fired, 5000g+.

BTW: interesting list of approximate accelerations of stuff:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of ... eleration)

Interesting things I found the piston acceleration of F1 cars (before Rev limiters), because that's indeed s.th. that starts, stops, and even reverses the acceleration. The acceleration/deceleration the material takes goes in sinus curves. (But still building up, and building the force down, instead of sudden full acceleration, then nothing, like "Orions" would have to endure.)
Ultracentrifuge has a higher g force, but it's a continuous one, not made for constant stop/go.

Artillery shells are used ONCE.
Afterwards they're deformed and would not even fit modern artillery launchers anymore.

[boldilocks]

Why don't you take the time to enlighten me on how eactly RAMMING THINGS INTO EACH OTHER is equal to accelerating an object using specific propulsion method along the designed axis of force.

Example
An Orion with a Pistons that can accelerate at 1g can be rammed into a planet at 1g equates in your world...

But which one is a more fair comparison to a missile system where the missile is launched by exploding a nuke behind it?

If you're accelerating by exploding a nuke, that's propulsion, but it's also an explosion ramming into the ass end of a missile, which seems a lot more likely to jar electronic equipment than acceleration through regular rocketry or being catapulted by a piston. Now, if it works for artille[r]y shells, then I guess it would probably work for orion missiles, but quite frankly I don't know either way.

[Bamax]

If it makes us feel any better, if NLSWR works as advertised, it is as good as NSWR.... only without as much deadly radiation. Better than project Orion even.

No... it won't hold an candle to the fictional Loroi, but it does grant 1g boost for 16 days straight for a rather modest size spaceship before running out of fuel. Not that you would do that. You would be more conservative. Still... the whole solar system can be reached in days or a little over a week. Don't believe me?

It has not been built or tested, so this only is true if it works, but it certainly seems a lot easier than fusion or AM since it is at least within our reach.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/20140724 ... revisited/


EDIT: Nevermind. Not practical. Just found out tge beutron flux required needs supernova energies... not practical.

Better to use NSWR and project orion IRL.

[Demarquis]

Forgive the newby, uninformed question, but can someone remind me what kind of drive the Loroi ships use when simply traveling through normal space? What that ever described?

[Keklas Rekobah]

Judging from the exhaust flare, it is likely some form of ion or HEPLAR thrust engine — ye olde action-reaction rocket — upgraded to Loroi tech levels.

[gaerzi]

Though keep in mind that this is a comic and we have been explicitly said some of the design choices were for stylistic reasons rather than realism.

[Bamax]

Though keep in mind that this is a comic and we have been explicitly said some of the design choices were for stylistic reasons rather than realism.

Precisely because reality kills space opera... hard.

Elon once said that he wants to make science fiction no longer science fiction, and he is doing arguably the best humanity can currently do right now.

But for what it's worth... what you see IRL for space is more because spaceships NEED to look as they do.

Utility trumps style IRL.

The problem is certain scifi tropes are desirable that reality does not care about.

With reality installed... everybody in Outsider would be flying spaceships that look like SpaceX Starship... basically big rockets.

They would all look way more similar... less variety.

[ESP]

Forgive the newby, uninformed question, but can someone remind me what kind of drive the Loroi ships use when simply traveling through normal space? What that ever described?

The Loroi and most of the other major combatants use taimat-powered "Floater" drives. Taimat (also known as "Type A" fuel) is an artificially-produced form of exotic matter with similar properties to helium-4. It is unstable, and can be induced to self-annihilate on demand, which releases an amount of energy comparable to a proton-antiproton annihilation. Taimat is less expensive to produce than antimatter, and easier to store.

The Floater drive (named after the Pipolsid, who developed it) projects the nuclear "ash" from the taimat annihilation reaction (mixed with a small amount of propellant) through a Floater field, which is the inverse of an inertial damping field; it both accelerates and temporarily increases the effective mass of the propellant, giving a very high specific impulse for a very small mass of propellant. External vanes projecting out the engine outlets extend and focus the field, both increasing thrust and allowing for thrust vectoring.

The Umiak and some of their allies use a "Polyp" drive, which works on the same principle as the Floater drive, but without the external vanes. It has a lower maximum thrust and no thrust vectoring capability, but it is more compact and more efficient in terms of the mass of the drive, energy requirement, and propellant mass requirement.

[Demetrious]

Forgive the newby, uninformed question, but can someone remind me what kind of drive the Loroi ships use when simply traveling through normal space? What that ever described?

The Loroi and most of the other major combatants use taimat-powered "Floater" drives. Taimat (also known as "Type A" fuel) is an artificially-produced form of exotic matter with similar properties to helium-4. It is unstable, and can be induced to self-annihilate on demand, which releases an amount of energy comparable to a proton-antiproton annihilation. Taimat is less expensive to produce than antimatter, and easier to store.

The Floater drive (named after the Pipolsid, who developed it) projects the nuclear "ash" from the taimat annihilation reaction (mixed with a small amount of propellant) through a Floater field, which is the inverse of an inertial damping field; it both accelerates and temporarily increases the effective mass of the propellant, giving a very high specific impulse for a very small mass of propellant. External vanes projecting out the engine outlets extend and focus the field, both increasing thrust and allowing for thrust vectoring.

The Umiak and some of their allies use a "Polyp" drive, which works on the same principle as the Floater drive, but without the external vanes. It has a lower maximum thrust and no thrust vectoring capability, but it is more compact and more efficient in terms of the mass of the drive, energy requirement, and propellant mass requirement.

Note that the gap between this kind of technology and fusion torchship drives is roughly comparable to that of... oh, I'd say early 1900s pre-dreadnaught battleships versus modern missile destroyers. And I might have been too generous, there.

This is an essential point that I suspect isn't being put in blunt and illustrative enough terms...