Human Superiority (again)

[Cthulhu]

Apparently in your version of WW2 Russians had comparable technology with equal effectiveness vs the Germans but Russians were all dumb and stupid and simply couldn't learn though the entire war.

I've studied history, among other things, and I know far more about the topic. The Russians during the beginning of the war were unaccustomed to the Blitzkrieg, outnumbered and losing huge amounts of troops and material during their hasty retreat, trading land for time. But this is not a military history forum, it's the Q&A thread of a sci-fi webcomic.

The problem is your usage of this ill-fitting comparison, since it belies your inadequate knowledge of either history or the comic's setting. What I'm trying to explain is that both sides were on roughly the same tech level and neither had an overwhelming advantage in numbers, technology or industrial might. In Outsider, however, Humanity is utterly deficient in every regard, with no time to catch up.

Therefore, how about studying the lore and trying to come up with a new insight? If you uncover something interesting, then you can compile that and present it in a new thread.

Let's keep this thread on topic and the forum orderly, shall we?

[MBehave]

I am not a History expert, however what I have read is as follows.

Russia was not on par Industrially with Germany even before losing most of their industry at the start of the invasion and it was only later in the war mid 1942-1943 with the exploitation of Eastern resources where they not only matched Germany but became the single largest producer of land war material in the world, even exceeding the USA in total tonnage produced.
HOWEVER
Russias total GDP was still below that of even preinvasion levels and many sectors such as farming were effectively left to wither as everything was directed towards military production.

Is anything I said previous post or above wrong?
I am not a history expert so feel free to just list a few books that disagree and I will be happy to read them.

Neither the Umiak or Loroi can just send fleets to attack Humanity
Based on the maps.
Umiak distance to Terran space is currently 20% of their total empire width in distance(they are closer then the Loroi), while Loroi distance to Terran space is 50% of their empire size.
Neither have warships that can travel that distance without being refueled, both on the way to Terran space and on the way back, at least what I remember from insider and Arioch statements, I can be corrected if I am remembering wrong.

Defense with current 2020 tech...

Earth currently has enough Uranium in known ore deposits if using Fusion reactors for breeding fissionable material to make 1 million Orion drive missiles to the following specs...

4500 ton Orion Drive to the Orion projects dimensions but with the following changes.
1.Disc shaped bomb that directs larger % of the blast into the Plate.
2.Plate increased in size so it does not absorb only 10% of the explosion but in conjunction with the larger blast plate reaches ~45%.
3.1gigaton Warhead casimer howitzer (because why the hell not its, so big it can carry it) deployable or Macron Cannon.
4.Dummy blow up(baloon) "warheads" (same tech as used by current ICBMs) to confuse radar and draw interceptor missile fire.
5.Rest of the spare payload space used to house extra bombs for the drive ~2800 in total...

Performance
15.5 mins of 40.5g max acceleration or ~5 mins at 108g (0-40% higher accel as weight reduces)

1Gigaton Casimer howitzer effective range using most recent hydrogen plasma beam experiments(from around 2000).
Results in
5% of energy directed towards target at 0.09773843811168301 mrad divergence
5 megatons or 277190 damage in outsider numbers
at 20000km across 350m*150m target will take around total damage of 12000(equal to 3 direct hits by Unspent Umiak/Loroi Torpedoes detonating directly against the hull)

110m macron Cannon Orion drive, 50000km engagement range vs Loroi, constant stream output 53 damage every 60 seconds at 50000km.(hit chance/avg)

The only things that make these weapons hard to mass produce(today) are
1.Getting the material into orbit.
2.Producing enough fissionable material
3.Lack of deterium for Casimer howitzer on Earth.
4.Ability to mass produce the Macrons(encapsulated hydrogen in carbon)

So making the assumption that 160 years in the future with automated production/mining robots and over 20billion humans mass producing along with large commercial fleets(as stated in insider) Humanity can...
1.Mine Deterium from sources off Earth.(outer solar system such as Titan)
2.Mine Mercury for Uranium for fissionable material and using fusion breeder reactors to convert non fissible uranium(~60% of whats mined).
3.getting crap to orbit isn't a problem...
4.Mass produce macron ammo.

If such assumptions are considered true(and I believe they are very reasonable assumptions) Humanity in outsider can build defensive weapons that functionally on par with Umiak/Loroi in terms of effectiveness in actual battle. With the difficulty being they are not easily transported between systems or used offensively.

Using USA ww2 aircraft production and ramp up because I am equating the difficulty in resources/production of Orion missiles in 2160 to ENTIRE humanity to be on par with aircraft in 1940 for the USA.
Had to start somewhere...
Further 10% of 2018 steel production gives ~40000 Orion drive frames(no bombs/warhead) so its not unrealistic in terms of devoted resources.

lets assume 4 years production because the Umiak/Loroi fleets will take months to arrive...
2158- 3611 produced(infrastructure set down)
2159- 18466 produced
2160- 46907 produced
2161- 84853 produced
Total- 153837

Terrans have been stated to be in a cul-de-sac of Jump lines, this limits the number of jump lines they need to defend.
I cant tell just how many pathways into Terran space their are from the Insider 2d map, lets go with 4 systems.
Thats 38459 missiles in each system...

Umiak ships seem to carry 100 torpedoes on average(cells+1 complete reload)
100 ships is 10000 torpedoes...

38459 Orion Missiles with a Kinetic Kill and deployable stand off warhead+decoys should in my estimation overwhelm a Loroi/Umiak fleet of 100 ships. Switch them to Macron cannons and they would wipe them out easily, and Macrons actually use LESS resources then 1gig H bombs.

How many ships can the Loroi/Umiak afford to send and how many losses are they willing to take destroying Humanity when we are not even their primary target?

I don't make the claim Terrans in outsider can stand against the Umiak/Loroi if they want to devote themselves to destroying us, my claim is we can make it NOT WORTH trying long enough to close the tech gap.

Apparently in your version of WW2 Russians had comparable technology with equal effectiveness vs the Germans but Russians were all dumb and stupid and simply couldn't learn though the entire war.

I've studied history, among other things, and I know far more about the topic. The Russians during the beginning of the war were unaccustomed to the Blitzkrieg, outnumbered and losing huge amounts of troops and material during their hasty retreat, trading land for time. But this is not a military history forum, it's the Q&A thread of a sci-fi webcomic.

The problem is your usage of this ill-fitting comparison, since it belies your inadequate knowledge of either history or the comic's setting. What I'm trying to explain is that both sides were on roughly the same tech level and neither had an overwhelming advantage in numbers, technology or industrial might. In Outsider, however, Humanity is utterly deficient in every regard, with no time to catch up.

Therefore, how about studying the lore and trying to come up with a new insight? If you uncover something interesting, then you can compile that and present it in a new thread.

Let's keep this thread on topic and the forum orderly, shall we?

[Keklas Rekobah]

↑ You are basing your assumptions on logic in the Real World.  The Soiaverse is not real.  Therefore, it does not have to follow real-world logic (at least, not 100%).  Arioch can do anything he wants with the Soiaverse.  If he wants to send a bazzillion Umiaki warships camouflaged as ginormous fuzzy pink bunny-bots, then that is exactly what will happen, and logic be damned.

(Note to Arioch: I hope not!)

[Zorg56]

There is actually another way to go with 2160 wartech of TCA i think.
Stealth asteroid bases with supressed massdrivers launching a sneak attack.
Yes it is true that effective range in combat of mass drivers is laughable (tho i disagree that they are useless against stations, 600m at 3g is just too slow), to dodge it you actually need to... Well, dodge.
If you cover your muzzleflash, and make projectile invisible to common signature detection it can ambush enemy ships from insane range during transit.
If you hide enough of those across systems it might be enogh to prevent first one or two scouting attempts by loroi/umiak, maybe even capture some of their tech from wreck.

[MBehave]

Well...
didn't realize Orion drives and nukes were super weapons...

Since even by 2020 standards they are primitive...
Since it was more about Earths possible industrial output then the weapons ontop
Meh

So in the vein of super weapons...
Arrows from a longbow

4 Bladed broadheads cause more damage then 5.56 even with hydroshock and fragmentation and is harder to treat and can cause more bleeding.
Plus you can use poison...

So another superweapon for the quiver...

[Bamax]

Well...
didn't realize Orion drives and nukes were super weapons...

Since even by 2020 standards they are primitive...
Since it was more about Earths possible industrial output then the weapons ontop
Meh

So in the vein of super weapons...
Arrows from a longbow

4 Bladed broadheads cause more damage then 5.56 even with hydroshock and fragmentation and is harder to treat and can cause more bleeding.
Plus you can use poison...

So another superweapon for the quiver...

I used to be an ardent fan of Orion until I realized it's disadvantages:

1. Works best scaled up, the wider your pusher plate is the more of the plasma blast pushes it. Missiles. Would have to look like skinny missiles with giant plates behind them on piston arms. Not very maneuverable.

2. Refueling you can forget, as nukes take several components to make that you wont find readily on ANY planet but Earth.

3. The more efficient a bomb you have the bigger plate you need or else it is vaporized. What I am saying is that the higher acceleration Orion you make, the bigger the pusher plate will be until it dwarfs the missile carrying it. Which will cause to thrust to weight losses you wanted to avoid.

4. Premature detonation pushing of the plate before it fully extends again will wreck the pistons and the drive. Which means it's futile to use as a shield, since damage would wreck your propulsion system by smashing your pistons... or if they were targeted.

Conclusion: Orion is incredibly expensive, since nukes, or the hundreds to thousands needed fir an orion battleship are far more expensive than LH/LOX or any other propellant.

Mass production matters in war, and I dare say anything else.
A few Orions will get ganked, Besides, Loroi relativistic plasma blaster beam weapons can trash stuff at half a lightsecond out, and can reach even a lightsecond out with less accuracy.

Orion would be a huge target that cannot maneuver well.

[MBehave]

You seem to be thinking an Orion dive is separate from the missile and the missile is added in front?
You also wanted them to be small...
This was your design previously.
why on earth does the missile need to be added on infront like a stick
Everything else is either not true or taken into account and modified.

hence 4500 ton Orion drive.
Which is majority steel...
Earths current steel output is ~1800 million tons a year.

Fun fact while having an Orion drive flipping like you wanted previously is pretty much not happening, by changing where a bomb detonates it can turn faster then Loroi ships can... also can change the rate of detonations to cause them to "JUMP" predicting where they will be by the time a laser/particle/plasma reaches them off more then enough to completely miss. They just need some retro thrusters to get them pointed in the right direction to begin with and off they go. Also closing rate is double so they get shot at 1/2 the time, increased size makes them easier targets but faster closing speed makes them take fire for less time.

Mercury is estimated to have far more Uranium then Earth and its tidally locked at 3:2 so getting there and having robot miners dig tunnels deep enough to not be a problem to survive the day and getting resources off planet due to low gravity is rather easy just shoot the material off.
As long as you use fusion reactors as breeder reactors for turning non fissionable uranium into fissionable(Humans in 2160 have fusion engines in their starships) it isn't a problem to mass produce nukes.

There are actually far more efficient engines then the Original Orion that use nukes but they are all harder to make and require unproven techniques.

Orion missiles...
They are seriously flawed, Ships cant carry them into battle, they have to be deployed along an expected jump lane IN the Jump area and produced/completed in the system they are deployed in.

Well...
didn't realize Orion drives and nukes were super weapons...

Since even by 2020 standards they are primitive...
Since it was more about Earths possible industrial output then the weapons ontop
Meh

So in the vein of super weapons...
Arrows from a longbow

4 Bladed broadheads cause more damage then 5.56 even with hydroshock and fragmentation and is harder to treat and can cause more bleeding.
Plus you can use poison...

So another superweapon for the quiver...

I used to be an ardent fan of Orion until I realized it's disadvantages:

1. Works best scaled up, the wider your pusher plate is the more of the plasma blast pushes it. Missiles. Would have to look like skinny missiles with giant plates behind them on piston arms. Not very maneuverable.

2. Refueling you can forget, as nukes take several components to make that you wont find readily on ANY planet but Earth.

3. The more efficient a bomb you have the bigger plate you need or else it is vaporized. What I am saying is that the higher acceleration Orion you make, the bigger the pusher plate will be until it dwarfs the missile carrying it. Which will cause to thrust to weight losses you wanted to avoid.

4. Premature detonation pushing of the plate before it fully extends again will wreck the pistons and the drive. Which means it's futile to use as a shield, since damage would wreck your propulsion system by smashing your pistons... or if they were targeted.

Conclusion: Orion is incredibly expensive, since nukes, or the hundreds to thousands needed fir an orion battleship are far more expensive than LH/LOX or any other propellant.

Mass production matters in war, and I dare say anything else.
A few Orions will get ganked, Besides, Loroi relativistic plasma blaster beam weapons can trash stuff at half a lightsecond out, and can reach even a lightsecond out with less accuracy.

Orion would be a huge target that cannot maneuver well.

[Bamax]

You seem to be thinking an Orion dive is separate from the missile and the missile is added in front?
You also wanted them to be small...
This was your design previously.
why on earth does the missile need to be added on infront like a stick
Everything else is either not true or taken into account and modified.

hence 4500 ton Orion drive.
Which is majority steel...
Earths current steel output is ~1800 million tons a year.

Fun fact while having an Orion drive flipping like you wanted previously is pretty much not happening, by changing where a bomb detonates it can turn faster then Loroi ships can... also can change the rate of detonations to cause them to "JUMP" predicting where they will be by the time a laser/particle/plasma reaches them off more then enough to completely miss. They just need some retro thrusters to get them pointed in the right direction to begin with and off they go. Also closing rate is double so they get shot at 1/2 the time, increased size makes them easier targets but faster closing speed makes them take fire for less time.

Mercury is estimated to have far more Uranium then Earth and its tidally locked at 3:2 so getting there and having robot miners dig tunnels deep enough to not be a problem to survive the day and getting resources off planet due to low gravity is rather easy just shoot the material off.
As long as you use fusion reactors as breeder reactors for turning non fissionable uranium into fissionable(Humans in 2160 have fusion engines in their starships) it isn't a problem to mass produce nukes.

There are actually far more efficient engines then the Original Orion that use nukes but they are all harder to make and require unproven techniques.

Orion missiles...
They are seriously flawed, Ships cant carry them into battle, they have to be deployed along an expected jump lane IN the Jump area and produced/completed in the system they are deployed in.

Well...
didn't realize Orion drives and nukes were super weapons...

Since even by 2020 standards they are primitive...
Since it was more about Earths possible industrial output then the weapons ontop
Meh

So in the vein of super weapons...
Arrows from a longbow

4 Bladed broadheads cause more damage then 5.56 even with hydroshock and fragmentation and is harder to treat and can cause more bleeding.
Plus you can use poison...

So another superweapon for the quiver...

I used to be an ardent fan of Orion until I realized it's disadvantages:

1. Works best scaled up, the wider your pusher plate is the more of the plasma blast pushes it. Missiles. Would have to look like skinny missiles with giant plates behind them on piston arms. Not very maneuverable.

2. Refueling you can forget, as nukes take several components to make that you wont find readily on ANY planet but Earth.

3. The more efficient a bomb you have the bigger plate you need or else it is vaporized. What I am saying is that the higher acceleration Orion you make, the bigger the pusher plate will be until it dwarfs the missile carrying it. Which will cause to thrust to weight losses you wanted to avoid.

4. Premature detonation pushing of the plate before it fully extends again will wreck the pistons and the drive. Which means it's futile to use as a shield, since damage would wreck your propulsion system by smashing your pistons... or if they were targeted.

Conclusion: Orion is incredibly expensive, since nukes, or the hundreds to thousands needed fir an orion battleship are far more expensive than LH/LOX or any other propellant.

Mass production matters in war, and I dare say anything else.
A few Orions will get ganked, Besides, Loroi relativistic plasma blaster beam weapons can trash stuff at half a lightsecond out, and can reach even a lightsecond out with less accuracy.

Orion would be a huge target that cannot maneuver well.

I suppose you are suggesting using enitre spaceships as missiles?


Expensive much LOL?

Problems I see: Technically it can be done but....


1. Expensive. Did I mention it was expensive, because I will say it again. It is.

2. You need MORE than weapons grade uranium to make a nuke You need hardware, computer circuitry etc with some resources you will inevitably have to ship from Earth for efficient installation.

3. Forging metal is best done under gravity. You don't want sloshing molten metal all over the place. That means centrufuges or artificial gravity.

Either of which will be prime targetsduring an invasion... since the trail of Orions will lead right to it.

5. Loroi and Umiak are both smaller and faster than Orions. And they can warp inertia to turn on a dime as it were, doing aerobatic loops in deep space that should by all known physics laws turn Loroi into blue chunky salsa.

Loroi can do 30g for 100. hours. Umiak are only a bit slower
Orions would have trouble hitting that unless you put inertial warping on them to go even faster than the Loroi ships, which. Loroi missiles do.

Not sure if terrans have inertial warping.

[MBehave]

Its NOT expensive.
A Medium Loroi ship may weigh 600 kt(600000 tons) dry
over 130 Orion missiles in mass
Construction of Orion missiles are simple, that is almost entirely reliant on having sufficient material, its not complicated process or fiddly technology.

Electronics: Trillions not BILLIONS of IC's are produced every year currently on Earth.
Just like real life missiles and torpedoes do not have electronic suits anywhere close to the planes/ships/subs that launch them, some command ship or missiles may exist that decide the go/no go order when hyperspace exits are detected, but beyond that its not like they need to be mass produced.

Forging?
you mean smelting?
Already stated I make the assumption getting stuff off planet isn't a problem.
Fusion reactors make any kind of energy issues moot.

You seem to be thinking an Orion dive is separate from the missile and the missile is added in front?
You also wanted them to be small...
This was your design previously.
why on earth does the missile need to be added on infront like a stick
Everything else is either not true or taken into account and modified.

hence 4500 ton Orion drive.
Which is majority steel...
Earths current steel output is ~1800 million tons a year.

Fun fact while having an Orion drive flipping like you wanted previously is pretty much not happening, by changing where a bomb detonates it can turn faster then Loroi ships can... also can change the rate of detonations to cause them to "JUMP" predicting where they will be by the time a laser/particle/plasma reaches them off more then enough to completely miss. They just need some retro thrusters to get them pointed in the right direction to begin with and off they go. Also closing rate is double so they get shot at 1/2 the time, increased size makes them easier targets but faster closing speed makes them take fire for less time.

Mercury is estimated to have far more Uranium then Earth and its tidally locked at 3:2 so getting there and having robot miners dig tunnels deep enough to not be a problem to survive the day and getting resources off planet due to low gravity is rather easy just shoot the material off.
As long as you use fusion reactors as breeder reactors for turning non fissionable uranium into fissionable(Humans in 2160 have fusion engines in their starships) it isn't a problem to mass produce nukes.

There are actually far more efficient engines then the Original Orion that use nukes but they are all harder to make and require unproven techniques.

Orion missiles...
They are seriously flawed, Ships cant carry them into battle, they have to be deployed along an expected jump lane IN the Jump area and produced/completed in the system they are deployed in.

I used to be an ardent fan of Orion until I realized it's disadvantages:

1. Works best scaled up, the wider your pusher plate is the more of the plasma blast pushes it. Missiles. Would have to look like skinny missiles with giant plates behind them on piston arms. Not very maneuverable.

2. Refueling you can forget, as nukes take several components to make that you wont find readily on ANY planet but Earth.

3. The more efficient a bomb you have the bigger plate you need or else it is vaporized. What I am saying is that the higher acceleration Orion you make, the bigger the pusher plate will be until it dwarfs the missile carrying it. Which will cause to thrust to weight losses you wanted to avoid.

4. Premature detonation pushing of the plate before it fully extends again will wreck the pistons and the drive. Which means it's futile to use as a shield, since damage would wreck your propulsion system by smashing your pistons... or if they were targeted.

Conclusion: Orion is incredibly expensive, since nukes, or the hundreds to thousands needed fir an orion battleship are far more expensive than LH/LOX or any other propellant.

Mass production matters in war, and I dare say anything else.
A few Orions will get ganked, Besides, Loroi relativistic plasma blaster beam weapons can trash stuff at half a lightsecond out, and can reach even a lightsecond out with less accuracy.

Orion would be a huge target that cannot maneuver well.

I suppose you are suggesting using enitre spaceships as missiles?


Expensive much LOL?

Problems I see: Technically it can be done but....


1. Expensive. Did I mention it was expensive, because I will say it again. It is.

2. You need MORE than weapons grade uranium to make a nuke You need hardware, computer circuitry etc with some resources you will inevitably have to ship from Earth for efficient installation.

3. Forging metal is best done under gravity. You don't want sloshing molten metal all over the place. That means centrufuges or artificial gravity.

Either of which will be prime targetsduring an invasion... since the trail of Orions will lead right to it.

5. Loroi and Umiak are both smaller and faster than Orions. And they can warp inertia to turn on a dime as it were, doing aerobatic loops in deep space that should by all known physics laws turn Loroi into blue chunky salsa.

Loroi can do 30g for 100. hours. Umiak are only a bit slower
Orions would have trouble hitting that unless you put inertial warping on them to go even faster than the Loroi ships, which. Loroi missiles do.

Not sure if terrans have inertial warping.

[SVlad]

Fun fact while having an Orion drive flipping like you wanted previously is pretty much not happening, by changing where a bomb detonates it can turn faster then Loroi ships can... also can change the rate of detonations to cause them to "JUMP" predicting where they will be by the time a laser/particle/plasma reaches them off more then enough to completely miss.

Orion provides pulsed acceleration, and the pulse intervals are limited from below. So it will be a much more predictable target.
In addition, the crossection of the Orion rocket due to it's large explosive shield will be commensurate with large ships. Thus, they can be a target not only for point defense, but also for all ship's weapons.
In addition, since it does not have it's own weapons, it will be an easy target for missiles, interceptors or gunboats.

[DevilDalek]

Or, we could just use Humans normal advantages?

[boldilocks]

Or, we could just use Humans normal advantages?

Humanity only needs one thing to rise, and it's glorious:

[QuakeIV]

I do tend to think its kindof unreasonable to apply hypothetical technology to a given setting. I think its implied that if various huge star empires aren't doing it, its because they tried it and it isnt all that good by comparison.

[Cthulhu]

I am not a History expert, however what I have read is as follows.

Russia was not on par Industrially with Germany even before losing most of their industry at the start of the invasion and it was only later in the war mid 1942-1943 with the exploitation of Eastern resources where they not only matched Germany but became the single largest producer of land war material in the world, even exceeding the USA in total tonnage produced.
HOWEVER
Russias total GDP was still below that of even preinvasion levels and many sectors such as farming were effectively left to wither as everything was directed towards military production.

Is anything I said previous post or above wrong?

1. Total GDP is not a good measurement instrument anyway, especially in case of wartime production. Double so for low-tech arms of WW2, where any metal workshop could be repurposed to make small arms, ammo or mines. You can't build your space-craft out of plywood, like back then.
2. While the industrial output was smaller, it was not by orders of magnitude, like in the comic here. Russia was also not alone, the lend-lease support was able to help bridge this gap. The TCA won't get any outside help.
3. Nothing was left to wither, and not everything was directed to the military. While the USSR lost arable land in the west, it still had other farming areas. There were also imports, of course. But all colonies are dependent on Earth.

Basically, no matter what angle you'll try, this example won't work.

I am not a history expert so feel free to just list a few books that disagree and I will be happy to read them.

I was reading books from the university library, as well as the originals in Russian, English or German. Especially the memoirs were a good insight. As to what to read? I don't have any idea on your level of history knowledge. Besides, the matter of WW2 is still quite political and once you'll get into unraveling who twists what for which purpose, it'll get you so much off-topic, that the thread will be locked. Trying to compile stuff from numerous books, with proper references and everything? This ain't a thesis I'm writing here, y'know.

Neither the Umiak or Loroi can just send fleets to attack Humanity
Based on the maps.
Umiak distance to Terran space is currently 20% of their total empire width in distance(they are closer then the Loroi), while Loroi distance to Terran space is 50% of their empire size.
Neither have warships that can travel that distance without being refueled, both on the way to Terran space and on the way back, at least what I remember from insider and Arioch statements, I can be corrected if I am remembering wrong.

You are forgetting the fact that not realspace distance, but the number of jumps is the crucial unit of measurement here. If the Orgus, with their outdated technology, managed to arrive at Esperanza, the Umiak will, too. A couple of depots in between can bridge that gap quickly. The Hierarchy can establish those in a timely manner, once they spot another tasty morsel. Also, the Hierarchy might not plan to travel back, at least before they win.

Orion Drive

Oh god, not this again.

1. Orion drives are a very wasteful system, since it utilizes only a small part of the blast, but it's immensely expensive. They are also unable to maneuver much and are still too slow, thus they can be targeted with most weapons.
2. Where are you going to station your swarm? If it's in a distant system, then how will you get them there in a timely manner? Jump drives are expensive.
3. Even if you limit yourself to defending Earth, how will you be able to intercept the kinetic weaponry launched by the enemy fleet? Your gigantic cannons won't help you there.

Just forget about the Orion system, it was a stupid idea back then, and it's one still.

Basically, you haven't shown us any concept that's entertaining, innovative (over what was already discussed here) of just properly formatted out of courtesy for better readability. Arioch had to go through the trouble of dumping all that off-topic stuff from Q&A into a new thread, even though he is most likely very busy with something. Therefore, review the Insider database and if you find something that seems interesting, present it in a new thread in a comprehensive manner. You're also trying way too hard to stuff way too much math into a fictional universe. I ain't getting paid to review that anyway, and I'm not masochistic enough to have maths for a hobby.

--edit--
P.S. After re-reading your WW2-related posts, I do have a strange feeling. On the one hand, you seem to have good, if slightly spotty, basic knowledge. You don't even have that anti-Russian bias that is very en-vogue right now. On the other hand, you pay too much attention to small details, and because of that, you tend to miss the greater picture.
That's why you missed the mark with your example. For that, small details like the composition of tank rounds or availability of radios are irrelevant. In order to understand the battlefield and war impact of the T34 tank, you don't need to focus on it's cramped turret, for example. Instead, you'd need to combine all factors, like ease of production, ease of repair/service, cross-road capability, speed/armor/firepower ratio and various other factors. Therefore, it's not that you have not enough knowledge, you simply have to learn how to apply it properly.

The same goes for this post. You overburden your readers with way too much math and very niche ideas that you have no real basis for. Do you really have the exact production numbers and industrial capability for the Earth of Outsiderverse? This is a forum for a webcomic, and its main purpose is entertainment. Thus, even if you post your ideas, focus on a novel, interesting, perhaps even inspiring point of view and present it in an easy-to-understand way. It's supposed to be recreation, not rocket science. There's a separate Aerospace thread for that.

[MBehave]

I didn't know tanks/aircraft/vehicles were LOW tech arms that any workshop could make?

Or that Stalins own orders on farmers not getting food but sent to factory workers and soldiers was not letting the agriculture wither...

Also Orions are actually MORE PRIMITIVE then current weapons systems(2020)

I said tonnage not just GDP

I stopped reading once you said Orions are inefficient because you went out of your way to either be ignorant on purpose or didn't even read and only skimmed but decided to reply.

I am not a History expert, however what I have read is as follows.

Russia was not on par Industrially with Germany even before losing most of their industry at the start of the invasion and it was only later in the war mid 1942-1943 with the exploitation of Eastern resources where they not only matched Germany but became the single largest producer of land war material in the world, even exceeding the USA in total tonnage produced.
HOWEVER
Russias total GDP was still below that of even preinvasion levels and many sectors such as farming were effectively left to wither as everything was directed towards military production.

Is anything I said previous post or above wrong?

1. Total GDP is not a good measurement instrument anyway, especially in case of wartime production. Double so for low-tech arms of WW2, where any metal workshop could be repurposed to make small arms, ammo or mines. You can't build your space-craft out of plywood, like back then.
2. While the industrial output was smaller, it was not by orders of magnitude, like in the comic here. Russia was also not alone, the lend-lease support was able to help bridge this gap. The TCA won't get any outside help.
3. Nothing was left to wither, and not everything was directed to the military. While the USSR lost arable land in the west, it still had other farming areas. There were also imports, of course. But all colonies are dependent on Earth.

Basically, no matter what angle you'll try, this example won't work.

I am not a history expert so feel free to just list a few books that disagree and I will be happy to read them.

I was reading books from the university library, as well as the originals in Russian, English or German. Especially the memoirs were a good insight. As to what to read? I don't have any idea on your level of history knowledge. Besides, the matter of WW2 is still quite political and once you'll get into unraveling who twists what for which purpose, it'll get you so much off-topic, that the thread will be locked. Trying to compile stuff from numerous books, with proper references and everything? This ain't a thesis I'm writing here, y'know.

Neither the Umiak or Loroi can just send fleets to attack Humanity
Based on the maps.
Umiak distance to Terran space is currently 20% of their total empire width in distance(they are closer then the Loroi), while Loroi distance to Terran space is 50% of their empire size.
Neither have warships that can travel that distance without being refueled, both on the way to Terran space and on the way back, at least what I remember from insider and Arioch statements, I can be corrected if I am remembering wrong.

You are forgetting the fact that not realspace distance, but the number of jumps is the crucial unit of measurement here. If the Orgus, with their outdated technology, managed to arrive at Esperanza, the Umiak will, too. A couple of depots in between can bridge that gap quickly. The Hierarchy can establish those in a timely manner, once they spot another tasty morsel. Also, the Hierarchy might not plan to travel back, at least before they win.

Orion Drive

Oh god, not this again.

1. Orion drives are a very wasteful system, since it utilizes only a small part of the blast, but it's immensely expensive. They are also unable to maneuver much and are still too slow, thus they can be targeted with most weapons.
2. Where are you going to station your swarm? If it's in a distant system, then how will you get them there in a timely manner? Jump drives are expensive.
3. Even if you limit yourself to defending Earth, how will you be able to intercept the kinetic weaponry launched by the enemy fleet? Your gigantic cannons won't help you there.

Just forget about the Orion system, it was a stupid idea back then, and it's one still.

Basically, you haven't shown us any concept that's entertaining, innovative (over what was already discussed here) of just properly formatted out of courtesy for better readability. Arioch had to go through the trouble of dumping all that off-topic stuff from Q&A into a new thread, even though he is most likely very busy with something. Therefore, review the Insider database and if you find something that seems interesting, present it in a new thread in a comprehensive manner. You're also trying way too hard to stuff way too much math into a fictional universe. I ain't getting paid to review that anyway, and I'm not masochistic enough to have maths for a hobby.

--edit--
P.S. After re-reading your WW2-related posts, I do have a strange feeling. On the one hand, you seem to have good, if slightly spotty, basic knowledge. You don't even have that anti-Russian bias that is very en-vogue right now. On the other hand, you pay too much attention to small details, and because of that, you tend to miss the greater picture.
That's why you missed the mark with your example. For that, small details like the composition of tank rounds or availability of radios are irrelevant. In order to understand the battlefield and war impact of the T34 tank, you don't need to focus on it's cramped turret, for example. Instead, you'd need to combine all factors, like ease of production, ease of repair/service, cross-road capability, speed/armor/firepower ratio and various other factors. Therefore, it's not that you have not enough knowledge, you simply have to learn how to apply it properly.

The same goes for this post. You overburden your readers with way too much math and very niche ideas that you have no real basis for. Do you really have the exact production numbers and industrial capability for the Earth of Outsiderverse? This is a forum for a webcomic, and its main purpose is entertainment. Thus, even if you post your ideas, focus on a novel, interesting, perhaps even inspiring point of view and present it in an easy-to-understand way. It's supposed to be recreation, not rocket science. There's a separate Aerospace thread for that.

[MBehave]

Since many people argue with these in multiple threads im putting it here as they are actual facts from Insider data...

Humans can innovate much more quickly than the Loroi...
Terran current weapons/fleet were not designed for fleet battles or long range...
The soonest the Loroi can get a delegation to a Terran system 2-5 years after meeting Alex...
so 2162-2165(this is delegation not a war fleet)
Terrans have non-fission Fusion bombs(Terran Torpedoes)
3000km/s is the max safe speed any ships will travel under normal conditions in a star system.(Terran ships are not much slower then Loroi/Umiak in traversing systems)

[Cthulhu]

I didn't know tanks/aircraft/vehicles were LOW tech arms that any workshop could make?

Or that Stalins own orders on farmers not getting food but sent to factory workers and soldiers was not letting the agriculture wither...

Also Orions are actually MORE PRIMITIVE then current weapons systems(2020)

I said tonnage not just GDP

I stopped reading once you said Orions are inefficient because you went out of your way to either be ignorant on purpose or didn't even read and only skimmed but decided to reply.

You also skimmed my reply, so we're even.

1. What I meant that in WW2, even low-tech production capabilities could contribute to the war effort significantly. In a space war, only high-tech counts. You have a stacking number of bottlenecks, since only a rather small number of factories can produce the required components and then, those need to be lifted into orbit and assembled into ships there. Even though slug-throwers could be useful, there won't be a chance to use them.
2. Farmers not getting food would mean they'd just die. The production quotas were increased, the farmers toiled even harder with less food, even on soil that wasn't particularly arable, yet they persevered despite the rationing or lack of horses and tractors.
3. I was referring to the pre-war GDP.
4. I know that the Orions are more primitive, the point is that they're not efficient for a large-scale deployment against a more advanced enemy. Especially if you have to deploy them in a different system, multiple jumps away.

Essentially, you're trying to counter tanks and artillery by crafting more and better Chu-Ko-Nu's, because you don't have enough rifles. But China failed to stop the Japanese in the 30s, despite the difference in numbers or even foreign help and supplies. In Outsiderverse, the sizes are reversed, and the small "isle" of low-tech Humanity must face a huge high-tech Hierarchy alone.

[gaerzi]

The same goes for this post. You overburden your readers with way too much math and very niche ideas that you have no real basis for. Do you really have the exact production numbers and industrial capability for the Earth of Outsiderverse? This is a forum for a webcomic, and its main purpose is entertainment. Thus, even if you post your ideas, focus on a novel, interesting, perhaps even inspiring point of view and present it in an easy-to-understand way. It's supposed to be recreation, not rocket science. There's a separate Aerospace thread for that.

Yep. Whenever I see these stuff about "what if The Six Worlds of Humaniti use such-or-such speculative concept of something that's theoretically possible?" like the Orion Drive or the Casaba Howitzer or whatever else, my eyes roll. Just because the concept exists in our world doesn't mean it exists in some fictional universe. Just because it would theoretically work with our understanding of physics doesn't mean it would in a fictional world. I mean in this case it's a world where you have FTL telepathy and also ballistic hyperspace jumps. Physics are going to be different from the real world.

[Krulle]

I stopped reading once you said Orions are inefficient because you went out of your way to either be ignorant on purpose or didn't even read and only skimmed but decided to reply.

This is the feeling I get from your reply.

Orion's main advantage is the high thrust and relative propellant efficiency.

The Orion concept offered high thrust and high specific impulse, or propellant efficiency, at the same time. The unprecedented extreme power requirements for doing so would be met by nuclear explosions, of such power relative to the vehicle's mass as to be survived only by using external detonations without attempting to contain them in internal structures. As a qualitative comparison, traditional chemical rockets—such as the Saturn V that took the Apollo program to the Moon—produce high thrust with low specific impulse, whereas electric ion engines produce a small amount of thrust very efficiently. Orion would have offered performance greater than the most advanced conventional or nuclear rocket engines then under consideration.

Well, we are a bit further down the line in improvements of the standard rocket systems, plus we are afraid of the nuclear fallout (rightly so).

And that's where you should stop promoting this system.

In the future, outside of our solar system, this might work for us again, but in the Soiaverse, where inertial dampers and other technologies are available, this system is inefficient.


Orion missiles? How's that going to work? How are they going to steer?
You cannot throw out an explosion elsewhere, except behind you. First, you'd need delivery systems for the bombs in other directions too than behind the rocket, plus the damper plates,... That would make the missiles very expensive and heavy, plus slow reacting to evasion manoeuvres of the target. Current missile technology solves this by aiming the rocket exhaust in a different direction, a pusher plate and explosion doesn't have that capability to that degree, so you need an additional manoeuvring system, e.g. steering nozzles at the missile nose (and you need to stop throwing bombs behind the pusher plate while manoeuvring - danger of explosion blast front damaging the sides of your missile).

I agree with you, Orions are primitive, but only because you need an extremely sturdy system.
But the bomb handling, and delivery system need to work flawlessly. And that's not simple.

And bomb technology, especially when handling fission and fusion materials, is not widespread in our economy, and I expect the strict licensing and regulations will remain even in the future, as you don't want terrorists to get their hands on these materials ("url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_bomb]dirty bombs[/url]").
So, while the technology level ain't that difficult and is basically known, the actual know-how of the finer knacks won't be known but for very few firms, which will fall under the strict regulations, licensing, and supervision.


Also, again, I agree with Cthulu.
This Interwebs discussion is not a place where you write and publish your thesis.
We are not going to provide references.

The Russians in their great war were admirably able to produce arms in large quantities, yes.
And yes, they repurposed simple workshops to make aircraft wings (some made of plywood!).
The engines were a more difficult topic. But then, the Red Army never relied on aircraft much anyway.
They relied on their Western Allies to draw the aircraft left to the Germans to the Western borders.


[edit] forgot to press "submit", hence my reply is late. Going to read the new messages and edit if necessary[/edit]

[Werra]

I didn't know tanks/aircraft/vehicles were LOW tech arms that any workshop could make?

The point is that back then what a simple workshop was able to produce wasn't that far off in battlefield potential than what then state of the art arms were capable off. 100 men equipped with basic arms were still a dangerous force.
But the more complicated your weapon systems become, the bigger the difference. No matter the discrepancy in industrial output, a nation with a modern day airforce will trounce a WW2 airforce.

Also Orions are actually MORE PRIMITIVE then current weapons systems(2020)

That says nothing about how easy they're to manufacture. A cannon is a lot more primitive than a rifle and still is far harder to manufacture.

I said tonnage not just GDP

Raw tonnage is a useless data point in this case. On earth you can use rivers, oceans, trains for cheap transportation that's light on resources.
In space simply getting the stuff where you need it takes rocket fuel, electronics and space capable vehicles with their extensive supple profile.

I stopped reading once you said Orions are inefficient because you went out of your way to either be ignorant on purpose or didn't even read and only skimmed but decided to reply.

But they are inefficient in Outsider. You need to compare them to pulse cannons and blasters. Those are weapon systems that only need to turn the barrel to aim instead of the whole construct. Their "tonnage" is also reusable, safe for what's spend on fuel to power ship and weapon.

Cthulhu has pegged you quite right he, pegged. You focus your analysis so narrowly on raw numbers and technicalities that you do not see how the system as a whole works.