Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

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cacambo43
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by cacambo43 »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Even if the Historian construct is just a chinese room, I would wager that the alien icon and the terminology were things that already existed in messages between crew members.
[nods]
OK, fair enough! :-)

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Werra
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by Werra »

GeoModder wrote:About the 'bucket', it looks like the Loroi assume a Historian construct cannot activate it from within, so neither the Loroi are safe from power-off intrusions. At least I assume the 'bucket' is a Loroi-made device.
If it's true that the Loroi don't know about power-off intrusion, then the Historian just let slip a major secret of theirs. It can not guarantee Alex won't spill that knowledge to his "captors". If they know about it, the Loroi presumably have some way of negating or mitigating its effectiveness.

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You just know Greys were plastered all over the human systems. It was a mission to make contact with aliens.

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GeoModder
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by GeoModder »

The 'secret' was out anyway since it claimed to convey a message from the Barsam captain.
It's of course always possible the Barsam and Historians are 'thick as thieves' regarding their dealings with the Loroi, so the Barsam would not throw this tidbit of capabilities to their fellow Union members.
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icekatze
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Assuming the Historian construct was telling the truth about the Barsam, and that it hasn't actually just contacted the Umiak to make the pickup, I don't think the Barsam have any way of effectively hiding information from the Mizol.

novius
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by novius »

Is it just me or is there anyone else thinking that Beryl has been uncharacteristically rude with simply picking the pad straight out of Alex's hands? Especially since his expression tells us that the construct didn't hide itself (yet) at that point.

Of course, with Beryl not knowing of the device's capabilities and limitations there could be some legitimate reasons, like...
  • She needs to verify that it is not a threat to their current situation, despite Alex's claim. (She might not know the term 'wireless communication')
  • Simple curiosity overriding her sense of tact
  • The Loroi considering salvage as 'theirs' and Alex having no claim of ownership
Though, in the light of the last panels I have the suspicion that she is concerned about this "data appliance" having picked up something the Loroi don't want the lone human to know. For example, no one would know what the salvage crews talked about while bringing in the stuff from the Bellarmine wreck.

Real Life example: Even today no one can really be sure what Amazon Alexa and the Google smart speakers pick up and what not - there are already examples of these devices listening in and recording where they shouldn't have.
Last edited by novius on Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

Errhile
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by Errhile »

icekatze wrote:hi hi

Assuming the Historian construct was telling the truth about the Barsam, and that it hasn't actually just contacted the Umiak to make the pickup, I don't think the Barsam have any way of effectively hiding information from the Mizol.
True.
Then again, the Historian construct is likely to be well-versed in information security. And one of the primary rules in that area is "need to know".

You can't spill what you don't know, regardless of methods used to pry that information from you. Even a telepath picking your brain won't learn info that simply ain't there.

Therefore I'm pretty sure the Historian construct was pretty cautious about what it told the Barsam, being fully aware this info would be rather easy for Loroi to pick. And while the same can't be said about humans (due to their Lotai), same rules shall apply: the Historian construct must have assessed the probability of it becoming known to Loroi, and possible damage it would cause.

Also, since we had the idea about Historians themselves being familiar with Humanity from their own ventures... perhaps the "Gray Alien" face icon isn't there by accident. Remember that we (nor Loroi, IIRC) don't known how an actual Historian looks like.
They just as well could be the Gray Aliens themselves :P

novius
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by novius »

Werra wrote:If it's true that the Loroi don't know about power-off intrusion, then the Historian just let slip a major secret of theirs. It can not guarantee Alex won't spill that knowledge to his "captors". If they know about it, the Loroi presumably have some way of negating or mitigating its effectiveness.
The Loroi seem to be reasonably suspicious about the Historian's capabilities. And the construct itself said that human computer technology, while being advanced (for their tech level, of course), still is behind the loop when it comes to power-off intrusion countermeasures. So it's reasonable to assume that Loroi computers do indeed have some counters in place.

About that - it looks to me that the construct, despite its boasts, couldn't just simply fiddle around with the bits on the device's mass storage - else it could have simply overwritten the OS or completely installed itself. To me it looks like it was just able to bypass the switched off WiFi to connect to the device and deliver itself via mail.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by boldilocks »

novius wrote:
Werra wrote:If it's true that the Loroi don't know about power-off intrusion, then the Historian just let slip a major secret of theirs. It can not guarantee Alex won't spill that knowledge to his "captors". If they know about it, the Loroi presumably have some way of negating or mitigating its effectiveness.
The Loroi seem to be reasonably suspicious about the Historian's capabilities. And the construct itself said that human computer technology, while being advanced (for their tech level, of course), still is behind the loop when it comes to power-off intrusion countermeasures. So it's reasonable to assume that Loroi computers do indeed have some counters in place.

About that - it looks to me that the construct, despite its boasts, couldn't just simply fiddle around with the bits on the device's mass storage - else it could have simply overwritten the OS or completely installed itself. To me it looks like it was just able to bypass the switched off WiFi to connect to the device and deliver itself via mail.
It's also possible that the "will you allow me to install myself on your device" is an act of courtesy by the historian construct. Ie, here's a potential ally, let's not start off this relationship by hacking into their systems.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by CF2 »

Looks like chatting with the Historian's AI will be happening at a later time, now that the Loroi are going to be joining Alex in there.

I'll bet Talon and Spiral give him a little grief about wearing his "ugly" jumpsuit over the Loroi EVA suit, and encourage him to slip out of it if he gets too warm wearing the extra layer. :lol:
Wonder if seeing Alex in Loroi clothing will change any attitudes toward him.
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by Mithramuse »

cacambo43 wrote:Unless and until we know more, to me it seems like a bridge too far for a Historian AI construct to get so familiar with human culture (at least those aboard Bellarmine) to understand what pornography *is* (which humans to our own point in history really haven't defined) and then to further abbreviate it to "porn" and then further associate it with a smiling pictogram of another seemingly human-centric and iconic depiction of an alien. But I'll trust Arioch has a direction and it isn't "merely" fan service. :-)

CJSF
Never know, it could at least have copied the name from some directory hidden several layers under the typical files. Or seen something similar on multiple data pads, presuming it was looking at more than one of them... not so much of a stretch, if that is the case.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by icekatze »

hi hi
Errhile wrote:Then again, the Historian construct is likely to be well-versed in information security. And one of the primary rules in that area is "need to know".
I was replying to Geomodder who seemed to be replying to Werra's statement about the Loroi not knowing about the Historians' power-off intrusion abilities.

The Barsam captain would need to know that the Historian was capable of sending the message to a powered off receiver in order to send a message to a powered off receiver, thus giving up the secret, if that ability was in fact a secret. And if the Barsam captain knows, there is a high likelihood that the Loroi will find out, or have already found out through telepathy.

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Werra
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by Werra »

How does the Barsam know what happens on the shuttle? Through the Historian. As long as he doesn't tell the Barsam the truth, the chance for them finding out that detail seems small.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by icekatze »

hi hi
Werra wrote:How does the Barsam know what happens on the shuttle?
Page 155.

• The Barsam have sensors too. They know the shuttle is powered down to avoid detection.
• Assuming the construct is telling the truth, Captain Rigai Mozin of the Agumo courier vessel Prophet's Reason knows that the construct can securely deliver a message and provide location information, the secret in question, because he asked the construct to securely deliver a message and provide location information.
• This appears to be a capability that the Loroi and the Barsam do not possess themselves, or they would have done it themselves.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by bunnyboy »

About power-off intrusion, let me think
- microgravity mapping (could sense density the object and location of the power source, etc)
- providing current into selected parts of circuit by electromagnetic waves (wireless energy)
- physical manipulation (who says that historian construct could not flip the powerswitch by itself)
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by GeoModder »

icekatze wrote:hi hi
Werra wrote:How does the Barsam know what happens on the shuttle?
Page 155.

• The Barsam have sensors too. They know the shuttle is powered down to avoid detection.
• Assuming the construct is telling the truth, Captain Rigai Mozin of the Agumo courier vessel Prophet's Reason knows that the construct can securely deliver a message and provide location information, the secret in question, because he asked the construct to securely deliver a message and provide location information.
• This appears to be a capability that the Loroi and the Barsam do not possess themselves, or they would have done it themselves.
You can consider ship sensors out. Otherwise the Umiak divisions bearing down on Gora Relay (or what remains of it) has a better chance to pick up the Highland-7 shuttle.
I'm more curious how Historian constructs keep contact with one another over interplanetary distances without the apparent use of electromagnetic signals, not to mention intrusions of disabled data systems over planetary distances.
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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by icekatze »

hi hi
GeoModder wrote:You can consider ship sensors out.
Why is that? If the Umiak can't see them, then the Prophet's Reason probably can't see them.

That leads to two basic conclusions for the people on board, the shuttle has either powered down to avoid detection, or was destroyed. Since the captain supposedly made the request, then the captain knows that the Historian construct has a capability that at least the Umiak lack, and probably the Barsam lack, since the Barsam didn't try it themselves.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by boldilocks »

The barsam probably know because the Historians know.
Ie, the Historian construct on the Barsam vessel knew that his on-shuttle container hadn't been destroyed and the container has audio/visual capabilities that the historian construct could access to realize that the shuttle was fine.
The historian then informed the Barsam of this and they hatched this idea. Or didn't, and just contacted Alex on its own.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by entity2636 »

At this point I'm more interested in what kind of help the VI is referring to, i.e. what can the Barsam or whoever else do to get Alex off the shuttle that the Loroi were unable to do and do it so that the crapton of Umiaks in-system can't object to that...

I somehow don't see the Prophet's Reason making a run for the disabled shuttle and then play blockade runner at any of the jump zones :?

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by Sweforce »

Errhile wrote:The Historians certainly have been around the local bubble for ages, but it is kinda difficult to intercept signals if there aren't any (first radio broadcast is dated in 1906, with first radio signals being transmitted in second half of the 19th century.
And keep in mind radio waves have limited speed: at interstellar distances, even if the receiving instruments are adequately sensitive to pick that up, that signal wouldn't be there for decades, centuries and even millenia (depending on distance).

Before that, well, Earth was a rather nondescript planet at the ass-end of space ;) so unless a Historian vessel (or a vessel by someone who later passed the data to the Historians) happened to investigate it, and investigate cultures (not a single one, I guess) of the local intelligent species (not really doable via electromagnetic signal interception before 1906!) by more or less setting their own "boots on the ground" (I'd assume that at their TL, the Historians would have no problem with creating a scout that would pass unnoticed in a city of that era... or simply poaching some humans for questioning!), they simply had hardly a chance to learn that.

Of course, we have absolutely no idea what the Historians actually do know, apart from the fact they certainly aren't omniscient... :P
Actually their are other techno signs to look for. The search for extrasolar planets are finding planets rapidly now. Simple astronomy should have placed earth on their maps since ancient times and a spectrograph analysis of our atmosphere would point at air pollution, giving them a head start on the invention of the radio of a century or so at least. And long before then, a planet with an oxygen rich atmosphere is cause enough for a FTL capable civilization to pay us a visit. It is perfectly possible that they left a sentinel probe behind and the reason it stopped transmitting was that humanities technology where becoming advanced enough to detect it and the historians wanted it to remain secret for the time being.

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Re: Page 157: "This is not MY datapad!"

Post by Sweforce »

boldilocks wrote:The barsam probably know because the Historians know.
Ie, the Historian construct on the Barsam vessel knew that his on-shuttle container hadn't been destroyed and the container has audio/visual capabilities that the historian construct could access to realize that the shuttle was fine.
The historian then informed the Barsam of this and they hatched this idea. Or didn't, and just contacted Alex on its own.
Nope, well not much. Imagine that you work as a security guard at the Pentagon, you work in highly sensitive areas with high ups around you gossiping about things that really shouldn't be publicly known. This does not mean you have access to sensitive materials. You may overhear talking but since you are such an able guard, that is all you register, people talking. Who these people are and what they talk about simply do not register in your mind since you are professional enough to not actually listen. In case you are captured, the only thing you can really give up is some now invalid security codes to doors you needed to be able to pass.

The barsam may know that they are carrying secrets, they need not know what thease secrets are.

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