Well of Souls Forums

Well, Werra, I see it like this... with how many tendrils Lucas had wormed into the film industry (his companies effectively defined CG, and Disney now owns the THX standards body, in addition to lots of other stuff), Disney got their money's worth even without Star Wars.

The man may be famous because of Star Wars, but he was important because of the infrastructure he created.

Well, in old EU it was more like wish of one mad sith lord, then actuall rule, other sith orders existed and so on.

I will prefer to see how loroi will react to the republic. (EU, not current canon. disney canon have republic that disarmed itself in a galaxy where pirats have Executor SSD and actually rule 60% of the galaxy.)
They will try to join it? Or will see them as a bunch of pacifist idiots? Start war if consider that they have chance to achieve victory?

Did you ever hear the tragedy of George Lucas The Wise? I thought not. It's not a story the media would tell you. It's a Hollywood legend. George Lucas was a screen writer, so skillful and so wise he could use the Force to influence Hollywood to create Art… He had such a knowledge of Hollywood that he could even keep the movies he cared about from selling out. Hollywood is a pathway to many lucrative deals, some consider to be unnatural. He became so powerful… the only thing he was afraid of was losing his IP, which eventually, of course, he did. Unfortunately, he taught Disney everything he knew, then Disney bought him out and killed his franchise. Ironic. He could save others from selling out, but not himself.

That's exactly why I think he got one up on Disney. Now they're known as the failures who ruined Star Wars for fans and investors. Well, it's not ruined yet...but do you have any hopes for 9?

Werra wrote:That's exactly why I think he got one up on Disney. Now they're known as the failures who ruined Star Wars for fans and investors. Well, it's not ruined yet...but do you have any hopes for 9?

I mean, I'd say it's already pretty ruined. The question isn't whether 9 will be good or not. 9 will have to be magnificent if it's going to save the brand, which is what it's going to have to do.

Personally I thought it was ruined by the 7th, and the 8th was just the finishing thrust. (I was too young to have any problems with the prequels.)

IMHO the franchise went off the rails early with the Teddy Bears from Endor. Later it became worse with a 11 year old semi-orphan winning a desert race in his improv flying machine against false camels wearing goggles, the senseless introduction of Jar Jar Binks, utterly unconvincing special effects, and with Hayden Christensen botching his part, playing being madly in love with Natalie Portman even before the conception of Luke and Leia.

Star Wars? Meh...

I never found the star wars story very logical, especially whatever the heroes did.
I found the teddy bears (Ewoks) lovely, although the costumes were not well done. And their "language" was far from impressive. And them being an actual factor in the fight against hypertechnological enemies? Laughable....
I found the desert race quite unlikely, and too much like an effort of having something in the film you could market as a PC/mobile game, and/or as rollercoaster for themeparks.
Yes, I saw too many hooks for merchandise everywhere to ever find the series worth the media hype it always attracted. It was groundbreaking for the Sci-Fi genre, and without StarWars it would have made its large scale cinema entry much later.... So I am happy it came at that time. But the timing is the reason it attracted so many fans, IMHO.

The quality of Star Wars declined at the same rate as George Lucas fame as a director increased. More fame = less people that dare criticize his opinions on set. That he tried to sell Yoda dakimakuras from day one didn't help either.

So if Outsider ever gets a movie adaptation, we need to cut patreon funds after the second movie.

Krulle wrote:I never found the star wars story very logical, especially whatever the heroes did.
I found the teddy bears (Ewoks) lovely, although the costumes were not well done. And their "language" was far from impressive. And them being an actual factor in the fight against hypertechnological enemies? Laughable....
I found the desert race quite unlikely, and too much like an effort of having something in the film you could market as a PC/mobile game, and/or as rollercoaster for themeparks.
Yes, I saw too many hooks for merchandise everywhere to ever find the series worth the media hype it always attracted. It was groundbreaking for the Sci-Fi genre, and without StarWars it would have made its large scale cinema entry much later.... So I am happy it came at that time. But the timing is the reason it attracted so many fans, IMHO.

Star Wars is not sci-fi. It's fantasy with spaceships and lightsabers instead of horses and regular swords. I hate when people call SW and the dumb superhero films "sci-fi", which is an isnult to the genre. (/off-topic minirant)

Star was is space opera which is a part of Sci-fi.

Try to replace sci fi elements with fantasy ones and story will collapse.


Try to change sci fi element from Warhammer 4000 and... It is fine, it is called Warhammer fantasy.

Which sci-fi element from Star Wars is irreplacable with a fantasy trope? Not saying there isn't one, just that I can't think of one.

Force = literal magic
Starships = airships or just plain ships
Fighter planes = some kind of magic carpet or enslaved winged creature/familiar
Death Star = magic ritual place
Aliens = non human fantasy races
Droids = Golems
Clone Army = Orcs (in the Tolkien sense)

Seems to be the most important elements.

Werra wrote:Which sci-fi element from Star Wars is irreplacable with a fantasy trope? Not saying there isn't one, just that I can't think of one.

Force = literal magic
Starships = airships or just plain ships
Fighter planes = some kind of magic carpet or enslaved winged creature/familiar
Death Star = magic ritual place
Aliens = non human fantasy races
Droids = Golems
Clone Army = Orcs (in the Tolkien sense)

Seems to be the most important elements.

Isn't that common with all science fiction? I mean this sort of describes Outsider as well. You could probably replace most regular elements in regular fiction stories with fantasy elements as well and then it'd be fantasy.

Werra wrote:Which sci-fi element from Star Wars is irreplacable with a fantasy trope? Not saying there isn't one, just that I can't think of one.

Force = literal magic
Starships = airships or just plain ships
Fighter planes = some kind of magic carpet or enslaved winged creature/familiar
Death Star = magic ritual place
Aliens = non human fantasy races
Droids = Golems
Clone Army = Orcs (in the Tolkien sense)

Seems to be the most important elements.

1. Yes.

2. No, it ruins all point of fortresses and so on, it allready wont be fantasy.

3. Dogfight on flying carpets... You understand HOW much out of place it is? It ruins all army vs army battles as well.

4. No, Death star more then just weapon it is almost it own world, planet of death if we look at it.

5. Yes.

6. No, droids are sentient.

7. No, Orks are living beings, droids are not.

2/7 is a low number.

Kind of. I'm sure you could cobble together fantasy equivalents for Outsider from enough DnD splatbooks. But take space travel in SW for example. Whether Yodas swamp is on another planet or on the same continent is irrelevant. What's important is that Luke has to travel. X-Wing, Ship of the Line, horseback? Works just as fine.
In Outsider the nature of space travel directly affects the story. You can't have lane based naval combat.

@Zorg56
2. We see several fortresses in SW. Dragons don't ruin the point of a castle in medieval fantasy; Airships don't do that either.
3. It's not out of place at all. Aerial jousting is not uncommon in fantasy. Examples include the Dragonlance books and Warhammer Fantasy. If it seems out of place for army battles, imagine SW: Fantasy as a high seas affair.
4. That's what is said. We only see a few corridors and a canyon. The important bit, the awesome destructive power and the vulnerability can be any magic construction, really.
6. Even some of the original storys of jewish golems had them be or become sentient.
7. Orcs as written by Tolkien are spawned in breeding pits. Can't remember if they're clones of each other, but they're essentially numberless and created for war. Was just an example. I'm sure any number of fantasy races can work.

2. Dragons usualy take over castle very easyli, and they are very rare and dont follow rule of anyone, they are bwild beasts, while airships are tool, that anyone can use. Thats why you usualy dont see them in fantasy, they are ruin warfare completly.

3. When dragon riders fight each other with swords it is not dogfight in any way of its word.

4. Indeed, but it scales up emperor to the chaos god level of power, story crashes.

6. Those are not truly golems, they are elementals, it is quite different, and still not the same as droids- because they are forces of nature.

7. No matter what race you will choose- they are still living beings. Droids are not.

For what it's worth, I would classify the SW movies either as soft sci-fi or science fantasy for the widely known factors such as insanely over-the-top and inconsistent power/energy levels, incoherent and weak science aspect overall and the force, but the last one is not the key point. Other universes that are considered pure hard sci-fi also have telepathy, telekinesis, mind control, etc. I will not touch the whole extended universe and legends thing with a ten foot pole because too many different people have let their power fantasies run amok in those.

And also, pretty much every other fictional story boils down to the basic tropes and plot devices, regardless whether it's robots and starships or dragons and magic, if you look closely enough.

I personally also dislike the fantasy elemets of Star Wars, ut it is set in a technological ecene far ahead of our capacities, even if it happened 'a long time ago, in a far away galaxy' ...

Uhmm..aren't we getting WAAAY off topic..? Start another thread about the failings of the SW universe ~ so I can ignore it.