A Call to... Arms - Page 127

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dragoongfa
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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by dragoongfa »

Arioch wrote:
dragoongfa wrote:Autopilot is a thing, wasting two trained pilots in a job that can be done by a machine is beyond stupid.
As in today's commercial aircraft (which are flown almost entirely by autopilot), the pilots are there for when things go wrong. Trusting the lives of important passengers to the vagaries of AI decision making would be truly "beyond stupid."
I was talking about the whole 'a pilot sacrifices herself as a decoy target certain to die' angle not in having pilots for a regularly scheduled flight, my thinking was like this:

There is no need to have a pilot aboard to do that, especially if the shuttle is terminally low on fuel at the first place.
Once the VIP is delivered and the shuttle has served its use then its next use could certainly be a decoy, launching it and sending it away from the VIP as a decoy target is the natural reaction but with the limited amount of fuel there is no room for fancy maneuvers at the first place.
If the shuttle is to serve as a decoy it would have to be plausible that someone important is still onboard and that someone has taken a route to safety away from the incoming hostiles. Launching the shuttle towards a safe haven at maximum acceleration and away from an incoming force is the only way to make it a plausible decoy, a commander wouldn't waste time and resources in an active battlefield to catch and capture/destroy the shuttle if they don't believe that someone important enough is aboard.
Having the shuttle broadcast calls for help from a 'high ranking' officer as it speeds away from the enemy should be enough in order to trick the Umiak commander to divert some of their units on it. This doesn't require someone to be aboard the shuttle to happen, Tempo could make a couple of recordings for this. First the call for help and then a 'final broadcast' requesting pickup due to engine trouble as the shuttle runs out of fuel and continues moving on momentum alone.
At no point do I see a plausible reason as to why a pilot is needed for a decoy, the autopilot should be more than able to handle the simple navigation solution of a long burst away from the enemy and then the onboard computer could handle the necessary broadcasts after they were recorded.

novius
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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by novius »

That was about my thinking, too. An AI might not be convincing enough to throw any Umiak squadron off of the trail of the real prize - it could very much be that they decide that a pilot needs to be there to make the ruse convincing... and remote controlling the shuttle would either introduce too much lag or could be picked up on.

Or, if the situation warrants it, that they heroically decide to give their lives for the Union and set the shuttle on ramming course...

Anyway, did someone else get the impression that the Umiak know very well that the Loroi picked up something very important from the Bellarmine and they are intent on getting their claws on it? It isn't just an Umiak task force picking fights - they are on the way to blockade the system. That way, a drifting, powered down shuttle would clue them in that their prize isn't on board any longer.

And anyone staying behind on the shuttle to make the ruse convincing would be well aware that they might not leave the system alive. Or, given the fuel situation, any moderately safe port of call before they're out of juice.

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dragoongfa
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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by dragoongfa »

There is no way for the Umiak to know if someone is actually onboard a shuttle at the first place, not without telepathy or a pseudo sciency 'life signs' detector. The shuttle running away while yelling for help and then calling for pickup after running out of fuel would look the same whether a pilot was onboard or not.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by novius »

Given that the Umiak manage to stay hidden from their Farseers now - could the Loroi place a bet on that the Umiak didn't pick up other tricks as well, like, having counterparts to Farseers on their side? Because, if they do, they'd easily pick up if the shuttle is piloted rather than AI or remote controlled.

Yet another possible reason why they might decide that they do need a pilot on the shuttle, at the very least.

In a storytelling perspective, that would make sort of sense as well. Alexander did see death amongst his own people - up close, during the destruction of the Bellarmine, amongst the Loroi, in a rather remote fashion while watching the video feeds and tactical display on the Tempest.

What he didn't see so far is a Loroi he came to personally know and sort-of befriend going on a mission she'd in all certainty never come back from. That would be a turning point for him.... so far, the Loroi-Umiak war was sort of an abstract concept to him - his ship was destroyed by 'an enemy' he never came face-to-face with, but an experience like this would definitely make it a personal matter, too, and forge an even stronger empathic bond with these aliens.

But, telling the story, that's Arioch's domain. Just saying that I wouldn't be all too surprised to see a character death at this point.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by novius »

Just asking. Does anyone else get the impression that a whole bucketload of Umiak is in hot pursuit or preparing for a pincer movement?
  • Six divisions encountered at Sala-128, two jumps out of Leido crossroads and in a position to maybe cut off an escape counter-spinwards if they'd manage to break through towards Azimol.
  • "The Stray" (two or three divisions, judging from the comment that six were "more than twice the size") having followed Strike Group 51 all the jumps from Naam.
  • And now four divisions and more arriving from spinwards through Rallis jump point intent on blocking any way out.
To me it looks like the Umiak do know that Strike Group 51 picked up something (not necessarily someone) valuable from the Bellarmine wreck and are hell-bent on not letting the Loroi get away with it.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by Krulle »

I think they may know about the specifics, but that they just got caught up in the major offensive which was planned for this time anyway.
Another coincidence stacked on top.
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Unless the Umiak have developed a way to send a message faster than a ship can carry one, something that is highly unlikely given that even the Loroi with their telepathy can't really do that, there's very little chance that the Umiak could organize this invasion and send their fleets on circuitous routes around the periphery in the time it took Strike Group 51 to head straight back home.

Far more likely, the Umiak fleets in Leido have no idea what is in the shuttle. They might see it as a random target of opportunity, and try to take it out anyways, but Talon seems confident that they'll be out of the system before the Umiak can reach them at their best speed.

Perhaps we will get to see if the Umiak are already suppressing the jump points in the Gora system, once the Blaze makes the jump.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by cacambo43 »

Maybe they either found a way to use the Well of Souls to their advantage (some sort of time-viewing?) or the Historians are the best evil double-crossers to have ever crossed a double.

CJSF

novius
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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by novius »

Krulle wrote:Another coincidence stacked on top.
cacambo43 wrote:...or the Historians are the best evil double-crossers to have ever crossed a double.
The idea that 'some people' (they?) do play their own game already came across several times in here.

In any case, neither the Loroi nor the humans nor we as the readers can actually be sure that the Umiak didn't learn (or were not told) even more new tricks, as said, and when it comes to war, that many coincidences are bound to make people suspicious. At this point it is best to assume that the Umiak pretty much got the edge when it comes to communications and intel as of recently.

In addition, the group arriving from Rallis came as a double surprise. First, Beryl just suspected it, but now got the proof that the Umiak got stealth abilities since said group did pass several pickets and waypoints without raising an alarm. Second, they arrived through a completely unexpected vector. And that means The Enemy is "out there" in locations they never suspected them to be.

(EDIT: Another possible explanation would be that the Umiak got jump capabilities surpassing those of the Loroi by a wide margin, having a wider selection of routes available to them, ones the Loroi would never think of - but the results are the same, they could pass pickets on well-established routes, "overtake" Loroi battlegroups en route to a specific system or arrive in locations where one never suspects them to be.)

And for said group revealing itself and as such giving away such a huge strategical advantage reinforces me in my belief that the Umiak are intent to catch or destroy whatever Strike Group 51 picked up at all cost.

Which makes it even more important for "the team" to hightail it out of Leido Crossroads, even if it's just to warn their people of the impending danger.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by cacambo43 »

Yes. It seems to me that the "absurd coincidence" Alex and Tempo have discussed is going to be fairly important to the story. I feel that unless Alex does something or has some sort of advantage/ability that will quickly and directly have an positive impact for the Loroi, his plight and anything regarding this "first contact" (from Humanity's point of view) are going to be very VERY unimportant to the greater situation (from the Loroi point of view).

CJSF

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

The Umiak have been described as possessing a monomania for safeguarding their territory. From the Umiak point of view, this invasion is potentially the final move in the entire war, with the chance of decisively vanquishing their foe. It seems to me like they will hit every target that is within their reach, but they are not going to lose sight of the bigger prize.

I think it says something about Clicky-27's unorthodox mentality, more than any-umiak else, that he decided to gamble for the Bellarmine's wreckage rather than let the Loroi waste more time being held up in the system.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by novius »

cacambo43 wrote:Yes. It seems to me that the "absurd coincidence" Alex and Tempo have discussed is going to be fairly important to the story. I feel that unless Alex does something or has some sort of advantage/ability that will quickly and directly have an positive impact for the Loroi, his plight and anything regarding this "first contact" (from Humanity's point of view) are going to be very VERY unimportant to the greater situation (from the Loroi point of view).

CJSF
In more ways than one. Whether they just arrived or were already there, the Umiak forces did move into a position to cut off any major route into human territory. Were they already there, it could have been them trying to outflank Loroi movement... or, yet again, in the knowledge that they do need to prevent the Loroi from advancing any further in that direction and finding out what lies out there.

In any case, help for the Loroi from the humans, or vice versa, is not to be expected anytime soon - especially since Alex's fears that another scout would turn up with an Umiak are even more well-founded now, and it could very much be that "Outsider" may be coined to "the team" (Alex, Beryl, Tempo, Fireblade, maybe Talon and Spiral) as a whole since they could happen to find themselves to be cut off from any support for some reason and left to fend for themselves, trying to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat.

We'll see. Things do look pretty grim now.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by entity2636 »

novius wrote: In more ways than one. Whether they just arrived or were already there, the Umiak forces did move into a position to cut off any major route into human territory. Were they already there, it could have been them trying to outflank Loroi movement... or, yet again, in the knowledge that they do need to prevent the Loroi from advancing any further in that direction and finding out what lies out there.
The Loroi fleets didn't advance anywhere, as far as can be understood from the earlier story. Tempo herself said, that, in short, GS51 was sent to Naam (where First Contact happened) to assist two other Strike Groups, that were in turn sent to intercept a supposedly minor Umiak raider fleet. Intel was more than wrong, due to Umiak anti-farseer tech - the first two groups ran into Clicky-27's force of 3 divisions that were hiding in the dust and gas clouds of Naam, and where completely destroyed. SG51 lost 5 ships and was forced to withdraw, having unexpectedly made Contact with humans in the process.

Clicky-27 basically said, that preparations for the invasion have been on their way for a long time already and that "we" are now witnessing the beginning of the end for the Loroi Union, so to say, and that their immediate target is Azimol. The presence of the other two multi-division sized stealth fleets in Union territory confirm what he said.
novius wrote:In any case, help for the Loroi from the humans, or vice versa, is not to be expected anytime soon - especially since Alex's fears that another scout would turn up with an Umiak are even more well-founded now, and it could very much be that "Outsider" may be coined to "the team" (Alex, Beryl, Tempo, Fireblade, maybe Talon and Spiral) as a whole since they could happen to find themselves to be cut off from any support for some reason and left to fend for themselves, trying to pull the proverbial rabbit out of the hat.
In all seriousness, the TCA navy together with the Scout Corps have less ships, than one SG51 and "our" ships are equivalent to wooden sail boats when the Loroi's are nuclear powered aircraft carriers and guided missile cruisers, so there's no help to be had from anyone.

By the way, I also have the thought in the back of my mind, that "outsider" may eventually apply to the whole quartet-plus-two-pilots. Until proven wrong by upcoming comic pages, I remain convinced that there are more Umiak fleets entering Loroi space as we speak, so to say, in fact, the whole Steppes area must be crawling with umiaks. I will not be surprised if our team on the Clearbrook will jump right into the lap of another umiak fleet waiting for them in Gora....

Well, not for them particularly, because I do not believe that our team is actively hunted, rather any Loroi force is. I would risk to say that the Umiak may even ignore a lone shuttle flying randomly through space, you know, if it comes into range - shoot it down, if not - don't bother chasing it.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by saint of m »

I love the "what are you doing" eyes she is giving him and Alex's smirk. Nice touch.

Is it just me or are the shells changing their tactics? From Zerg Rush to systematic assaults, judging from what Stillstorm was saying about the enemy formation?

And to piggy back on the Autopiolot: While I am sure in the hundreds of years between now and when the story takes place, the technology will improve, but as it is Autopiolot is glorified cruise control. It doesn't drive itself, and given how self driving cars are working now, I suspect there will still be bugs. Even if they are dealt with I doubt it would be for more than when they have nothing for lightyears to see and no disturbances like an active battle to worry them.

\

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by boldilocks »

The whole "control entry points to the system" tactic seems more likely to be a standard military tactic (isolate and destroy smaller portions of enemy forces at a time, and keep enemy forces in the dark about what's going on by denying any information from jumping systems) than one specific to capturing SG51 and their human artifacts.

Since the crossroads are an important nexus point I would assume a larger umiak offensive would want to take control of it as part of that offensive, perhaps to keep Seren from being able to easily reinforce Azimol?

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by Krulle »

The Antares trilogy (by Michael McCollum) goes much about the lack of communication channels when chokepoints (crossroads) are in enemy hands.

But seeing that the jump drive of Outsider works differently than the spatial fixed jump locations of Antares.
I imagine, since
Image
source: http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_ftl_tech.html
is only a representation of how the jump drive works, the actual entry point could, with sufficient fine-tuning of the engines and the knowledge of where the celestial bodies exactly are, be fine-tuned to possibly bypass a station at a entry point further away from the sun. But the whole vector thing remains. You basically know from which vector the enemy is coming compared to the Sun of your system. Same for the enemy, he knows which vector you have to go on to raise an alarm, and he may try to catch you before you get to the jump distance.

And if you do a major attack like the Umiak are doing, of course you try to divide the enemy territory into several smaller, non-connected systems. To limit the aid they can give each other, and to limit the coordination they can do. (Although telepathy/farsensing may be helpful in coordinating anyway.)
And you try to block obvious alarm channels. So you try preventing anything from leaving the system under attack.

Again something which reminds me of Antares.
SpoilerShow
book one of Antares may be less relevant. Here a human colony is separated from the rest of humanity since 100 years, when a giant battleship appears and flies out of the system on an interstellar vector.
book two of Antares is about finding out what is happening in the rest of the Human world, still being cut off (behind the lines) and making contact again (and establishing new channels of communication)
book three of Antares is about turning the tide, and taking the fight back to the enemy again
[edit: put in Fig. V, instead of Fig. II of source page]
Vote for Outsider on TWC: Image
charred steppes, borders of territories: page 59,
jump-map of local stars: page 121, larger map in Loroi: page 118,
System view Leido Crossroads: page 123, after the battle page 195

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by boldilocks »

What kind of punishment-duties did Alex have to do aside from damage control?

I just had a waking nightmare where it turns out he spent most of his service on the Bellarmine in the canteen, and he restores Loroi morale by actually being able to cook something edible off the awful stuff they are given as rations.

The most romantic part of the story is when he pushes a piece of bread onto each side of Beryl's head and makes her refer to herself as an idiot sandwich for undercooking a dish.

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by orion1836 »

I would like to highlight the following from Fotiadis all the way back in August of 2012 from the Page 101 discussion:
Fotiadis_110 wrote:Still, would Beryl, from a caste to whom learning as much as possible is considered the primary goal and task be happy by this limiting of contact? It cannot be certain, but my estimation is she has been thinking up different things she needs to try around him to see his reaction to get a first opinion on the behaviours of humaniti so as to further her understanding and learning potential.

Humaniti has no psitouch issues, so is it not possible we are far more comfortable with close quarters contact than traditional Loroi? Perhaps, the easy way to test it is to move herself closer and watch for the reactions invoked, given both humans and Loroi exhibit noticeably similar expressions and instinctive reactions, her getting close to him so far has yeilded a more open minded human so far, he shows more friendly interest to her than he does to fireblade, who is far more standoffish, so odds are she will attempt to try many more things in the interests of learning (I will do it, FOR SCIENCE!) and not all of them will be pleasant.
Only twice have the Loroi so far tried to use force against a human, both times they got a rather negative reaction out of their captive subject, so they ought to understand by now that trying to impose their will upon us through force or by making sweeping declarations does not motivate us to co-operate, because we don't like to bow, we are far too independent. It is my conclusion that it isn't hard to believe that Beryl has spent the last week preparing for this, coming up with different things she needs to try out to test the waters, and explore Alex's range of reactions to her behaviours.

Unfortunately for all those fanfic writers out there, odds are Beryl won't be trying to experiment with lap dances on screen.

Fortunately for the rest of us, that also means that Fireblade won't be dressing in black with a riding crop in hand either.
So... should we start looking out for riding crops? :lol:

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by novius »

orion1836 wrote:I would like to highlight the following from Fotiadis all the way back in August of 2012 from the Page 101 discussion:
Fotiadis_110 wrote:It is my conclusion that it isn't hard to believe that Beryl has spent the last week preparing for this, coming up with different things she needs to try out to test the waters, and explore Alex's range of reactions to her behaviours.

Unfortunately for all those fanfic writers out there, odds are Beryl won't be trying to experiment with lap dances on screen.

Fortunately for the rest of us, that also means that Fireblade won't be dressing in black with a riding crop in hand either.
So... should we start looking out for riding crops? :lol:
Riding crops? Nah. too simple. I bet telekinetics offer a whole new range of kinky.... :D

Joke's aside, as I said elsewhere, even before than that Beryl showed a tendency to test the boundaries of propriety, starting out with her biological enquiry, and the setting on the couch, and then several other instances where she did step into his private space. She already guessed, even out loud, that she broached a particular sensitive and perhaps taboo subject, but she didn't very much care, for sake of her curiosity and his well-being. Others might have simply waited until a 'problem' would have arisen. Compared to that, Tempo did so once, too, but there we see it is more as a 'standard interrogation tactics' to unsettle a presumedly unwilling suspect. That one is definitely interesting, because it means not only Beryl, but also Tempo already assume that humans react the same to similar situations.

Beryl, on the other hand, there is open curiosity, and maybe a smattering of attraction, even if it is just the novelty of seeing a single member of a species so similar to her own. Because it looks very much like jealousy on seeing him and Talon like this - take Talon's first words out of context for added effect - and she was sending a 'hands off of him' message on the page immediately following, then being almost flirtatious when the situation arises - I'm not sure she'd have framed that remark exactly the same (and definitely not with that shaded look in her eyes) had there been a woman in Alex's place.


Hmmm... going back to the previous tone of this posting, sorry folks, Loroi don't seem to be all too keen on sharing, too, eight-to-one female-to-male ratio or not. :D

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Re: A Call to... Arms - Page 127

Post by Gorbash »

I agree re: Tempo. Getting in his face seems like an interrogation technique -- one particularly effective against most Loroi, both because of cultural taboos and because Tempo is a powerful telepath from a scary caste, who might be able to take advantage of that close range during interrogation.

Tempo and Beryl may not so much be "assuming" humans react the same way as acting on instinct. In real life, its often hard for people encounter others of a different culture for the first time to not assume they have similar mannerisms and behaviors to themselves, and Jardin looks very much like a Loroi male (and much less "alien" to them than the other species they've encountered). Its natural for Tempo to (even unintentionally) treat talking to Jardin like talking to another Loroi.

Not to mention its likely that she was also testing to see his reaction. Male Loroi are supposedly not very forceful, and thus I assume more likely to pull back when confronted. Jardin held his ground.

Beryl's clearly... interested, however. Probably a side effect of having only encountered a male once in her life.

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