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Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot. 
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
icekatze wrote:
hi hi

Unfortunately for Talon, and the occupants of Highland-7, I believe the strategically correct move for the Clearbrook in this situation is to hit the proverbial afterburners and leave the system as quickly as possible in order to sound the alarm. Not, as Talon would like, maneuver for an earlier rendezvous.<
Hullo, Hullo.

Me thinks there will be ships better positioned for the alarm jump than the Clearbrook.
(There seems to be something stationed at Gora Relay.)
The shuttle will need the Clearbrook for its own survival.
Also it may well be the Clearbrook is accelerating too, and that the two will jump earlier this way. And the docking will simply be done at higher speeds than originally foreseen.

In any case, increased speed is of essence everywhere in this system now.
To get out of the way of the ships which do have big guns.
To spread alarms.
To secure your own ship as far as possible.
For whetever reason.

But "normal proceedings" are on hold right now, as the whole system is gearing up for immediate fights.
Adn all others need to scurry out of the way, or do their duty in supporting those who fight.

(Also: shouldn't the telepathic warnings from the in-system Rallis jump-station have reached the rest of the system hours BEFORE the light-speed limited electronic signals?
No farseer (or other sensitive telepath around) in-system to scan around for signals? Even just the ones from the Rallis jump-station?
or am I misreading the red station there, and that signals just an automatic drone station?)

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:21 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Krulle wrote:
(Also: shouldn't the telepathic warnings from the in-system Rallis jump-station have reached the rest of the system hours BEFORE the light-speed limited electronic signals?
No farseer (or other sensitive telepath around) in-system to scan around for signals? Even just the ones from the Rallis jump-station?
or am I misreading the red station there, and that signals just an automatic drone station?)


Yes, IFoF sensor buoys are automatic and the traffic control stations are manned by the Neridi (non-telepaths) who also serve as inter-system couriers. Since the Umiak ships don't have IFoF transponders the Loroi needed visual ID from the Torrent who happened to be on patrol nearby.

Also, normal telepathy is relatively close ranged, somewhere around 100 metres or so and farseers typically sit way back behind at large bases. But farseers are useless now because the Umiak have found a way to become invisible to them, how else could they get 1000+ ships into Loroi's back yard without them knowing?


Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:15 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
hi hi

There does appear to be a courier looking ship at the Gora Relay, but there doesn't seem to be anything at the Azimol relay. They will probably want a message to reach Azimol and Seren, and considering that alarms from Sala 101 and Sala 128 both arrived nearly simultaneously with the attack on Leido Crossroads itself, I wouldn't place a bet one way or another on whether there is an attack in progress on Gora as well. Perhaps I am wrong about this, maybe a lone military vessel wouldn't have much more survivability than a courier, but it might help.

Also, if I recall correctly, ships need to build up speed in the correct vector before making a jump, it could be that the Clearbrook has a head start on the Gora releay courier. I don't know where the actual jump lanes are, though. So I will concede that the courier might be able to jump immediately, but depending on the maneuvering ability of the attackers, it might also be optimal to send that courier to Azimol directly.

Yes, the shuttle will need the Clearbrook for its own survival. That was part of the point I was trying to make, that the shuttle may be considered expendable for the survival of the Union.

I believe that the Clearbrook is under acceleration. Beryl said it was on an outbound vector already. The fact is that the Clearbrook has a much higher acceleration than the Highland Seven. It should have 32gs as opposed to the Highland's 20. I don't know what their starting velocities were, but considering that the Clearbrook was stated to be on outbound vector before the Highland Seven launched, and they're ahead on the display, I suspect that they had a head start and were slowing themselves down to let the Highland catch up.

That is my analysis based on some admittedly incomplete information.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:29 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
There are three significant problems with the Umiak using unmanned warships.

First is that since ships in this milieu have crews, we must assume that they are necessary for the proper function of a ship in combat (damage control, maintenance and repair, and optimal combat utilization). So any automated combat vessels are going to be less effective than manned vessels (even with expensive and complicated extra automation); otherwise, they'd all be drones to begin with.

Second is that since the Umiak have no FTL communication, unmanned ships must rely wholly on AI and preprogrammed instructions both for tactical effectiveness and strategic direction. The longer and more complex the mission, the less likely your automated fleet will do what you want it to do (especially since the Loroi, who will know the fleet is unmanned, will be doing everything they can to confuse and misdirect the AI).

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Loroi have Historian allies who have significantly more advanced information technology than the Umiak, and who are computer infiltration experts. Any completely automated control system would be at significant risk of being compromised by a Historian hacker, in which case you'd be literally handing a fleet to the enemy.

In short, the use of automated fleets by the Umiak would be a desperation move, and the Umiak are not currently desperate.

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:25 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Arioch wrote:
There are three significant problems with the Umiak using unmanned warships.

First is that since ships in this milieu have crews, we must assume that they are necessary for the proper function of a ship in combat (damage control, maintenance and repair, and optimal combat utilization). So any automated combat vessels are going to be less effective than manned vessels (even with expensive and complicated extra automation); otherwise, they'd all be drones to begin with.

Second is that since the Umiak have no FTL communication, unmanned ships must rely wholly on AI and preprogrammed instructions both for tactical effectiveness and strategic direction. The longer and more complex the mission, the less likely your automated fleet will do what you want it to do (especially since the Loroi, who will know the fleet is unmanned, will be doing everything they can to confuse and misdirect the AI).

Third, and perhaps most importantly, the Loroi have Historian allies who have significantly more advanced information technology than the Umiak, and who are computer infiltration experts. Any completely automated control system would be at significant risk of being compromised by a Historian hacker, in which case you'd be literally handing a fleet to the enemy.

In short, the use of automated fleets by the Umiak would be a desperation move, and the Umiak are not currently desperate.


Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival :mrgreen:


Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:56 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Arent wrote:
Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival

Alas, Umiakcicles would still be detectable by Farseers.

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:03 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Arioch wrote:
Arent wrote:
Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival

Alas, Umiakcicles would still be detectable by Farseers.


But whyyyy? :shock: They shouldn't think anything!


Last edited by Arent on Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.



Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:23 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Arent wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Arent wrote:
Ok, then let's put the Umiak crews in a freezer, program an autopilot & unfreeze them shortly before arrival

Alas, Umiakcicles would still be detectable by Farseers.


But whyyyy? :shock: They should think anything!


They dream of cold six-limbed sheep.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:24 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Farseers don't detect thought, they detect the presence of the mind.

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Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:40 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
icekatze wrote:
Also, if I recall correctly, ships need to build up speed in the correct vector before making a jump, it could be that the Clearbrook has a head start on the Gora releay courier. I don't know where the actual jump lanes are, though. So I will concede that the courier might be able to jump immediately, but depending on the maneuvering ability of the attackers, it might also be optimal to send that courier to Azimol directly.


From http://well-of-souls.com/outsider/forum_system_defense.html (I cut part of the quote about why the courier system is used):
System Defense wrote:
... a courier vessel can get underway and up to jump speed in about an hour...


icekatze wrote:
There does appear to be a courier looking ship at the Gora Relay, but there doesn't seem to be anything at the Azimol relay. They will probably want a message to reach Azimol and Seren, and considering that alarms from Sala 101 and Sala 128 both arrived nearly simultaneously with the attack on Leido Crossroads itself, I wouldn't place a bet one way or another on whether there is an attack in progress on Gora as well. Perhaps I am wrong about this, maybe a lone military vessel wouldn't have much more survivability than a courier, but it might help.


There is whatever the unlabled white icon is (below the Clearbrook and to the left of the system buoy). But I'm not sure what the icon represents. And the two blue icons near the Tizaba depot - which might be the supply convoy that SG-51 had met? I think they would want to send the Clearbrook to Seren and the Gora relay courier to Azimol (since the Clearbrook is currently heading towards the Seren relay and would need to decelerate to head towards Azimol). I believe at this point the Loroi in system would be paranoid enough to insist on something going right to Azimol to warn them - too many strange breakdowns in communication and sensing to trust that something could go through Gora to Azimol.

inxsi wrote:
I think she truly believed that everything Kikitik-27 said was a lie and is just now realizing how far the Umiak might be penetrating with hidden fleets on what the Loroi considered "safe" regions, and she has just internalized how bad that could be.


Thinking this over, I'm not so sure that Beryl was surprised at the failure of farseers to detect the new enemy fleet. I think she was hoping that Kikitik-27 was lying but was prepared to believe it to be possible as a worst case assumption, so I'm wondering if the checkpoints are some other system - the only thing coming to mind are courier vessels, but I am not aware of whether the Loroi would deploy couriers to Rallis. Something I'll try to keep in mind at least.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:13 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
hi hi

If I'm reading the display correctly, the white shapes with hexagon borders are stationary posts, while the various colored shapes with circular borders are ships. If that is correct, then the object near the Azimol jump lane is a stationary object. Green is a color associated with military, and blue with civilian, but I'm not sure that 100% correlates here. Still, those two objects next to Strike Group 51, and the identical two objects next to Tizaba Depot are the outlines of transport ships.

I'm assuming that since this is a white dwarf, and because of the time Beryl said it would take to rendezvous with the Clearbrook, that the scale on this map is pretty short range. Planetary bodies that either survive a supernova, or form afterwards from the debris, that we've detected in real life seem to be much closer in. Depending on the enemy's incoming velocity, they could be on top of the defenders in a very short time.


Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:50 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Beryl is definitely having an "OH @!#$" moment and I'm sure Alex would much prefer the non-ironic use of the phrase "may you live in interesting times."


Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:46 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
What is approximate lightspeed delay from that buoy to Highlander-7 and to Leido-Sala post? And from Leido-Sala post to Highlander-7?

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Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:28 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
no real scale to check, but a guesstimate from me based on the system and that jump points tend to the outer part of the system would be 1 hour minimum, probably closer to 3, but it depends wildly on how large the star in question is, as in brown dwarf would be a matter of light minutes from a jump point on one side to one on the other whereas a supergiant would probably be days if not weeks.

hmm, looking at the insider, our solar system would have a jumpzone about 4-5 AU out.... and given that the star seems white should give it a bit more of a gravity well(or a lot more if it's blue), lets say 8 AU that gives us about 64 minutes, and given that the highlander is 1/3 to the other side, about 90 minutes lag would be my final guess.

this is just me guessing, and seeing how close i am to The Word of God.


Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:54 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
hi hi

The star is explicitly stated to be a white dwarf remnant, which are known to have masses between 0.17 and 1.4 solar masses.

All the planetary objects that we've detected around white dwarfs in real life have been very close in. Although it is expected that we will eventually find some further out, especially due to the protoplanetary disk found orbiting Mira B, the closest uninhabitable bodies mentioned are probably very close in.

The Highwind class shuttles have a listed acceleration of 20g. 19,200 solon equals 5.82 hours. At a constant acceleration of 20g for 5.82 hours, the total displacement is ~0.2876 AU. (~2.33 light minutes.)

I don't know what the initial velocity was when the Highwind was launched, but given that Strikegroup 51 is still next to the Leido-Sala post, I am guessing that their initial velocity was not significantly higher.

My conservative estimate is that everything is happening within a 1 AU radius sphere, possibly much closer.


Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:53 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Username wrote:
Oh boy Oh boy Oh boy, things are really getting interesting now! :o

I don't think it's possible for the Umiak to reverse-engineer any Human advantage on such short notice assuming a scout got nabbed.


The Humans did IIRC lose a scout in this general direction some time back. The one who's captain the Belarmine was named after.

Now that probably requires a very unlikely combination of events to for example skip her ship off the surface of Hyperspace to somewhere the Heirachy could get hold of it.


Wed Feb 07, 2018 9:14 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
icekatze wrote:
The Highwind class shuttles have a listed acceleration of 20g. 19,200 solon equals 5.82 hours. At a constant acceleration of 20g for 5.82 hours, the total displacement is ~0.2876 AU. (~2.33 light minutes.)

I don't know what the initial velocity was when the Highwind was launched, but given that Strikegroup 51 is still next to the Leido-Sala post, I am guessing that their initial velocity was not significantly higher.

My conservative estimate is that everything is happening within a 1 AU radius sphere, possibly much closer.


Decided to check the math with some estimations and indeed everything appears to be much, much closer.

1) The shuttle can't be accelerating all the time and they need equal time to slow down again. Let's assume, that the acceleration at 20g took 1 hour and initial speed was close to zero: on page 107 they started engine burn and on page 111 Tempo says they have reached their cruising speed. During this time our friends had a couple of conversations and the comic pages appear to follow each other directly, without significant breaks in the timeline. That would give us a distance traveled of 1270940km and a cruising speed of 2541880 km/h

2) On page 123 we see that the shuttle is about half way between the jump points. If the total flight time is estimated to be about 6 hours, they have traveled about 6.35 million km, or 0.042AU. That would give us a system diameter of a bit less than 0.08AU which is not totally unreasonable - the semi-major axis of the planet 51 Pegasi b is ~0.053AU


Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:41 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Arioch wrote:
Farseers don't detect thought, they detect the presence of the mind.


It would be better to argue that they can do some kind of "astral perception". In moo2
the Elerians could see the whole galaxy, even uninhabitated planets.

If you freeze down a brain, there won't be any electrical current & therefore no mind.
Unless you take the position there are things we do not yet understand, like a "soul".


Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:57 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Arent wrote:
Arioch wrote:
Farseers don't detect thought, they detect the presence of the mind.


It would be better to argue that they can do some kind of "astral perception". In moo2
the Elerians could see the whole galaxy, even uninhabitated planets.

If you freeze down a brain, there won't be any electrical current & therefore no mind.
Unless you take the position there are things we do not yet understand, like a "soul".


If you freeze down a brain, doesn't it turn to mush?


Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:21 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Well shit has hit the fan but will we get more pages like 78-79?

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Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:37 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
SVlad wrote:
What is approximate lightspeed delay from that buoy to Highlander-7 and to Leido-Sala post? And from Leido-Sala post to Highlander-7?

The white dwarf system is very compact, so the communication lag in most cases is less than 4-5 minutes.

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Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:40 pm
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
boldilocks wrote:
If you freeze down a brain, doesn't it turn to mush?


With our current technology, you would destroy a lot of cells, but not all. You can freeze/unfreeze liver relatively well, because
that organ can quickly regenerate. The question is whether it would be possible to refine that technology to a point where
the damage is negligible.


Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:51 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
And the thawing quick enough to be of tactical use.
No use freezing the bodies (and mind), then sneaking behind the lines, only for the thawing to take 3 days, making your ships sitting ducks while the defenders come to your location....

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Thu Feb 08, 2018 7:59 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Krulle wrote:
And the thawing quick enough to be of tactical use.
No use freezing the bodies (and mind), then sneaking behind the lines, only for the thawing to take 3 days, making your ships sitting ducks while the defenders come to your location....


It depends how you imagine future technology. In Alien & similar movies, you often see some kind of cryonics that either
needs some hours for waking or even some kind of regenerative medicine to repair the damage done by freezing. If you
just take the position that in the outsider universe something like that doesn't exist you're fine. No one says that outsider
necessarily has to accept science fiction tropes of these movies.


Thu Feb 08, 2018 10:54 am
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Post Re: Page 124 and 125, interesting times afoot.
Well, in a Sci-Fi story setting, you just hand-wave it as "technology acquired and under control....

I just wanted to point out that this freezing and thawing of sapient beings may be strategically irrelevant, depending on exact point of technology.....

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Fri Feb 09, 2018 12:39 am
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