Geiger counter?

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Trantor
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Trantor »

Mjolnir wrote:Radioactivity measurements in easily machine-usable form: http://www.dailyack.com/2011/03/radioac ... japan.html
Nice Powerpointengineering*. Maybe a tad too optimistic? 8-)





*yes, i know. He´s an Apple-guy. I chose my words carefully.
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Arioch »

Leave it to xkcd to come up with the cool chart.

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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Mjolnir »

I'm not sure how a CSV file of numeric measurements is either optimistic or "Powerpoint engineering".

Here's a paper on some measurements taken in Seattle. The new stuff is easily distinguished from material left over from old bomb tests by instruments capable of measuring the particle energy...short lived volatiles from recently active fuel rods, probably from the reactor venting done when they started pumping in seawater.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/110 ... 4853v1.pdf

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Re: Geiger counter?

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Mjolnir wrote:I'm not sure how a CSV file of numeric measurements is either optimistic or "Powerpoint engineering".
This statement of yours surprises me. I had the impression that you´re a quite logical thinking human being.

But i´ll explain: Look at this and this.

So, on the one side some random wannabedude relying on questionable official TEPCO-"data". Stating something retarded* like "I think everyone should take a deep breath, step back, and look at the evidence which is suggesting that this is not another Chernobyl in the making. It's may not even be another Three Mile Island."

On the other side Dr. Gerhard Wotawa from the austrian Institute of Meteorology and Geodynamics, with international reputation. And direct access to CTBTO-data. Stating that alone in the first three days the amount auf released radioactivity was between 20 and 60 percent of Chernobyl (That alone would make FuckUpShima INES 7).


Now, who to believe? 8-)



And, BTW, a little ontopic (if somebody is still interested): Since the first (heavily diluted) parts of the plume reached northern germany, my geiger counter shows some interesting spikes up to 0,3microsievert. Normally it idles around 0,04 without spikes.
No reason to panic, but to say it in Spocks words:
Image

;)






* Yes, retarded. And very disappointing from someone who calls himself "Scientist". A real Scientist would never state such a dumb comment on a process still in the making.
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

It is pretty clear to me that a lot of biased nonsense (and quite likely deliberate disinformation by people with vested interests) is going around on both sides of the nuclear debate. The truth is out there, but I doubt that laymen like myself will know what it is until we can see the aftermath for ourselves.

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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by sunphoenix »

I feel nuclear power is indeed a grand future for clean energy for mankind... IF they STOP cutting corners when making these plants and build them right! They need to be showing proper respect for how dangerous nuclear energy is and stop doing things 'half-assed'!
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Mjolnir »

Trantor wrote:
Mjolnir wrote:I'm not sure how a CSV file of numeric measurements is either optimistic or "Powerpoint engineering".
This statement of yours surprises me. I had the impression that you´re a quite logical thinking human being.

But i´ll explain: Look at this and this.
...I'm still not sure if you're even serious or just pulling my leg. A CSV file with numeric measurements is Powerpoint engineering, while a series of slides isn't? Are we thinking of the same Powerpoint?

Trantor wrote:So, on the one side some random wannabedude relying on questionable official TEPCO-"data". Stating something retarded* like "I think everyone should take a deep breath, step back, and look at the evidence which is suggesting that this is not another Chernobyl in the making. It's may not even be another Three Mile Island."

On the other side Dr. Gerhard Wotawa from the austrian Institute of Meteorology and Geodynamics, with international reputation. And direct access to CTBTO-data. Stating that alone in the first three days the amount auf released radioactivity was between 20 and 60 percent of Chernobyl (That alone would make FuckUpShima INES 7).

Now, who to believe? 8-)
Well, the CSV file potentially has transcription/conversion errors, but the original sources are available. The slides are from a guy claiming a second Chernobyl from data that he has access to but hasn't published, nor has he given details of his analysis. Given the actual measurements around Fukushima and the rest of Japan, the Chernobyl comparison automatically gets him a rejection.

The radioactive material currently being measured at distant points is would be that released in the reactor ventings done when they started pumping seawater in. The isotope ratios clearly mark it as being from very recently active fuel: there's just not much of the iodine isotopes left in the spent fuel pools to be emitted. I can only guess what he did, but it appears he made a wild extrapolation that those rates of release were sustained day after day. Time series data from stations in Japan show a few sharp spikes, and radiation at the site has been steadily dropping.

And the data's from JAEA, MEXT, and others. Some of it is from TEPCO, but they're not the only people in Japan measuring radiation. TEPCO's certainly not behind the work being done at the University of Washington (http://www.npl.washington.edu/monitoring/). Just the idea of even trying to cover up a massive radioactive release is...not viable.

Trantor wrote:And, BTW, a little ontopic (if somebody is still interested): Since the first (heavily diluted) parts of the plume reached northern germany, my geiger counter shows some interesting spikes up to 0,3microsievert. Normally it idles around 0,04 without spikes.
You're some guy on the internet with a Geiger counter, an instrument that takes training and a great deal of care in usage to produce accurate measurements, measuring levels that are essentially at background, far below background in much of the world. You've given little detail of your equipment and procedure, and the units you gave for your measurements aren't even complete. (0.3 µSv accumulated over what period of time?)

I trust the work done by the people at the University of Washington Physics department and the IAEA a lot more than the measurements you've made.

Trantor wrote:* Yes, retarded. And very disappointing from someone who calls himself "Scientist". A real Scientist would never state such a dumb comment on a process still in the making.
Saying to calm down and look at the evidence is disappointing and unscientific?

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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Mjolnir »

sunphoenix wrote:I feel nuclear power is indeed a grand future for clean energy for mankind... IF they STOP cutting corners when making these plants and build them right! They need to be showing proper respect for how dangerous nuclear energy is and stop doing things 'half-assed'!
Not sure half-assed is the right description here. These 30-40 year old reactors took ground accelerations considerably above their design values and shut down cleanly, and then got swamped by a tsunami that was more than twice as high as the largest they expected to receive. They should probably keep doing whatever they're doing to earthquake-proof the things (it obviously works), and just assume tsunamis will get over the walls and design to withstand that (keep the building with the generators/pumps from flooding during the relatively short period of inundation). And install passive or independently powered emergency ventilation in those buildings! (That's something TEPCO might be directly to blame for...I think such vents were a later manufacturer-recommended modification, which TEPCO may not have ever installed.)

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Re: Geiger counter?

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sunphoenix wrote:I feel nuclear power is indeed a grand future for clean energy for mankind... IF they STOP cutting corners when making these plants and build them right! They need to be showing proper respect for how dangerous nuclear energy is and stop doing things 'half-assed'!
The only inherent safe type of NPP would be the sun. ;)

Ok, it´ll be quite a while to 100% renewable energy, so for a safe type of NPP there would be the LFTR. Sadly the military–industrial complex* is not interested because it´s not dual-use.



*that´s what Ike said...
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Re: Geiger counter?

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Mjolnir wrote:...I'm still not sure if you're even serious or just pulling my leg. A CSV file with numeric measurements is Powerpoint engineering, while a series of slides isn't? Are we thinking of the same Powerpoint?
Yes, but you´re obviously not getting the point. Hint: "Powerpointengineer" is a derogative word.
;)
Since it is used in Germany exactly like this i thought it is common in the US, too. If it´s not, then sorry for the confusion.

Mjolnir wrote:The slides are from a guy...
...with a scientific doctors degree and leading an institute of international reputation...

Mjolnir wrote:claiming a second Chernobyl from data that he has access to but hasn't published
...because CTBTO forbids publication...

Mjolnir wrote:nor has he given details of his analysis.
He has. On German. Sorry, decrying Dr. Wotawa is futile. ;)

Mjolnir wrote:Given the actual measurements around Fukushima and the rest of Japan, the Chernobyl comparison automatically gets him a rejection.
Oh, those precise, public "measurements"... Yes, yes, there is no danger for nobody, and a 12 miles evacuating zone is sufficient...
8-)
What about the CTBTO? Or the measurements out on the sea? Remember the westerlies?

Mjolnir wrote:You're some guy on the internet with a Geiger counter, an instrument that takes training and a great deal of care in usage to produce accurate measurements, measuring levels that are essentially at background, far below background in much of the world. You've given little detail of your equipment and procedure, and the units you gave for your measurements aren't even complete. (0.3 µSv accumulated over what period of time?)
Your spin doesn´t work. I never claimed to be scientific. I just asked for other independent/amateur-data. That´s all i´m interested in.


But to turn the table: Who are you? Why are you fiercely defending an industry that apparently fucked up everything?
;)
Nah, just joking. From the first posting on i didn´t wanted to start an ideological dispute because it is pointless.

Mjolnir wrote:I trust the work done by the people at the University of Washington Physics department
Do you have some urls?

Mjolnir wrote:and the IAEA a lot more than the measurements you've made.
The same IAEA that says Fuckupshima is just INES 5? 8-)

Mjolnir wrote:
Trantor wrote:* Yes, retarded. And very disappointing from someone who calls himself "Scientist". A real Scientist would never state such a dumb comment on a process still in the making.
Saying to calm down and look at the evidence is disappointing and unscientific?
What "evidence", when the process is still in the making?

Look, this argument is Offtopic and leads to nothing. The whole thing is sadly still in progress. We´ll see the results later. And then we´ll see who is wrong or right.
The internet doesn´t forget. ;)
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Re: Geiger counter? - 80 Days After

Post by Trantor »

Sry for necroposting, but i´m delighted to announce that germanys right-wing(!)-goverment today abandonded nuclear energy.
Effective on the seven oldest Blocks by today (and this is a very happy moment for everyone in northern germany, as crappy NPP Kruemmel will never be fired up again, YAY!), and on the last PWRs until around 2020, depending on the situation.
This comes together with investments in infrastructure, renewable energies and funding new storage technologies. Germany will then be the first leading industrial country without nukes, and this will trash the feigned argument that nukes are vital for a industrial country. Also this will give germanys industry a headstart in green energy systems, so we can later export them.
Bisniss, you know. :mrgreen:

So, that seems to me as the only positive outcome of Fuckupshima* until today.

And on the initial topic:
Well, little INES turned 7 somewhere inbetween (congratulations afterwards btw, 8-) ),
public interest has faded (surprise, surprise),
a proposed grassroot-geigercounter-network didn´t start,
nuke-industry is business as usual - lies, malicious deceit and incompetence,
but at least my own readings say no more elevated level compared to end of march.
(Just for the ones who are maybe still interested. ;) )





*BTW: Did you know that "Fukushima" means "Happy Island"? 8-)
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Cdr Straker »

Good for you! Let us know how much your electric bill rises, M'kay? ;)

Meanwhile, until your new unicorn poop-fueled generators start churning out all of that clean, renewable power, maybe you guys can buy more electricity from your neighbors....... who are still using nuke-power and fossil fuels after watching the "green-energy" economy in Spain implode.
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Mjolnir »

Nobody died due to nuclear power in this incident. The adverse environmental impact was quite minimal (local fisheries might get some badly needed time to recover a bit due to the radiation scare reducing demand). These were obsolete reactors...newer, safer designs just wouldn't have had the issues that afflicted these after cooling was lost. Even these antiques could have been better protected from the tsunami if we'd known it was necessary. And of course, Germany isn't particularly prone to 9+ magnitude earthquakes and mega-tsunamis in the first place. Clearly, the best course of action is to abandon the safest of the large scale power generation technologies and replace it with...well, something. You can just buy power from your neighbors and brag about dropping nuclear power in the meantime.

Nuclear is green energy...and the only green energy that can scale up to meet our energy needs. The only other option is coal, and that'll cause devastating environmental damage in the short term and kill us slowly in the long term. The only "clean coal" is that left in the ground. None of the various renewables scale up as needed, and many turn out on closer inspection to be very non-"green". Humanity has a choice between going nuclear now, or going nuclear when we finally realize that energy problems can't just be wished away, after wrecking our environment and producing widespread misery due to ever worsening environmental damage and energy shortages.

An update on the status of Fukushima: from the beginning, it was known the cores had sustained damage, with reactor 1 expected to have 50-70% of the core damaged by overheating. Combining computer simulations with measurements taken from the reactors over time and with better measurements taken more recently, it looks like the cores did worse than thought, with only reactor 3 having undamaged fuel assemblies left, and with temperatures in some areas getting high enough for the pellets themselves to melt. The fuel in reactors 1 and 2 is sitting in the water at the bottom of the reactor, that in 3 is either sitting on undamaged rods or also in the water at the bottom of the reactor...in both cases it has reached steady state, and is not in danger of melting further. It's actually easier to deal with in the short term...it's safely under water, further rapid changes in temperature can't happen, and there's no worries of a steam explosion from chunks of hot core falling into the water while people are working near the damaged reactors.

This will make cleanup much more difficult though, they've got a more extensive version of the problem experienced at Three Mile Island, with fuel assemblies welded to each other and to the reactor structure...there's a lot more work ahead to extract the fuel from the reactors. A more immediate problem is that reactor 1's pressure vessel is leaking water into its containment structure, and that seems to be leaking some of it into the building basements. The containment structures are designed to be flooded when moving fuel in and out of the reactors, so hopefully patching that leak won't be too difficult, but they've got a big mess underneath to clean up now, and they'll want to check the other containment buildings carefully to make sure they're still watertight.

There's been an incredible amount of information made available...frequently-updated radiation measurements from a wide variety of locations, temperature and pressure measurements of the reactors themselves (albeit with damaged equipment and uncertain accuracy), photography and video...the only malicious deceit has been on the part of the anti-nuke nuts, spreading panic about radiation, claims of reactors exploding and comparing the incident to Chernobyl, and you'll have to do something to support claims of incompetence. Keep in mind that there was no reason to expect an earthquake and tsunami of this severity, and that the widespread devastation made it difficult to locate needed equipment and personnel and get them to the plant. In hindsight, there's things they could have done better, and TEPCO's definitely got a bad record, but this incident's been handled about as well as could be expected given the circumstances.

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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Trantor »

Cdr Straker wrote:Good for you! Let us know how much your electric bill rises, M'kay? ;)
We expect something around 50€/private Person/Year.
That´s nothing compared to the loss of a whole life.
You know, when you worked more than half of your life to buy yourself a little house, like me, you won´t be so pleased if you lose it because some "experts" irradiate it forever. Ask the people of Itate how they feel.

But that´s a lesson only life or thinking for yourself can tell you, not your neocon-PR. ;)
Cdr Straker wrote:Meanwhile, until your new unicorn poop-fueled generators start churning out all of that clean, renewable power, maybe you guys can buy more electricity from your neighbors....
Look, we are Umiak, err, Germans. We could bury you with capacity. Max peak consumption ever was around 85GW. Normal consumption is around 68GW.
But all our Powerplants together can deliver 129GW, with the green energy part calculated at their average, not their theoretic max. And we have a so-called cold reserve with another 12GW, just in case.
All our NPP, though they´re worldwide overall by far the most productive ones, could ideally deliver around 23GW, if all of them are working
(and unlike the french, we NEVER get mails that request us to save energy because their crappy NPP can´t deliver).
Now do your math.

And BTW: The renewables are already at an average of 22GW. Our unicorn-poop is an economy-factor. Bisniss, y´know.

The only problem is actually, that our beloved neighbours will blow something up, and that unfavourable winds will lay waste on our land. BTST, ´86.
Cdr Straker wrote:who are still using nuke-power and fossil fuels after watching the "green-energy" economy in Spain implode.
Again just neocon-chitchat.
1.) Spanish economy crisis wasn´t triggered by green energy.
2.) We´re not spanish. We´re germans. We´re rich, and we can do the math.
Bisniss, as i sad before. And you will be welcome to buy our tech then.
Remember: This is our right-wing gov, not the tree-huggers. And as they can´t think for themself, they get their orders from the Industry. And Industry says, green energy is the next big thing (already).
So they now get massive funding to solve the rest of the problems, i.e. storage, and then they make shitloads of money.
We´re not talking about costs, we´re talking investment. Bisniss, y´know. ;)

To say it with the Barsam´s words: "This day will be long remembered, little brother." ;)
And to repeat myself: "We´ll see who is wrong or right.
The internet doesn´t forget." ;)

Edit: Linkfix.
Last edited by Trantor on Mon May 30, 2011 6:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Trantor »

Thors Hammer, my good ol´ friend! :mrgreen:

Mjolnir wrote:Nobody died due to nuclear power in this incident.
Just wait and see.

And why does somebody have to die first?
Isn´t it enough that many will suffer from cancer?

It comes in very handy for the nukeindustry that humans die anyways. And that age can´t be calculated. All the Liquidators that died after Chernobyl officially - always - died of "natural" causes in the end, but what triggered them?
Clearly, the best course of action is to abandon the safest of the large scale power generation technologies and replace it with...well, something. You can just buy power from your neighbors and brag about dropping nuclear power in the meantime.
See post above. Your knowledge seems not to be up-to-date.

uclear is green energy...and the only green energy that can scale up to meet our energy needs.
Awww. How come this oh-so green and supersafe energy cannot be insured?

What about the atrocities in the whole chain? From mining (see impact from the Grasberg-mine alone, or how the miners in africa suffer), then the oh-so clean processing? And reprocessing?

And don´t forget about all our supersafe ultimate disposal places!
Oh. Wait one. There isn´t. And there will never be. Gosh. This shit radiates for a million years, where to put it save? How much will this cost? And will it be save forever? Or do we just curse or children for our shareholder benefit, and leave it to them? (Did i hear someone saying "transmutation"? :mrgreen: )

An update on the status of Fukushima: from the beginning, it was known the cores had sustained damage,
No, sir. From the beginning on there were lies and malicious deceit from the officials.
The one who published first that there was something bad going on was fiercly decried by you.

Combining computer simulations with measurements taken from the reactors over time and with better measurements taken more recently, it looks like the cores did worse than thought,
Now you see my with my jaw dropped.
Weren´t you the one who decried said measurements from the CTBTO? The one who brought up this guy from England with his powerpoint-yadayada-"simulations" that said everything will be in perfect order, nothing happened?
Let´s check: Ah, yes, it´s all in the Thread. Sry, you lose.

Keep in mind that there was no reason to expect an earthquake and tsunami of this severity,
Lies, lies, lies and malicious deceit. There was a tsunami in the same region around 1900 with a height of 14m. And that wasn´t the only one. They simply ignored it.


You know what´s funny?
You´re subtly trying to make me look like an ideologist (anti-nuke-nut), but it´s not me who´s the ideologically blinded here.

And that btw is an interesting phenomenon, because i´d normally consider you a well educated and intelligent person. You show a lot of knowledge in your posts, especially in science and tech topics, but at least in this vital case you draw utterly false conclusions. I really puzzle about this.
sapere aude.

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Re: Geiger counter? - 80 Days After

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Trantor wrote:Sry for necroposting, but i´m delighted to announce that germanys right-wing(!)-goverment today abandonded nuclear energy.
Good luck with the next two governments who need to put that in effect. There was a "phasing out" commitment made about a decade ago for the oldest nuclear reactors in my country (by 2015 IIRC), and the current government allows extensions to the power company that owns them in return for the profit they make in keeping those reactors running after their normal lifetime is over.

If it wasn't for Fukushima back in March, only the greens would have made a ruckus about it.
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by discord »

trantor: imho nuclear power is probably the safest and 'greenest' around, if people would STOP using designs(and facilities) that are like 50-60 years old.
why you ask? well simple, take the thorium cycle for instance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle
or for that matter do some EFFING recycling!? since 'spent' fuel rods contain a LOT of useful materials, like for instance plenty of fissile material to use in nuclear reactors....but noooo there are rules that forbid that...since the same 'principles' and 'methods' are used when creating weapons grade fissile material....

or work out the kinks in FAST reactors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_reactor which effectively could burn out the 'waste' as fuel....

basically, current design reactors and recycling fuel rods would lower the amount of 'waste' by at least 50% and could get closer to 100% than you might think.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archi ... uclear.pdf <---- nice little text on the subject, damn it is annoying when real life physics comes and annoys peoples delusions...and yes, i enjoy killing cat girls, i would like to adopt a few though for safekeeping of the species, can someone point out where/how you do that?

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Re: Geiger counter? - 80 Days After

Post by Trantor »

GeoModder wrote:
Trantor wrote:Sry for necroposting, but i´m delighted to announce that germanys right-wing(!)-goverment today abandonded nuclear energy.
Good luck with the next two governments who need to put that in effect. There was a "phasing out" commitment made about a decade ago for the oldest nuclear reactors in my country (by 2015 IIRC),

Same here. It was initially initiated by the social-democrats and the greens years ago.
GeoModder wrote:and the current government allows extensions to the power company that owns them in return for the profit they make in keeping those reactors running after their normal lifetime is over.
Also same here. Our current right-wing-gov scuttled the phase-out end of last year, stirring uproar.
Sound like Germany. ;)

Then Fukushima happened, and the right-wing lost Baden-Württemberg in an election to the Greens (!, not only to the SD, but tha Greaans!!1!). FYI: Ba-Wü was (ultra-)conservative for 55 consecutive years, it´s the state where eg Mercedes, Porsche and Siemens have their factories.
Of course it wasn´t only Fukushima, there was already a momentum triggered by general dissatisfaction with the new "inherited" Governor, who for example let the police shoot at protesters, wasted billions of taxmoney and so on. But still. Enough concern for "the Merkel" to take action.

Now some mockers joke that the greens will become redundant, as their only major point is occupied by the right-wing. :mrgreen:
GeoModder wrote:If it wasn't for Fukushima back in March, only the greens would have made a ruckus about it.
Yep. That was the straw that broke the camel's back.

May i ask, which country are you from?
sapere aude.

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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Trantor »

discord wrote:trantor: imho nuclear power is probably the safest and 'greenest' around, if people would STOP using designs(and facilities) that are like 50-60 years old.
why you ask? well simple, take the thorium cycle for instance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorium_fuel_cycle
Yes, i already stated that i could live with LFTRs.
Sadly the military-industrial complex isn´t interested in them.
discord wrote:or for that matter do some EFFING recycling!? since 'spent' fuel rods contain a LOT of useful materials, like for instance plenty of fissile material to use in nuclear reactors....but noooo there are rules that forbid that...since the same 'principles' and 'methods' are used when creating weapons grade fissile material...
They already do, and it´s a dirty industry. See Sellafield or La Hague.
LFTRs wouldn´t have sth like "refinery" or "fuel rods" (another thing that repels greedy capitalists, when theres nothing to profit), and therefor no waste from these processes. And we´re talking about vast amounts of waste from these processes.
discord wrote:or work out the kinks in FAST reactors http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fast_reactor which effectively could burn out the 'waste' as fuel...
Hm, liquid metal as "coolant" and moderator. Ask the russians, what a hell this is... (submarine-powerplants etc)
discord wrote:basically, current design reactors and recycling fuel rods would lower the amount of 'waste' by at least 50% and could get closer to 100% than you might think.
But were still talking about reprocessing. And in reprocessing there´s waste, and possible mistakes.
LFTRs don´t need that at all. They only need online-processing for extracting some gases and lead, the rest stays wthin the salt.
discord wrote:http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/archi ... uclear.pdf <---- nice little text on the subject, damn it is annoying when real life physics comes and annoys peoples delusions...
Come on, that´s just PR. ;)
Nuclear energy is clean and green... yadayada. Nothing there is true. Take a look where they mine uranium. It´s an atrocity. Even here in Germany there were officially (!) 117.000 victims due to uranium mining (former east germany, SDAG Wismut-Aue).
Nope, i don´t buy this.
Thorium-mining would be a lot cleaner and less lethal, but no one is interested.
discord wrote:and yes, i enjoy killing cat girls, i would like to adopt a few though for safekeeping of the species, can someone point out where/how you do that?
I sadly don´t know, but pls bring some along if you find them. :mrgreen:
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Re: Geiger counter?

Post by Mjolnir »

Trantor wrote:What about the atrocities in the whole chain? From mining (see impact from the Grasberg-mine alone, or how the miners in africa suffer), then the oh-so clean processing? And reprocessing?
And coal mining is so much better...

Fact: Fukushima didn't kill anyone. Didn't even make anyone sick. It's possible that some people will have absorbed enough radioactive iodine in spite of limited exposure and iodine tablets that they will have an increased risk of thyroid cancer, fortunately thyroid cancer is readily diagnosed and treated...radioactive iodine being one way to attack it.

Just mining coal kills thousands a year. Coal ash spills wipe out huge swathes of land, destroying houses, causing tremendous damage to water life, and contaminating soil and water with heavy metals that, unlike radioactive iodine or cesium, never decay and produce health effects that are much harder to treat if not outright impossible...neurological damage, birth defects, etc. Coal mines produce similar forms of pollution, and some of the mining practices are simply devastating to the environment (mountaintop removal, for example).

Trantor wrote:And don´t forget about all our supersafe ultimate disposal places!
Oh. Wait one. There isn´t. And there will never be. Gosh. This shit radiates for a million years, where to put it save? How much will this cost? And will it be save forever? Or do we just curse or children for our shareholder benefit, and leave it to them? (Did i hear someone saying "transmutation"? :mrgreen: )
We don't need to store it forever. The "spent", mostly-unburned fuel that's been through a generation 1, 2, or 3 reactor once is almost entirely still useful fuel. We can build reactors now that reduce the fuel to isotopes that'll be safe in a matter of centuries, both eliminating the long term waste problem and greatly decreasing the amount of fissile isotopes that have to be mined in the first place...given current stockpiles, we could get by without mining anything at all for a good long time. It can be considered a type of transmutation, just one that has the pleasant side effect of producing power.

Contrast with coal ash and the various emissions from coal mining, which decay...well, never.

Trantor wrote:
An update on the status of Fukushima: from the beginning, it was known the cores had sustained damage,
No, sir. From the beginning on there were lies and malicious deceit from the officials.
The one who published first that there was something bad going on was fiercly decried by you.
No, JAIF has been publishing regular updates since the earthquake and tsunami took the plant down, from a few days after the quake they were estimating severe core damage in 1 and 3. Estimates later went up to 50-70%, and back down to 50% based on what available instrumentation seemed to be saying. You can check, the updates are still up. So are all the posts in this thread...

Trantor wrote:
Combining computer simulations with measurements taken from the reactors over time and with better measurements taken more recently, it looks like the cores did worse than thought,
Now you see my with my jaw dropped.
Weren´t you the one who decried said measurements from the CTBTO?
CTBTO is not taking measurements of the reactor temperatures, pressures, and water levels and flow rates, etc. Your "said measurements" is incorrect, their measurements have absolutely nothing to do with this. I'm talking about temperature, pressure, and water level measurements made at the Fukushima plant, much of the data coming from instrumentation that's been repaired, installed, or made accessible by workers relatively recently as working conditions in the buildings have improved.

Trantor wrote:The one who brought up this guy from England with his powerpoint-yadayada-"simulations" that said everything will be in perfect order, nothing happened?
I'm at a complete loss as to why you refer to time series measurement data in machine-readable form and a few example visualizations of said data as "simulations" or why you keep comparing such data to a Powerpoint presentation. There were no simulations whatsoever at that page, and no Powerpoint presentations.

The simulations I refer to are finite element models created by Tepco (yes, yes, Tepco is evil, I know), based on detailed knowledge of the structure and materials of the reactors, their operating history and current conditions, and so on. Without measurements to compare the results to, you can not be certain you're simulating the actual conditions. The current estimates of the reactor status are based on simulating various possible outcomes and matching the results to actual measurements.

Trantor wrote:Let´s check: Ah, yes, it´s all in the Thread. Sry, you lose.
Yup, it's all in the thread. I think you might want to check the score again.

Trantor wrote:
Keep in mind that there was no reason to expect an earthquake and tsunami of this severity,
Lies, lies, lies and malicious deceit. There was a tsunami in the same region around 1900 with a height of 14m. And that wasn´t the only one. They simply ignored it.


You know what´s funny?
You´re subtly trying to make me look like an ideologist (anti-nuke-nut), but it´s not me who´s the ideologically blinded here.
I don't have to do anything to make you look like an anti-nuke-nut...you're constantly misrepresenting and cherry-picking information, ignoring information that contradicts your views, and ranting about conspiracies and coverups. You're doing the job quite well all on your own.

Trantor wrote:And that btw is an interesting phenomenon, because i´d normally consider you a well educated and intelligent person. You show a lot of knowledge in your posts, especially in science and tech topics, but at least in this vital case you draw utterly false conclusions. I really puzzle about this.
It is a curious blind spot. I'm not sure why you have these irrational beliefs about nuclear power, but education seems to help in many cases...if you can let go of the preconceived belief that nuclear power must be bad and reason from facts instead.

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