Well of Souls Forums

Darth Cloaked Guy wrote:

TrashMan wrote:That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

Isn't that exactly how you want a bluff to work?

You bluff should make sense to you...and not to the enemy. A bluff should basicly be credible, but not redicolous.
Acting illogicly and loosing more than you gain is a TERRIBLE bluff.

bug commander lost little really, even if he charged out of the cloud loroi superior acceleration could probably avoid engagement, at best he might manage a joust that the loroi did not want, that is not tantamount to 'easily destroying the enemy' as shown previously in engagements.

and we know little of the bug side of the equation, the bugs could be low on expendables(munitions, food or fuel), making engagement less wanted, or maybe the loroi are in position to notice the entrance of the next scheduled umiak supply transport and intercept it, at which point making them move would be....wanted...or etc.

we just do not know enough about the bug side to know what tik-27 is thinking and what is logical for him.

Darth Cloaked Guy wrote:

TrashMan wrote:That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

Isn't that exactly how you want a bluff to work?

true, he made a bluff they [loroi] read into it.


kliktiks27 Make bluff check, Roll d20= 1

Critical fail!


@trashman
Your just assuming that they [umiak] need to kill every loroi in sight. And your assuming the Umiak are lying.

Most people seem to consider the Loroi as the hero of this comic, and thus they cant lose. but what Tik-27 is actually telling the true?

discord wrote: we just do not know enough about the bug side to know what tik-27 is thinking and what is logical for him.

Thus my comment about being wary of reader omniscience causing bias for or against the usefulness of the information gained from communication.

How much do we actually know, and how much are we *assuming*?

The Umiak commander could be waiting a little bit longer to stomp out an enemy remnant in exchange for information they may not be able to readily obtain any other way....small price. Cheap, even. War is a series of gambles, not a cut and dry numbers simulation.

That piece of information could be enough to tip the balance. Yes, this means they possibly gave up destroying an effective enemy commander. That washes out if the Loroi can't prevent the Umiak from withdrawing either, since the Loroi might only get a similar chance if the Umiak commander chooses to bull-rush them. They still possibly stood more to gain than lose from talking.

Also, conserving resources if possible is plain wise. Gaining information in exchange for either a lie the enemy can't immediately disprove, or a truth they can't do anything about, especially if either could be highly damaging to enemy morale....meh, why not?

Overkill Engine wrote:
How much do we actually know, and how much are we *assuming*?

The Umiak commander could be waiting a little bit longer to stomp out an enemy remnant in exchange for information they may not be able to readily obtain any other way....small price. Cheap, even. War is a series of gambles, not a cut and dry numbers simulation.

That piece of information could be enough to tip the balance. Yes, this means they possibly gave up destroying an effective enemy commander. That washes out if the Loroi can't prevent the Umiak from withdrawing either, since the Loroi might only get a similar chance if the Umiak commander chooses to bull-rush them. They still possibly stood more to gain than lose from talking.

Also, conserving resources if possible is plain wise. Gaining information in exchange for either a lie the enemy can't immediately disprove, or a truth they can't do anything about, especially if either could be highly damaging to enemy morale....meh, why not?

Oooooo that last part make the whole situation on page 89 much more interesting. however from what this reader gathers, Still-storm has made up her own decision, she calling Kilk-27 buff by firing off a torpedo at the bell remains.

now would it not be interesting if the torpedo was "intercepted" by a closer, undetected Umiak fleet ( coming from the protostar cloud).

Given the number of ships Kliktik has at his disposal (ultra-heavies!!!!) the Loroi really don't stand a chance in this battle. And they know it... The Umiak can't stop them from leaving either.


So I ask again - what information did the Umiak gain from this? And what did Loroi get?
What did they hope to gain?
Did Kliktik really believe Sillstorm would surrender (even if she would, what about her subordiantes?)

Seems to me Klitik is stalling. Making the loroi loose more time by listening to him babble on.
And I doubt he's lying.
Not only did Arioch hint the blance of power is about to change, but lying about your invisible fleets when an enemy commander can run back to tell is a very, very bad move.

If Umiak have the hiding tech, but no hidden fleets, the Klitik is a moron as he tipped hte Loroi off, who can now prepare.
If Umiak have both, then him telling it changes nothing.
If Umiak have neither then that would be the greatest bluff ever (and it goes against what Tempo said)

Maybe the right question is not "What will umiaks gain from this?" but "What will Tikkutik gain from this?"

Given his uniqueness and different values, he may have some problems with his superiors or he just wan't something to get himself out of front lines.

Why do you even assume he is unique?

That Stillstorm recognizes him hardly make him unique...

Is there any confirmation that Kliktiks behavior is not common for a Umiak?

We seen Fireblade, Beryl, Temp and Stillstorm from the Loroi... we only seen one Umiak so far. So what is out of ordinary/uncommon here?

I don't think Stillstorm is just referring to Kliktik's facial features.

She said "odd patterns" and then comments that its displays a certain degree of higher intelligence, tactical understanding and even self-preservation that its comrades do not.

This Umiak clearly doesn't think completely as the hive-mind does... And its strange behavior has been observed on more than one occasion.

This actually brings up more questions than it answers. If Stillstorm has seen it, the Umiak must have as well. How is it that Kliktik can get away with such "non-Umiak" behavior? Is Kliktik a sort of Umiak maverick, as Stillstorm is?

L.

"odd" doesn't mean non-umiak. It means odd to Stillstorm. And in what context? Odd tactical patterns? Odd shell marking patterns? Odd speach patterns? she didn't specify.

Hence why why cannot really say that Kliktik is odd for an umiak, as we have nothing to compare him to.

Stillstorm seems to be saying that this Umiak commander is odd in that in situations where he loses the tactical advantage, he tends to fall back while other Umiak commanders have a tendency to fight rather suicidally to the end.

TrashMan wrote:"odd" doesn't mean non-umiak. It means odd to Stillstorm. And in what context? Odd tactical patterns? Odd shell marking patterns? Odd speach patterns? she didn't specify.

Hence why why cannot really say that Kliktik is odd for an umiak, as we have nothing to compare him to.

I would think that of all the Loroi, Stillstorm is absolutely the expert on the normal behaviour of Umiak fleet commanders, and knows when one behaves oddly. Notice also that the words withdraw and empty husks are highlighted, showing that the emphasis in her speach is on these words, and that what she means by odd.

L.

First post greetings to all. Arioch love the story.

I'd like to point out that the Umiak did gain something by divulging the information that they may have a farsensing jammer. Whether its true or not Stillstorm will report it back to HQ and the Loroi will have to assume that it is true and respond accordingly. This will force them to blanket more forces out to act as a screen to detect enemy units that are attempting to bypass the front lines, robbing those units from systems that are actively engaged against the Umiak. This will also mean that the Loroi must setup additional supply and communication lines draining even more resources that could have gone to actively fighting. This will also allow them to gain through observation a better estimate of the total Loroi strength and resources.

The fact that the Umiak commander didn't have to and indeed shouldn't have revealed such information just reinforces that possiblity that it is true. Even if the Loroi continue to detect the Umiak the argument could be made that the Umiak are allowing the Loroi to detect certain fleets to attempt to pull scouts away and open a hole in the front, thus keeping the resource drain ongoing far longer. So the Umiak did potentially gain quite a bit from a simple sentence.

TrashMan wrote:"odd" doesn't mean non-umiak. It means odd to Stillstorm. And in what context? Odd tactical patterns? Odd shell marking patterns? Odd speach patterns? she didn't specify.

Considering that this is first contact between loroi and umiak in long time, it is sure that she don't mean speech or appearance.
But he is different enough from other umiaks to get recognized.

He may be disillusioned of umiak fanatism, tired of war, tactical genius or just coward. It would be also interesting to know if umiak KGB had put mark on this guy.

TrashMan wrote:As it stands, he failed to get the Bell. (but the chances of getting it were always practicly zero)
He failed to intimidate the Loroi
He failed to gain any info...but the Loroi did get much info.

This Loroi task group gained some information that's already either painfully well known deeper in Loroi space, or will be so before these Loroi can return. The Umiak lost nothing by giving that information, as by the time even a fast courier returns to Loroi space it'll be old news, and apart from the gamble of possibly gaining the "treasure" that Stillstorm is defending, they might have caused major damage to the morale of this task group.

TrashMan wrote:That Stillstorm recognizes him hardly make him unique...

your focusing on the wrong part of the text, HE WIDREW from a battle were every other umiak just keep fighting until no one was left.

TrashMan wrote:We seen Fireblade, Beryl, Temp and Stillstorm from the Loroi... we only seen one Umiak so far. So what is out of ordinary/uncommon here?

i tought She referring about the ship pattern in answer to Alex question (otherwise she wouldn't say it but "think" it)

Karst45 wrote:i tought She referring about the ship pattern in answer to Alex question (otherwise she wouldn't say it but "think" it)

That's a good way to recognise it, too. According to Insider, the Umiak don't change ships often, if at all. I believe it was stated that starship crews are often also the same crews that fabricated the vessel in the shipyards.

Kliktik's flagship is probably pretty recognisable, either visually or electronically.

L.

Luge wrote:

Karst45 wrote:i tought She referring about the ship pattern in answer to Alex question (otherwise she wouldn't say it but "think" it)

That's a good way to recognise it, too. According to Insider, the Umiak don't change ships often, if at all. I believe it was stated that starship crews are often also the same crews that fabricated the vessel in the shipyards.

Kliktik's flagship is probably pretty recognisable, either visually or electronically.

L.

Well that might be true, given how Kilk-27 has been able to survive for this long
yet I found this on the insider guide

It was generally assumed by the Loroi at the time that these oversized superheavies were being used as flagships for Umiak commanders, but it is now believed that this was probably incorrect. Experience has since demonstrated that most Umiak commanders prefer less conspicuous smaller cruisers as flag vessels from insider superheavy section

but then again, the panels on page 88, panel three, it might be an exception, since the ship is shown.

however, i was thinking of something, could Kilk-27 suspect that there is a survivor on broad the Tempest. The reason being:

A) The Umiak have probably been able to get a rough vector of the bells course (from the floating wreckage), so they know that this ship primitive vessel was able to get through both of there lines so there are two obvious conclusion: I) the ship has something that's prevent detection from the loroi II) its the crew (any surviving crew)

B) Given, the Loroi have been defending/salvaging the wreck, they might have been able to get survivors on broad. or if not they might be bodies in order to study. But, then why are they still staying, even when attacked.

C) why is kilk-27 so nice, granted he might be telling the truth and loroi are facing a new assault, but he (it?) might have heard Alex initial messages and then his trade communications. Thus kilk-27 suspect a crew memeber is alaive and is playing nice in order to possible sway Alex toward the Umiak Side.