Stillstorm laughed...

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Tash
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Tash »

TrashMan wrote:In that case Stillstorms vision of relaity must be exceptionally limited...pretty much to "how I want thingy to be".

Everything Kikitik said makes perfect sense and there is nothing to contradict it...so it does bear no resemblance to the Iraq example.
Err...there's nothing to prove anything he said, either.
He could be talking out of his [waste expulsion orifice] about a lot of things, though likely not all of them...as has been said, it's extremely effective to mix lies with truth when attempting to mislead an enemy, especially when that enemy is out of touch with central command.
I doubt it's all just a ploy to get a hold of the destroyed hu-man ship, but that's got to be a large part of it.

That said, I'm not seeing the issue with the laugh.
Think about it, people.

Tictac-27 just told Stillstorm that her entire race is about to lose- in a war of annihilation- and she responded by laughing right in his face.
When a human does this, we celebrate it; he's showing he has supremely massive balls in the face of annihilation.
He's telling Xerxes to 'come and take them'.

When an alien does it, they're being 'tactless'.

See the problem?

TrashMan
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by TrashMan »

Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.

Nemo
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

TrashMan wrote:Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.
You seem to be operating from a presumption that there is still a war to be fought. If Tiky is being honest, from his perspective the war is over in all but name. Destroying Stillstorm's group wont affect its course, whatever that wreckage is might have some bearing on the future though. Depends, can he say without getting his hands on it? Tiky is taking a long view.

As for Stillstorm's response?

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Sprawl63
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Sprawl63 »

TrashMan wrote:Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.
Its not sacrificing a superior tactical position. If Stillstorm is let go, then they will return to find the information confirmed anyway. As far as 27 is concerned, any action Stillstorm can take is insignificant as he believes the war is already won. He considers the acquisition of the Bellarmine a higher priority in that light then the destruction of a battered strike force, tiny in comparison to the fleets that are probably doing battle elsewhere.

He also seems to be weary of war on a personal level and would rather not spill any more blood then has too be.

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icekatze
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by icekatze »

hi hi

Human beings tend to favor risk avoidance over reward seeking. This may not be the case with the Umiak.

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Trantor
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Trantor »

TrashMan wrote:Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?
FUD.
That´s all he can do.
He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm.
Not really.
TrashMan wrote:Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over...
Thinking one minute before LOL isn´t exactly cool... ;)
sapere aude.

TrashMan
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by TrashMan »

Nemo wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.
You seem to be operating from a presumption that there is still a war to be fought. If Tiky is being honest, from his perspective the war is over in all but name. Destroying Stillstorm's group wont affect its course, whatever that wreckage is might have some bearing on the future though. Depends, can he say without getting his hands on it? Tiky is taking a long view.

That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.

TrashMan
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by TrashMan »

Sprawl63 wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Again...a HUGE gamble on Kliktiks part. He's abandoning a vastly superior tactical position for this. Why?

He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm. In a war of annihilation (at least the Loroi call it so), deliberately sabotaging this opportunity is folly.

So WHY?


And yeah... reckless form Stillstorm. Not because she laughed..but because of how she does it. She didn't even take a minute to think it over..and her previous behavior doesn't paint her in a pretty light.
Its not sacrificing a superior tactical position. If Stillstorm is let go, then they will return to find the information confirmed anyway. As far as 27 is concerned, any action Stillstorm can take is insignificant as he believes the war is already won. He considers the acquisition of the Bellarmine a higher priority in that light then the destruction of a battered strike force, tiny in comparison to the fleets that are probably doing battle elsewhere.

He also seems to be weary of war on a personal level and would rather not spill any more blood then has too be.

It is sacrificing a superior tactical position. If he didn't slowly drift out of the cloud to talk, his fleet could have accelerated, burst out at high speed and obliderated the 51st.
However you want to view it, the 51st is still a Loroi asset that can still fight and take out many Umiak ships, if allowed to retreat.
So yes, his actions only make sense if he was telling the truth about Azimol.





He's in position to wipe out 51st task force, and the famed Stillstorm.


Not really.
Yes really. Loroi have better acceleration, but better acceleration is useless if you're standing still while the enemy was already accelerating for a time. He's already built up enough speed that he WILL come into weapons range and rape you.

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Trantor
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Trantor »

TrashMan wrote:Yes really. Loroi have better acceleration, but better acceleration is useless if you're standing still while the enemy was already accelerating for a time. He's already built up enough speed that he WILL come into weapons range and rape you.
Nope, they´re just drifting. Otherwise you would be right.
sapere aude.

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Arioch
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Arioch »

If Stillstorm is willing to withdraw, there isn't much the Umiak can do to force her to fight. Even if the Umiak forces build up a lot of speed before they break into the open; Strike Group 51 can simply move out of the way on a perpendicular course.

TrashMan
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by TrashMan »

Trantor wrote:
TrashMan wrote:Yes really. Loroi have better acceleration, but better acceleration is useless if you're standing still while the enemy was already accelerating for a time. He's already built up enough speed that he WILL come into weapons range and rape you.
Nope, they´re just drifting. Otherwise you would be right.
Yes, they are drifting. But they could have been accelerating.

Arioch wrote:If Stillstorm is willing to withdraw, there isn't much the Umiak can do to force her to fight. Even if the Umiak forces build up a lot of speed before they break into the open; Strike Group 51 can simply move out of the way on a perpendicular course.
If the Umiak built up speed, they should be good for one pass.
Their forward speed would add to the new vector if they also start accelerating perpendiculary.
Of course, there's no way they could catch up again after that...

Overkill Engine
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Overkill Engine »

TrashMan wrote: That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.
I have to disagree. From observation I would say that the usual Loroi tactic is not to stand ground and slug it out, more likely it is a tendency to strike and withdraw before taking casualties.

This Umiak commander has been noticed to be more...cunning/observant/subtle than most, and will do uncharacteristic things as well. Such as try to find out why the enemy is holding position instead of withdrawing.

So instead of just stampeding into enemy lines like a runaway bull, it instead opts to attempt communication to glean further information if possible. Any information is better than no information.

And information is king in total war. Sure, resources and personnel are great to have, but they are not worth nearly as much as you'd think without knowing where to allocate them, or at least, knowing where *not* to allocate them. (Edit: An easy historical example being the Maginot Line.)

This Umiak commander might just be taking the long view of knowing that you can destroy an enemy later in exchange for the one time chance at information now. This is just a battle, not the entire war.

And if you get to mind screw a noted enemy commander whether by truth or lies while doing it? Icing on the cake.

TrashMan
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by TrashMan »

Overkill Engine wrote:
TrashMan wrote: That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.
I have to disagree. From observation I would say that the usual Loroi tactic is not to stand ground and slug it out, more likely it is a tendency to strike and withdraw before taking casualties.

This Umiak commander has been noticed to be more...cunning/observant/subtle than most, and will do uncharacteristic things as well. Such as try to find out why the enemy is holding position instead of withdrawing.

So instead of just stampeding into enemy lines like a runaway bull, it instead opts to attempt communication to glean further information if possible. Any information is better than no information.

And information is king in total war. Sure, resources and personnel are great to have, but they are not worth nearly as much as you'd think without knowing where to allocate them, or at least, knowing where *not* to allocate them.

This Umiak commander might just be taking the long view of knowing that you can destroy an enemy later in exchange for the one time chance at information now. This is just a battle, not the entire war.

And if you get to mind screw a noted enemy commander whether by truth or lies while doing it? Icing on the cake.

And what information did he gain from that conversation? None. He did all the talking. The only one that got information out of this conversation were the Loroi.
They found out that a Umiak fleet is bypassing Azimol and that the Umiak now have the tech to prevent farseer detection.
What information would be worth leaking that info to the Loroi?

You just don't give enemy any info without getting something more valuable in return. You also don't jeapordize vital fleet actions out of curiosity.

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Siber
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Siber »

There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.
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Sprawl63
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Sprawl63 »

Siber wrote:There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.
On page 59 Tempo explains that two strike groups that arrived before Strike Force 51 were ambushed and destroyed, presumably in a similar fashion.

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Codius_Dak
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Codius_Dak »

Did anyone else notice that he offered asylum to still storm on 88? just before he started the run on sentence about waiting he said a "place to live" perhaps he is fascinated by Stillstorm in the fashion that Patton was with Rommel. And from a stand point of imminent victory her dying is a gross waste. perhaps he is trying to save here and her command out of respect.
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Ktrain
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Ktrain »

Or maybe it is only a war of extermination from one side's point of view (the xenocidial one).
OUTSIDER UPDATE => HALF LIFE 3 CONFIRMED?

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Rosen_Ritter_1
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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Rosen_Ritter_1 »

Ktrain wrote:Or maybe it is only a war of extermination from one side's point of view (the xenocidial one).
Didn't the Umiak response to Loroi guerilla warfare become bombing them from orbit?


Telepathy just gives the Loroi to big of an advantage to try to rule over them as a client race. Not with the numbers they currently have.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Nemo »

Siber wrote:There is a potential additional option. That option being that the farseeing is being jammed, and the Umiak have noticed this fact by watching the presumably unusual Loroi actions in this system, but the Umiak themselves are not responsible. Thus by lying Kliktik potentially scares useful information out of the Loroi, and at the same time sows disinformation in the Loroi ranks, making them potentially fear a threat that in actuality doesn't exist, or at least doesn't in the form they believe it does. Even that aside, by telling the Loroi that he's jamming their farseeing when he isn't, he could potentially shake loose some information on what is really going on, and that could be valuable information indeed.

No, it doesn't seem like he leaned much in the exchange, but that doesn't mean it was foolish to try.

Cunning, yes, but if hes bluffing about being the cause of the jamming he over played his hand with the notion of major fleets pressing on Azimol. If command receives a report of this dialogue without a concurrent invasion and they will be forced to assume Tiky was grasping here, not just about the fleets but about the jamming as well.

I do like the notion that maybe this is all a ploy on his part to figure out if the Loroi farseers are jammed by some unknown force for the same reason I think everyone else would like to think so, it means the Loroi aren't screwed. Or that everyone is equally screwed by the bigger badder guy turning the space nazis and commies into instant hippies (just add humans!). But, from a narrative stand point, I can easily see the Loroi being offered up as a sacrifice to the gods of drama. I keep remembering reading somewhere that Ellen was supposed to be tethered to Alex, and found lifeless when he comes to floating in space, but that was dropped as being too dark. Knowing it was entertained seriously makes me think Arioch is perfectly capable of putting together a very dark narrative, but discerning enough to leave out the parts that might make folks squeamish. Makes it difficult to know which way hes going to take the story :D

Or maybe it is only a war of extermination from one side's point of view (the xenocidial one).
Which would be... neither? I mean, neither side has set out to kill everyone but themselves, just anyone strong enough to resist them. Ok you can make an argument for the Umiak given that they work their subjects to death, but they do that to themselves too. Or maybe... genocidal...? Sure, but then, both? Each has a history of expunging others who stand in their way.

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Re: Stillstorm laughed...

Post by Karst45 »

TrashMan wrote: That's precisely my point. Kliktiks actions make sense ONLY if he's telling the truth about the Umiak offensive.
and that actually what make his move so effective. if he only make sense if he's telling the truth then lying seem less plausible.

For moral of an already understaffed loroi crew it enough for them to actually question this situation and thus create doubt. And if your best interdiction fleet actually have doubt.....

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