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Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread 
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Question: Alex, as the new appointed "ambassador" of Humanity, has a real concern regarding how primitive and powerless are his people in comparation with both Loroi and Shells, so he will probably want to hide this fact as long as possible while trying to find out some bargain chip which can catch the interest of his current hosts (besides the Lotai).
Problem is, for Loroi is easy to make an educate guess of the current technological level of Humanity from the Bellarmine 's remains and Jardin' s clothes.
What can Alex do?


Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:06 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
raistlin34 wrote:
Question: Alex, as the new appointed "ambassador" of Humanity, has a real concern regarding how primitive and powerless are his people in comparation with both Loroi and Shells, so he will probably want to hide this fact as long as possible while trying to find out some bargain chip which can catch the interest of his current hosts (besides the Lotai).
Problem is, for Loroi is easy to make an educate guess of the current technological level of Humanity from the Bellarmine 's remains and Jardin' s clothes.
What can Alex do?

Not much. Even if he could conceal the items of human technology from the Loroi (which he obviously can't at this point), I'm not sure it would be a wise diplomatic tactic to lie about your capabilities to a prospective ally, when, if the alliance succeeds, they will very soon learn of the deception. Considering that the number one insult to a Loroi is to knowingly lie.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
raistlin34 wrote:
Question: Alex, as the new appointed "ambassador" of Humanity, has a real concern regarding how primitive and powerless are his people in comparation with both Loroi and Shells, so he will probably want to hide this fact as long as possible while trying to find out some bargain chip which can catch the interest of his current hosts (besides the Lotai).
Problem is, for Loroi is easy to make an educate guess of the current technological level of Humanity from the Bellarmine 's remains and Jardin' s clothes.
What can Alex do?

Not much. Even if he could conceal the items of human technology from the Loroi (which he obviously can't at this point), I'm not sure it would be a wise diplomatic tactic to lie about your capabilities to a prospective ally, when, if the alliance succeeds, they will very soon learn of the deception. Considering that the number one insult to a Loroi is to knowingly lie.

Honesty, just say that we are nowhere near on the technical or industrial level. Right now at best we could give them locations for and even joint man some listening posts. The Loroi have already shown a willingness to give technology to there allies but even so it will take months if not years to get basic production going let alone fleets. They could offer us ships (highly unlikely but not impossible) then we have to undergo training on their equipment and gear. Again years. Jarden can not hide these facts, the Loroi have worked with more primitive species in the past as well. We could not work on Loroi vessel as communication would be very difficult us not being telepathic and even highly resistant to it.

Now we do not know what human industrial capacity is but we could work as sub contractors for munitions and the like but the last thing the Loroi want is another “ally” they would have to defend. In addition, they are barely holding the line as is so a major offensive from human space would be unlikely in the near future.

We do have something very good that we can offer, fanaticism. Humans will strap themselves into any civi space tug fill it with explosives and ram it right up the enemies rear ends like a poorly lubed Hollywood actor at a preschool. We also have the concept of “if it’s crazy but it works...” itself based almost completely on our belief of screw you hold my beer. We are for lack of a better word, insane and many do not care and will do anything just to kill the enemy. This is even more note worthy when you take are very short lives into account.

We did not win the genetic lottery like the Loroi did. We are not long lives, telepathic, incredibly strong, nor hyper intelligent... But, we are very creative. Hell we spend most of our time and effort looking for entertainment and adrenaline rushes. I have a feeling that man for man we probably will have one of the best forces in the galaxy for combat operations. Also we do not know how to fight on a galactic level and so we might take different approaches than the Union that fit more in line with our traditional combat forms. Further more, our scientists are very innovative and we have many hair-brained schemes. We could be a great asset to the fight but on e again, it will take time. There is no point in lying to the Loroi, they will gain nothing from attacking us and have no reason to. That is how I would do it.


Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:45 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
raistlin34 wrote:
Question: Alex, as the new appointed "ambassador" of Humanity, has a real concern regarding how primitive and powerless are his people in comparation with both Loroi and Shells, so he will probably want to hide this fact as long as possible while trying to find out some bargain chip which can catch the interest of his current hosts (besides the Lotai).
Problem is, for Loroi is easy to make an educate guess of the current technological level of Humanity from the Bellarmine 's remains and Jardin' s clothes.
What can Alex do?

Not much. Even if he could conceal the items of human technology from the Loroi (which he obviously can't at this point), I'm not sure it would be a wise diplomatic tactic to lie about your capabilities to a prospective ally, when, if the alliance succeeds, they will very soon learn of the deception. Considering that the number one insult to a Loroi is to knowingly lie.

Speaking of lies. I have often thought about this question... What would Loroi think of Sun Tzu "Аrt of War" if they read it? This book probably has the greatest influence on the military of mankind... and it's main thesis is "All warfare is based on deception". Did this some way make humanity deceitful and not trustworthy in the eyes?

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Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:29 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Chekist_Felix wrote:
Arioch wrote:
raistlin34 wrote:
Question: Alex, as the new appointed "ambassador" of Humanity, has a real concern regarding how primitive and powerless are his people in comparation with both Loroi and Shells, so he will probably want to hide this fact as long as possible while trying to find out some bargain chip which can catch the interest of his current hosts (besides the Lotai).
Problem is, for Loroi is easy to make an educate guess of the current technological level of Humanity from the Bellarmine 's remains and Jardin' s clothes.
What can Alex do?

Not much. Even if he could conceal the items of human technology from the Loroi (which he obviously can't at this point), I'm not sure it would be a wise diplomatic tactic to lie about your capabilities to a prospective ally, when, if the alliance succeeds, they will very soon learn of the deception. Considering that the number one insult to a Loroi is to knowingly lie.

Speaking of lies. I have often thought about this question... What would Loroi think of Sun Tzu "Аrt of War" if they read it? This book probably has the greatest influence on the military of mankind... and it's main thesis is "All warfare is based on deception". Did this some way make humanity deceitful and not trustworthy in the eyes?

Honesty is something that's expected of a friend; not so much of a declared enemy. Though I have not read Sun Tzu recently, I believe the deception he refers to is regarding feints and misdirection, in the attempt to achieve strategic or tactical surprise, not literally sending false messages to an opponent. Once you are at war, giving offense to or expecting trust from an opponent is generally not an issue except in the most courtly and ritualized forms of warfare; there's generally not much direct communication between warring parties.

There were many different eras of warfare in Loroi history; some were literally barbaric, others courtly and highly ritualized, in which the opposing parties would meet at an agreed-upon location at an agreed-upon time and go at it, and may the best "man" win. In the modern Loroi military culture, misdirection and surprise are a considered a necessary element of warfare; some of the more conservative and courtly commanders would prefer an honorable "stand-up fight" to "sneaking around" if the situation permitted it, but in a desperate war against an opponent that is infamous for not keeping its promises, that's simply not an option. Military deception that the Loroi would find objectionable are more or less the same things that we find objectionable: switching sides, breaking a flag of truce, masking an attack under the guise of diplomacy, etc. The Loroi are not incapable of deceit, which is why they find it deeply objectionable: otherwise they would not simply not understand it, in which case they probably would have been wiped out a long time ago.

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
I think the Loroi would probably take greater issue with Machiavelli's attributed writings than Sun Tzu, since works such as The Prince deal with the deception and betrayal performed among non-warring groups. Though I'd wager they're fairly familiar with some of the means of governing described therein.

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Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:48 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
There's a big difference between an overt deception and a lie of omission, and even lower than that is to just not supply information that wasn't asked for.


Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:55 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Arioch wrote:
There were many different eras of warfare in Loroi history; some were literally barbaric, others courtly and highly ritualized, in which the opposing parties would meet at an agreed-upon location at an agreed-upon time and go at it, and may the best "man" win. In the modern Loroi military culture, misdirection and surprise are a considered a necessary element of warfare; some of the more conservative and courtly commanders would prefer an honorable "stand-up fight" to "sneaking around" if the situation permitted it, but in a desperate war against an opponent that is infamous for not keeping its promises, that's simply not an option. Military deception that the Loroi would find objectionable are more or less the same things that we find objectionable: switching sides, breaking a flag of truce, masking an attack under the guise of diplomacy, etc. The Loroi are not incapable of deceit, which is why they find it deeply objectionable: otherwise they would not simply not understand it, in which case they probably would have been wiped out a long time ago.


It sounds like the old brass are as grumpy about new ideas among the loroi as they are among humans. Sadly such grumpiness leads to the first machineguns to be placed as artillery (US Civil war)
and when placed correctly massacres on the western front (WW1). In WW2 they disliked the aircraft carriers while preferring the battleships. Eventually it is adapt or die (resign) for thease old brass. In the early days of the Roman Empire it was mounted combat that was looked upon with suspicion and when they finally was forced to included them they used auxiliaries (essentially mercenaries) for this.


Sat Nov 11, 2017 12:49 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
The nature of how thoroughly the civilizations of the galactic empires and peoples have disappeared seems a bit like the Bronze Age collapse around the Mediterranean Sea, in the sense that established civilizations are confronted with a systemic collapse of their societies, and the interdependent nature of how all the nations work to support each other means that they can't simply weather the problem. Societal collapses that aren't the result of some invading force bent on annihilating their foe, tends to result in leaving the big structures in tact, as was the case in the Bronze Age. With all that said, it seems from my perspective that there isn't much mention of precursor mega-structures in the Insider. How likely are we to hear or see some Dyson Swarm or ancient orbiting devices or structures, during Alex's time in the territories of the Loroi and their allies?

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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
CF2 wrote:
The nature of how thoroughly the civilizations of the galactic empires and peoples have disappeared seems a bit like the Bronze Age collapse around the Mediterranean Sea, in the sense that established civilizations are confronted with a systemic collapse of their societies, and the interdependent nature of how all the nations work to support each other means that they can't simply weather the problem. Societal collapses that aren't the result of some invading force bent on annihilating their foe, tends to result in leaving the big structures in tact, as was the case in the Bronze Age. With all that said, it seems from my perspective that there isn't much mention of precursor mega-structures in the Insider. How likely are we to hear or see some Dyson Swarm or ancient orbiting devices or structures, during Alex's time in the territories of the Loroi and their allies?


We do know that a lot of artifact looting has been done. Some megastructures may actually exist, some of them may actually still be i use. However the Soia where know for their Deathstar like spherical ships. Apparently they could move these so most likely they used mostly a mobile system for themselves. It is also possible that they have a Soia'n heartland somewhere full of megastructures and their reason for those giant ships where resource collection. Thee reason why they are not seen anymore could be that they have since gone digital. They may very much still be around but if they all live as uploads in computers they would not need much of a visible footprint anymore.


Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:59 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
oh, the wastelands are so named, because the Soians removed most useful ressources witht heir ressource collecting ships.
Then the Humanity is between the Loroi and the old coreland of the Soians.

And then possibly the Soians are hiding inside Dyson Spheres, which make the wastelands look even more wasted, as tehy are lacking stars (which are now hidden inside Dyson Spheres).

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Mon Nov 13, 2017 1:01 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Sweforce wrote:
Thee reason why they are not seen anymore could be that they have since gone digital. They may very much still be around but if they all live as uploads in computers...


Like the Historians?

CJSF


Mon Nov 13, 2017 5:15 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Krulle wrote:
oh, the wastelands are so named, because the Soians removed most useful ressources witht heir ressource collecting ships.
Then the Humanity is between the Loroi and the old coreland of the Soians.

And then possibly the Soians are hiding inside Dyson Spheres, which make the wastelands look even more wasted, as tehy are lacking stars (which are now hidden inside Dyson Spheres).


Dyson spheres or swarms are probably quite noticible since they are almost certainly going to be emitting in the infrared bands, but not visible light.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 6:56 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
Like brown dwarfs. Not much ressources to be expected...

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Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:29 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
hi hi

I wonder if, at some point in the story, we'll learn more about the Well of Souls, and whether or not it has any alien megastructure in relation to it.

If the wastelands were used for massive resource extraction efforts by the Soia, they might have moved on in the meantime, leaving very little behind.

(The more we learn about exoplanetary systems, the more I think we're learning not to make broad assumptions about what they will be like. The recent discovery of a massive jupiter/brown dwarf around a tiny red dwarf in particular, goes to show that a stars size might not be a perfect indicator of how much stuff is orbiting it. A rather direct contradiction of old school accretion theories.)


Mon Nov 13, 2017 10:37 am
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
cacambo43 wrote:
Sweforce wrote:
Thee reason why they are not seen anymore could be that they have since gone digital. They may very much still be around but if they all live as uploads in computers...


Like the Historians?

CJSF


There are biological historians but it is entirely possible that the AI constructs they send out on diplomatic missions may be uploads.


Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:06 pm
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Post Re: Miscellaneous Loroi question-and-answer thread
If the Historians do have uploads, I expect that not only are they not the constructs, but that they very carefully keep the constructs from knowing about them. No chance of info leaks that way.


Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:57 pm
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